Highonglue Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 I understand that some players feels that it's a waste of time and somewhat boring to fight a presumable losing battle in a warzone, but the "feature" that makes it possible to desert a warzone without any penalties at all is ruining many warzones that in reality could have been turned around, and could have been won. Right now this "feature" is ruining many warzones by itself but also the staying players gaming experience, last night I counted how many players that came and left a in few warzones and in each and every one of them there were more than 20 deserters. Some of them left as soon as they saw who the other members in the group where and some others left as soon as they saw that their team were straggling in some way, they just stayed a few seconds before deserting their team. Something urgently needs to be done about this matter as the deserters both block other players possibilities to get in (and get rewards..), but more importantly they also spend the staying and paying customer base precious time. So.. my suggestion is to implement a time penalty with Exponential growth for deserters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ACLucius Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 There needs to be something done, but before that there needs to be changes in the warzone grouping system itself. They need to make more brackets so that people who are level 1x aren't grouped with people who are 4x. As soon as they add in cross-server warzones, they should make level brackets 10-19, 20-29, 30-39, and 40-49 and leave the 50's in their own bracket, or even break them up based on gear/valor level. The warzone system is still flawed in many ways, but adding a penalty system in too early and not breaking up people into groups is a bad way to go. It doesn't matter so much if you are given the same stats as a 49, if you are still 20 levels below someone else, you don't have much of a chance against them because you haven't learned any of your higher skills. Put a level 14 sniper up against a level 34 marauder, the marauder will come out on top because the sniper does not have enough control skills to keep him at a distance long enough to kill him, especially with a marauders defensive skills. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HelinCarnate Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 So you have a penalty to start a new WZ which would make it faster to just finish the one you are on. Those that see the fight as futile would stop fighting and let the other team win. How is that more enjoyable? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HelinCarnate Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 (edited) There needs to be something done, but before that there needs to be changes in the warzone grouping system itself. They need to make more brackets so that people who are level 1x aren't grouped with people who are 4x. As soon as they add in cross-server warzones, they should make level brackets 10-19, 20-29, 30-39, and 40-49 and leave the 50's in their own bracket, or even break them up based on gear/valor level. The warzone system is still flawed in many ways, but adding a penalty system in too early and not breaking up people into groups is a bad way to go. It doesn't matter so much if you are given the same stats as a 49, if you are still 20 levels below someone else, you don't have much of a chance against them because you haven't learned any of your higher skills. Put a level 14 sniper up against a level 34 marauder, the marauder will come out on top because the sniper does not have enough control skills to keep him at a distance long enough to kill him, especially with a marauders defensive skills. 1 vs 1 this can be true. However since it is a team based warzone, the sinper has other party members to keep the focus off of them. I am leveling up a sniper and a sage for pvp currently and most of the time the sage is number 1 in healing, even though they are lower level and the sniper is on the high end for damage and kill counts. Your statements are not based in fact. I do agree however, that once the cross server pvp comes in, premades should fight vs other premades and solo folks should be bunched together as well. Edited February 13, 2012 by HelinCarnate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Highonglue Posted February 13, 2012 Author Share Posted February 13, 2012 So you have a penalty to start a new WZ which would make it faster to just finish the one you are on. Those that see the fight as futile would stop fighting and let the other team win. How is that more enjoyable? The carebear approach where players don't do anything in the warzones is also an issue that urgently needs to be addressed, the crap that's going on in the warzone Alderaan is horrific. To watch 4-5 players go into the Alderaan WZ just to sit out the time doing nothing, which actually gives them points, at a base is just ridiculous. The solution for this is to enforce engagement both with serious point reduction if you don't engage in fights in a set time amount and a way to kick deserters from WZ's in the same fashion as it was possible to do in WAR. And honestly, do you really think that todays system with no penalties is good? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Highonglue Posted February 13, 2012 Author Share Posted February 13, 2012 (edited) ...... Edited February 13, 2012 by Highonglue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Highonglue Posted February 13, 2012 Author Share Posted February 13, 2012 (edited) There needs to be something done, but before that there needs to be changes in the warzone grouping system itself. They need to make more brackets so that people who are level 1x aren't grouped with people who are 4x. As soon as they add in cross-server warzones, they should make level brackets 10-19, 20-29, 30-39, and 40-49 and leave the 50's in their own bracket, or even break them up based on gear/valor level. The warzone system is still flawed in many ways, but adding a penalty system in too early and not breaking up people into groups is a bad way to go. It doesn't matter so much if you are given the same stats as a 49, if you are still 20 levels below someone else, you don't have much of a chance against them because you haven't learned any of your higher skills. Put a level 14 sniper up against a level 34 marauder, the marauder will come out on top