lethality operative help

[rebate]

I have a lethality sniper. I enjoy the game play a lot but want to do the stealth route. LEthality does not have to just pad numbers to make big gains in a wz. A good lethality will know when to snipe, leg shot, or do what ever we have to in order to win the WZ.

 

 

The lethality tree does not make a lot of sense to me with 10m ranges for operatives. I have never played an operative but want to try it out.

 

Is lethality borked for operatives or am I missing something? I can not imaging staying at a 10 m range while waiting on dots to tick.

 

At 35m with the a lethality sniper it is not an issue you can adjust while your dots tick.

 

Looking over the operative it appears you need to burst down to survive. Lethality does not seem like it can burst down much and it puts you in the danger 10 m zone.

 

Any help or suggestion would be greatly appreciated.

Edited February 12, 2012 by rebate

[Ojas]

I have a lethality sniper. I enjoy the game play a lot but want to do the stealth route. LEthality does not have to just pad numbers to make big gains in a wz. A good lethality will know when to snipe, leg shot, do what ever we have to in order to win the WZ.

 

 

 

The lethality tree does not make a lot of sense to me with 10m ranges for operatives. I have never done any operative play but want to try it out.

 

Is lethality borked for operatives or am I missing something? I can not imaging staying at a 10 m range all while waiting on dots to tick. At 35m with the sniper it is not an issue you can more and adjust before they can get on you.

 

Looking over the operative it appears you need to burst down to survive. Lethality does not seem like it can burst down much and it puts you in the danger 10 m zone.

 

Any help or suggestion would be greatly appreciated.

 

Lethality is unplayable as an operative.

 

Shiv, hiddenstrike and kills grant tactical advantage.

 

So, as a ranged class you don't get tactical advantage so you can't use your main ability in lethatlity.

 

Energy cost is absurd for lethality.

 

Straight up unplayable.

 

 

In terms of roles.

 

I think the combat dancer in SWG was better at the damage role than lethality operative is at the damage role in SWTOR.

 

These devs are beyond horrible. They wont admit they are only balancing the game to keep subscribers (their sorcs/mercs).

 

The only people playing lethality op are those who do not know its broken.

 

These devs are so bad and ****** this entire operative community it should seriously be a crime. We are being ****ed so bioware can make their sorcs happy.

 

All there is too it.

[rebate]

Thanks for your opinion. The Op seem to squishy to be in melee range trying to kite at 10m while watching poison tick

[Sogar]

Well, if a lethality could just stay at 10m range it would work very easily but right now it is a hit and run spec because you need those shiv (and occasional backstab) to get those tactical advantages which let's you cull. Between all your melee moves and cull (or double cull) a lethality operative have a lot more burst than most DoT spec but it is a melee class with a few ranged move (basically you DoT people as you run in melee).

 

The other option is to be a healer hybrid and stay at medium range putting HoTs and injections coupling 2 culls to burst your DoTed target.

[rebate]

why not do like the powertech and just make the range 30 meter or give your dots a chance to proc tact advantage

[Sogar]

 

The only people playing lethality op are those who do not know its broken.

 

These devs are so bad and ****** this entire operative community it should seriously be a crime. We are being ****ed so bioware can make their sorcs happy.

 

All there is too it.

 

I play a lethality op and my main is a shadow that I respecced balance recently (for raid purpose). I won't say the lethality op is broken but it is obviously harder to pull out well than the shadow.

 

Having to melee without force speed is one reason, the other one is the energy management (and tactical advantage management). A balance shadow/madness sin can just spam his DoTs and double strikes as he wish without having to look at his force bar.

 

Does I feel like my lethality op is subpar though? Nope, because there are three things that I can do a ton better than on my shadow : spot heal, burst a target down and pull crazy AoEs. Is that worth extra difficulty for playing the class? Hell yeah even though I would like them to tone the energy costs a bit.

[Hoff]

Concealment still does more sustained DPS than lethality operative, has higher burst, has better CC, has better survivability, and has better energy management. Sithwarrior.com has the numbers crunched showing concealment still does more DPS (mainly because the Acid Blade DoT just poops all over corrosive grenade and the lethality damage buff talents blow). Seriously, my pyrotech powertech does more DoT DPS with incendiary missile (1 GCD) than both corrosive dart and corrosive grenade combined. Plus, rail shot does just as much damage as cull and has higher armor pen. Plus, rail shot is way cheaper to use and is often reset and made free by talents.