because the sniper does not have enough control skills to keep him at a distance long enough to kill him, especially with a marauders defensive skills. I agree that the melee vs. ranged also is a matter that needs a real overhaul, right now ranged attacks are kinda pointless as every melee either can drag their opponents to them, jump to them och run fast as hell to them, and because they can do that all the time holding a distance is totally impossible. This also prevents all kind of interesting tactics in larger battles, the only tactics that's plausible right now is focused fire and chain stuns, and that is really boring, at least in my opinion... Sniper however is probably the most overpowered class in PvP in the game atm, check the scoreboards in level 50 WZ's and you will be amazed and stunned about the incredible amount of damage they dish out, how many kills they get and how much points they receive. Last night I witnessed several snipers dishing out more than 500 K damage in lots of WZ's where no one else got above half that amount, and these guys didn't even have full champ gear. And yes, I have a level 50 marauder and a level 50 merc so I have experienced both sides of this. Edited February 13, 2012 by Highonglue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mekare Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 I agree, there needs to be penalties for deserting. I strongly disagree on needing more brackets though. One of the biggest appeals of this game (for my guild mostly anyway), is that we dont need to all be the same level to play together in pvp. As for people going in on lvl 10s and getting owned by 49s... a little coordination and thats not an issue. My guild has on countless times gone in on a bunch of lvl 15-30s and dominated the BG. On the same token, my 49 juggernaut has gone in and gotten ripped apart by lvl 20 troopers. Not to mention, you put in brackets, and you will get twinks. Then people will QQ about low lvl pvp being filled with twinks. I would rather have normal players with scaling, than a bunch of bored twinks 2-shotting everyone. Skill and teamwork > how many abilities you have on your bars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HelinCarnate Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 (edited) The carebear approach where players don't do anything in the warzones is also an issue that urgently needs to be addressed, the crap that's going on in the warzone Alderaan is horrific. To watch 4-5 players go into the Alderaan WZ just to sit out the time doing nothing, which actually gives them points, at a base is just ridiculous. The solution for this is to enforce engagement both with serious point reduction if you don't engage in fights in a set time amount and a way to kick deserters from WZ's in the same fashion as it was possible to do in WAR. And honestly, do you really think that todays system with no penalties is good? I have never seen 4-5 players sit and do nothing at a base. Never. The worst I saw once was 3. At that time I said to the last person that got there, "we only need 2 guarding, come help at the middle". And they moved to the middle. Most times you can just say "West clear" or something to that effect and the people that were not guarding that area to begin with will leave on their own. But if you want to punnish people for leaving a WZ, you will end up with more people actually doing nothing helpfull but still doing just enough to not get kicked. Edited February 13, 2012 by HelinCarnate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BacklashEH Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 I don't think the game should be catered to quitters either, same deal with afkers. While I've been put into an already in progress match where my team came back and won, it's usually closer to being put in at the end and a waste of my time. Although it is hilarious when you see some of the constant quitters leave and then your team ends up winning. I think the way to handle it is to add an alternative for the daily, and make it so that the deserter debuff accrues and resets every week. Maybe the first 2 are free, then after that you get a 15min debuff, and it increases by 15minutes after. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HelinCarnate Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 I don't think the game should be catered to quitters either, same deal with afkers. While I've been put into an already in progress match where my team came back and won, it's usually closer to being put in at the end and a waste of my time. Although it is hilarious when you see some of the constant quitters leave and then your team ends up winning. I think the way to handle it is to add an alternative for the daily, and make it so that the deserter debuff accrues and resets every week. Maybe the first 2 are free, then after that you get a 15min debuff, and it increases by 15minutes after. The other day I got kicked out of the game 2 times while entering a warzone. The day after (yesterday) I was kiced out of the game 2 times as well and another 1 time just kicked to the character select. You are sayaing that I should now have to wait 45min to get into a warzone? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Highonglue Posted February 13, 2012 Author Share Posted February 13, 2012 I have never seen 4-5 players sit and do nothing at a base. Never. The worst I saw once was 3. At that time I said to the last person that got there, "we only need 2 guarding, come help at the middle". And they moved to the middle. Most times you can just say "West clear" or something to that effect and the people that were not guarding that area to begin with will leave on their own. But if you want to punnish people for leaving a WZ, you will end up with more people actually doing nothing helpfull but still doing just enough to not get kicked. Either you haven't played WZ's enough at level 50 (and I don't claim to be a veteran, atm I'm just at valor level 35) or you are kidding because it happens in almost every loosing battle in the Alderaan WZ. If you check out your own "homebase" (the one to the left) when things start to go sour if you don't believe me, often there is a couple of invisibles and a couple mages healing themselves for healing rewards and defender points, and no they aint moving their asses off that base. I really don't understand why you defend this behavior, are you perhaps one of those that abuse the game this way and desert the losing teams for your own benefit? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Highonglue Posted February 13, 2012 Author Share Posted February 13, 2012 The other day I got kicked out of the game 2 times while entering a warzone. The day after (yesterday) I was kiced out of the game 2 times as well and another 1 time just kicked to the character select. You are sayaing that I should now have to wait 45min to get into a warzone? What happened you is a bug and that is a totally different issue, most of the ones that desert their teams does it intentionally and that is what I'm are addressing here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sky_walkerPL Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 Bug is a bug, true. Disconnects on the other hand are different issue. And I get these at least once a day, often happening in Warzone. (It's not ISP issue - I use teamspeak at the time and never had any disconnects while getting one in TOR) Last thing I'd like to see is getting D/C from winning warzone 1 minute before the end and than being banned from re-joining for next 45 minutes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daisai Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 I understand that some players feels that it's a waste of time and somewhat boring to fight a presumable losing battle in a warzone, but the "feature" that makes it possible to desert a warzone without any penalties at all is ruining many warzones that in reality could have been turned around, and could have been won. Right now this "feature" is ruining many warzones by itself but also the staying players gaming experience, last night I counted how many players that came and left a in few warzones and in each and every one of them there were more than 20 deserters. Some of them left as soon as they saw who the other members in the group where and some others left as soon as they saw that their team were straggling in some way, they just stayed a few seconds before deserting their team. Something urgently needs to be done about this matter as the deserters both block other players possibilities to get in (and get rewards..), but more importantly they also spend the staying and paying customer base precious time. So.. my suggestion is to implement a time penalty with Exponential growth for deserters. First give this game end game pvp then you might want to consider these penalty's Its simply not worth the trouble doing a warzone like huttbal when you know you are going to lose. Oh and in case you get leave people will just semi afk in a warzone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Highonglue Posted February 13, 2012 Author Share Posted February 13, 2012 (edited) First give this game end game pvp then you might want to consider these penalty's Its simply not worth the trouble doing a warzone like huttbal when you know you are going to lose. Oh and in case you get leave people will just semi afk in a warzone. This is actually exact the attitude that creates the whole problem, selfish players that don't give a damn if they are ruining other paying customers gaming experience. BTW, if the result is semi-AFK'ers then we just need a motivation feature that lets us kick the deserters out our self, a system just like in the "warzones" in Warhammer (which actually worked great) would work just great, then the "semi-AFK'ers" would get the penalties they so well deserves. Edited February 13, 2012 by Highonglue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HelinCarnate Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 Either you haven't played WZ's enough at level 50 (and I don't claim to be a veteran, atm I'm just at valor level 35) or you are kidding because it happens in almost every loosing battle in the Alderaan WZ. If you check out your own "homebase" (the one to the left) when things start to go sour if you don't believe me, often there is a couple of invisibles and a couple mages healing themselves for healing rewards and defender points, and no they aint moving their asses off that base. I really don't understand why you defend this behavior, are you perhaps one of those that abuse the game this way and desert the losing teams for your own benefit? I am in WZs all the time, at least a dozen each day, and at most when I play there are 2 people guarding that area even when that is the only area left. How do I know this? Because I am normally the one left after everyone clears the area and takes off leaving that area unguarded. (another issue in itself) Also, I am not defending any behavior. Just stating what will be the result if people get their way and "punnish" the people that leave when they think things are going south. You end up with those usefull idiots on your team doing nothing instead of being replace by a random warm body, which in many cases will be better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HelinCarnate Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 (edited) The solution for this is to enforce engagement both with serious point reduction if you don't engage in fights in a set time amount and a way to kick deserters from WZ's in the same fashion as it was possible to do in WAR. So you sit at a door in voidstar and the other team is intent on taking the opposite door. You should have a penalty for making sure that no one trys to sneek over to the other door? Same with the turret control area in the civil war area. Should the guy that keeps one area safe get a penalty just because no one on the other team decided to attack? Should the stealth user that sits by the goal line, catches the ball and scores and then hides again, never being attacked or attacking anyone else get a penalty because he helps his team win? The games are about completing an objective, not fighting. Fighting is one way to coplete the objectives, but it is not required. Edited February 13, 2012 by HelinCarnate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HelinCarnate Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 (edited) What happened you is a bug and that is a totally different issue, most of the ones that desert their teams does it intentionally and that is what I'm are addressing here. How do you determine that soemeone was kicked by a random bug and not by pulling the plug on their modem? Edited February 13, 2012 by HelinCarnate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Highonglue Posted February 13, 2012 Author Share Posted February 13, 2012 How do you determine that soemeone was kicked by a random bug and not by pulling the plug on their modem? Most of those that desert their teams openly admits that they choose to do it, and the ones that get kicked by bugs are such a small percentage that time punishment is well worth it anyway. But of c should the bug your referring to be prioritized so that it's even fewer that gets hit by it, I really don't understand how you can justify that a rare bug that hits very very few is a reason to ruin the game play for lots and lots of other paying customers. So, back to the real issue, why do you defend deserters that ruins the game play for others just for their own convenience? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Highonglue Posted February 13, 2012 Author Share Posted February 13, 2012 So you sit at a door in voidstar and the other team is intent on taking the opposite door. You should have a penalty for making sure that no one trys to sneek over to the other door? Same with the turret control area in the civil war area. Should the guy that keeps one area safe get a penalty just because no one on the other team decided to attack? Should the stealth user that sits by the goal line, catches the ball and scores and then hides again, never being attacked or attacking anyone else get a penalty because he helps his team win? The games are about completing an objective, not fighting. Fighting is one way to coplete the objectives, but it is not required. Who said that one or two real defenders should be manually kicked by the other players? You know that I'm talking about "semi-AFK'ers" but still you keep dragging up extremely weird scenarios that would happen once in a lifetime, why? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BBQedGamer Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 Personally, I don't mind people leaving before the match starts. There can be many reasons for doing so and they can easily (and should) be replaced. What I find the most offensive are the players who desert, often with commentary, in mid-battle when they find they are on the losing side. These are the players I'd like to add to a personal blacklist (as a deserter) to avoid in future combat. Perhaps match making will take mid-battle desertion into account as part of the process and group like minded players together. May they enjoy each other's company. Although that may be a bit extreme. A debuff to prevent them from re-entering a war zone immediately after desertion would probably be best with harsher/longer penalties depending on the frequency of the desertions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HelinCarnate Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 (edited) Most of those that desert their teams openly admits that they choose to do it, So we should only penalize people who openly admit that they do it? and the ones that get kicked by bugs are such a small percentage that time punishment is well worth it anyway. What percentage is that exactly? How do you know what the percentage is? Do you work for BW and have access to this information? But of c should the bug your referring to be prioritized so that it's even fewer that gets hit by it, I really don't understand how you can justify that a rare bug that hits very very few is a reason to ruin the game play for lots and lots of other paying customers. The people who leave are paying customers too. I'm guessing dealing with a team that does not know how to pass a ball or communicate to the team when their area is getting overrun before it happens isnstead of after can ruin the game play for lots of those people. Why is your money more important than someone elses? So, back to the real issue, why do you defend deserters that ruins the game play for others just for their own convenience? All I am saying is that if you penalize them for leaving, you will end up also end up having people that got kicked from WZs for technical reasons that will be penalized as well. In addition, if it would be faster for the deserter to just let the other team win and queue up another WZ vs leave and enter the queue again, that is what they will do. Your quest to punnish those that behave in a way in wich you do not agree will only cause more problems. Edited February 13, 2012 by HelinCarnate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Highonglue Posted February 13, 2012 Author Share Posted February 13, 2012 (edited) So we should only penalize people who openly admit that they do it? If they admit it or not doesn't matter at all. --------------- What percentage is that exactly? How do you know what the percentage is? Do you work for BW and have access to this information? Nope, but me, my friends and the guild I'm in (with about 300 members) discuss things like this so I have some ideas about how often it happens.. --------------- The people who leave are paying customers too. I'm guessing dealing with a team that does not know how to pass a ball or communicate to the team when their area is getting overrun before it happens isnstead of after can ruin the game play for lots of those people. Why is your money more important than someone elses? Because we play the game as it is intended and the game in itself can't be intended to ruin anyone's game play.. -------------------------- All I am saying is that if you penalize them for leaving, you will end up also end up having people that got kicked from WZs for technical reasons that will be penalized as well. In addition, if it would be faster for the deserter to just let the other team win and queue up another WZ vs leave and enter the queue again, that is what they will do. Your quest to punnish those that behave in a way in wich you do not agree will only cause more problems. Yes, but now were.. A) talking about a extreme minority and B) that's a bug that has to be fixed. Just because you don't care about anyone else then yourself and your own game play doesn't mean that it's good business for the producers, or even a good thing for he majority of the players. Edited February 13, 2012 by Highonglue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Highonglue Posted February 13, 2012 Author Share Posted February 13, 2012 But besides that it's incredible easy to see who manually left, who got timed out and who got kicked out as the time frames for the two later will show who did what.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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