[rebate]

i appreciate everyone's opinion

[Sogar]

Concealment still does more sustained DPS than lethality operative, has higher burst, has better CC, has better survivability, and has better energy management. Sithwarrior.com has the numbers crunched showing concealment still does more DPS (mainly because the Acid Blade DoT just poops all over corrosive grenade and the lethality damage buff talents blow). Seriously, my pyrotech powertech does more DoT DPS with incendiary missile (1 GCD) than both corrosive dart and corrosive grenade combined. Plus, rail shot does just as much damage as cull and has higher armor pen. Plus, rail shot is way cheaper to use and is often reset and made free by talents.

 

Higher burst : clearly concealment

 

better CC : well concealment is better on the single target department for sure with a 2s immobilize and a knock down. All lethality has is a 30% AoE slow at 30m range (which is far from useless)

 

better survivability : well it's not as simple as you state it. It's mainly a matter of 2% health every 3s or having your shield up 50% of the time instead of 33%. Personaly, I prefer the shield buff.

 

better energy management : concealment for sure. The main problem of lethality is the cost of its DoTs. Renewing your DoTs mid fight really cut down your rotation for a while. Lethal purpose give you tons of energy but that does not change the fact that you will have to eat through that pool for DoT renewal and be starve for a while. Cull damage/energy ratio is far from being impressive too.

 

Sithwarrior.com numbers : Well the calculations there for the op aren't really serious for an easy to understand reason : they don't take armor into consideration (well from what I read but I can be wrong). That and lethal purpose was not taken into account either (which makes a big difference). That's why I don't think they are a good representation.

 

So no, in a real fight lethality should have a better sustainable damage output but the difference is far from what it should be (because of reasons you mentioned aka poor buff talents (seriously what are they waiting for to buff devouring microbes) and energy management).

 

As for the Pwertech comparison ... I can't tell anything. I'm curious though, what's the damage of your missile? (I guess you are level 50).

[Hoff]

Higher burst : clearly concealment

 

better CC : well concealment is better on the single target department for sure with a 2s immobilize and a knock down. All lethality has is a 30% AoE slow at 30m range (which is far from useless)

 

better survivability : well it's not as simple as you state it. It's mainly a matter of 2% health every 3s or having your shield up 50% of the time instead of 33%. Personaly, I prefer the shield buff.

 

better energy management : concealment for sure. The main problem of lethality is the cost of its DoTs. Renewing your DoTs mid fight really cut down your rotation for a while. Lethal purpose give you tons of energy but that does not change the fact that you will have to eat through that pool for DoT renewal and be starve for a while. Cull damage/energy ratio is far from being impressive too.

 

Sithwarrior.com numbers : Well the calculations there for the op aren't really serious for an easy to understand reason : they don't take armor into consideration (well from what I read but I can be wrong). That and lethal purpose was not taken into account either (which makes a big difference). That's why I don't think they are a good representation.

 

So no, in a real fight lethality should have a better sustainable damage output but the difference is far from what it should be (because of reasons you mentioned aka poor buff talents (seriously what are they waiting for to buff devouring microbes) and energy management).

 

As for the Pwertech comparison ... I can't tell anything. I'm curious though, what's the damage of your missile? (I guess you are level 50).

 

You're forgetting that concealment also gets a shorter cooldown on vanish, which is our main escape/defensive ability. They can also heal after vanishing, unlike lethality. Lethality has to get in close to do any sort of real damage and at that point, you might as well be concealment. Concealment can still do nearly as much ranged damage as lethality, they just miss out on corrosive grenade, which, to be honest, is terrible.

 

My powertech incendiary missile crits for anywhere between 900-1.2k depending on the target. Lower health targets take more damage, just like lethality. Combustible crits pretty hard too, in the 700 range.

[Sogar]

You're forgetting that concealment also gets a shorter cooldown on vanish, which is our main escape/defensive ability. They can also heal after vanishing, unlike lethality. Lethality has to get in close to do any sort of real damage and at that point, you might as well be concealment. Concealment can still do nearly as much ranged damage as lethality, they just miss out on corrosive grenade, which, to be honest, is terrible.

 

My powertech incendiary missile crits for anywhere between 900-1.2k depending on the target. Lower health targets take more damage, just like lethality. Combustible crits pretty hard too, in the 700 range.

 

True about vanish. It give them better quality of life to be able to heal but is far from essential (just like the CD).

Lethality does not play like a concealment. Going in close for more damage or staying back for healing and getting TA stacks are both viable depending on the situation and that's something only a lethality can do.

Concealment has no range damage (just overload shot at 10m range and vital+rifle at 30m).

 

And as of vital shot ... I've seen some BM lethality spec pull of crit ticks of 1k so more than half of your missiles

 

Personaly, I'm not a huge fan of full lethality for PvP (PvE is obviously another story) since devouring microbes is worthless and hemoraging blast very situational, you get a ton more utility putting those points in medicine. That's the reason why I don't mind having numbers that aren't on top. There is much more I can do that just chasing a guy for a shiv and I don't think that playstyle would work as well on concealment (whereas for a hybrid with mainly healing concealment seems to work better).

Edited February 13, 2012 by Sogar

[AnimalPotential]

lol.

 

This just goes to show the idiots playing lolconcealment.

 

I outdamage you, I have higher burst then you (but I cant OPEN with that high a burst, but I definately burst more).

 

Learn to use lethality, and youll see what I mean.

[Hoff]

lol.

 

This just goes to show the idiots playing lolconcealment.

 

I outdamage you, I have higher burst then you (but I cant OPEN with that high a burst, but I definately burst more).

 

Learn to use lethality, and youll see what I mean.

 

Sithwarrior.com has crunched the numbers to back up the fact that concealment does higher burst and higher sustain than lolethality, but hey, this is the internet, facts don't matter. Therefore, LOLOLUMAD USO BAD LETH SUX CONC PWNZ J00 NUB.

[bigwiz]

Sithwarrior.com has crunched the numbers to back up the fact that concealment does higher burst and higher sustain than lolethality, but hey, this is the internet, facts don't matter. Therefore, LOLOLUMAD USO BAD LETH SUX CONC PWNZ J00 NUB.

 

I agree that even with the nerf, concealment does higher burst, you just have to know how to play it right... just like anything. I'm sure in the right hands lethality is nasty too... not mine though! If its what u dig, keep on diggin

[Drakovicz]

Sithwarrior.com has crunched the numbers to back up the fact that concealment does higher burst and higher sustain than lolethality, but hey, this is the internet, facts don't matter. Therefore, LOLOLUMAD USO BAD LETH SUX CONC PWNZ J00 NUB.

 

You mean that spreadsheet in IA class forums that

 

a) uses numbers from before Concealment nerf

b) says that while Concealment has a higher burst, and sustain, its higher only by about 100-150 damage

c) and focuses only on PvE ?

 

Because I couldn't find any other number-crunching related to Lethality vs. Concealment on that side. If I missed something I would greatly appreciate if you could link it, as stuff like that is relevant to my interests.

[Hoff]

You mean that spreadsheet in IA class forums that

 

a) uses numbers from before Concealment nerf

b) says that while Concealment has a higher burst, and sustain, its higher only by about 100-150 damage

c) and focuses only on PvE ?

 

Because I couldn't find any other number-crunching related to Lethality vs. Concealment on that side. If I missed something I would greatly appreciate if you could link it, as stuff like that is relevant to my interests.

 

It's most definitely post-nerf and of course it focuses on PvE. If you want to talk PvP rotations, concealment has a much much easier time getting off the optimal rotation than lethality does due to the wonkiness of lethality. Lethality also has issues with energy while concealment does not.

 

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AulRmPGbKRUjdHlDVUVnc2dtZ3V6c2FNeG9kRXVMM2c&hl=en_US#gid=0

[Sookster]

I was mostly healer from 10-30ish then from 30ish to 45ish I was lethality and then hybrid med/leth and then concealment 45 on up. Lethality takes more work to get damage in and can shred enemies once the dots are ticking, but has great survivability tools (run speed on debilitate to stun & escape), shorter escape and evasion (for breaking snares) cooldowns, countermeasures allow you to break snares when escape and evasion are down, stim boost is up every 20 seconds, etc.

 

My prefered setup is med/leth hybrid (22/6/13), get those heals in and toss a corrosive grenade on focused targets from range and combat stims is IMO a must have for a medicine operative.

Edited February 14, 2012 by Sookster

[Vegastei]

I have a lethality sniper. I enjoy the game play a lot but want to do the stealth route. LEthality does not have to just pad numbers to make big gains in a wz. A good lethality will know when to snipe, leg shot, or do what ever we have to in order to win the WZ.

 

 

The lethality tree does not make a lot of sense to me with 10m ranges for operatives. I have never played an operative but want to try it out.

 

Is lethality borked for operatives or am I missing something? I can not imaging staying at a 10 m range while waiting on dots to tick.

 

At 35m with the a lethality sniper it is not an issue you can adjust while your dots tick.

 

Looking over the operative it appears you need to burst down to survive. Lethality does not seem like it can burst down much and it puts you in the danger 10 m zone.

 

Any help or suggestion would be greatly appreciated.

 

I think your looking at the lethality operative from the wrong perspective. It is a melee class, not ranged. Sure its talented abilities have 10m range, but that just to give you little leeway when being kitted. By and large you are a melee class. You can dot some ppl up from a range, but as soon as you want to focus fire melee is where you want to be.

 

Lethality's damage, when played right, is viable in both pvp and pve. In terms of pve it is theoretically ~100dps behind concealment, although this will be mitigated by lethality's superior dps in movement phases. In terms of pvp spreading dots simply generate far more overall dmg than concealment's single target burst. While coming out of stealth you have far less burst than concealment, but burst isn"t the goal of this spec. If you manage your energy correctly you have great sustain with this spec. Your burst comes from Cull, which hits like truck (with both dots up). You can cast two cull in a row, and shiv into a third when you really need the burst. Your dots may seem weak, but with weakening blast on the target the begin to hurt. Overall the damage style of this spec is designed to build up over time and benefit from sustained combat. (not running in and out like concealment)

 

The biggest challenge most people will encounter with this spec is staying alive to put out your sustained damage. The truth is, that were not as squishy as we think we are. We wear medium armor, which is the same as marauders. True they have better damage mitigation cooldowns, but we have our own tricks too. Lethality cuts 15 sec off both shield probe and evasion, as well as 30 sec off your cc break. You MUST effectively manage these defensive cooldowns to stay alive and put out decent damage. Concealment likes to rely on cloaking screen as its primary cd, but that's not true for lethality. You need constantly use your cds when your under fire and los constantly. Use your stuns defensively when necessary as well. Finally, its ok to day more while leathlity because your dots keep ticking while your dead, which is really powerful in alderan and voidstar.

 

So overall Lethality is viable, if you know how to use it. It has an entirely different play style from concealment, and will not be effective if you attempt to play it from the wrong mindset. Its not underpowered, the raw power of dots is pvp is very strong now. Saying lethality is broken shows how much you don't understand it.

[sMooMs]

concealment is better , period end of sentence.

[Vegastei]

concealment is better , period end of sentence.

 

Do you have any data to support this? They both have strengths and weaknesses. Its illogical to try to say one is better all together. You could say one is more viable, but in this case that's not mathematically true.

Edited February 14, 2012 by Vegastei

[Hoff]

Do you have any data to support this? They both have strengths and weaknesses. Its illogical to try to say one is better all together. You could say one is more viable, but in this case that's not mathematically true.

 

Seems that everyone is ignoring my post with the data that proves concealment does more burst and more sustain. Concealment obviously has more survivability as well.

[AnimalPotential]

I know I will hate myself for this post if I see alot of lethality OPs from now on, but here goes:

 

 

Lethality:

Corrosive Dart - Minimum damage, long dot.

Corrosive Grenade - Min dmg, long dot.

 

So far, no damage.

Cull Base damage: 780-912. (Vs Lacerate 843 base damage).

Adds another 259 pr dot effect on the target thats yours.

 

If Corrosive Dart that means: 1171.

If corrosive dart AND grenade: 1430.

 

Now, we done yet? no sir.

Cut down adds another 6% to that base damage, that means:

1515,8

 

We done? no.

 

Weakening blast adds another 30% effect on it, as cull counts as a poison effect:

1970.

 

So, before ANY pvp armor, before your stat increases you are looking at a 1970 shot, before you crit.

A spammable, 10 meter range shot, that because it counts as a poison attack bypasses ALL SHIELDS and guards...

 

Tell me how thats not burst?

The highest ive critted is 8k with it... and im not full BM gear.

 

Just saying.

[Hoff]

I know I will hate myself for this post if I see alot of lethality OPs from now on, but here goes:

 

 

Lethality:

Corrosive Dart - Minimum damage, long dot.

Corrosive Grenade - Min dmg, long dot.

 

So far, no damage.

Cull Base damage: 780-912. (Vs Lacerate 843 base damage).

Adds another 259 pr dot effect on the target thats yours.

 

If Corrosive Dart that means: 1171.

If corrosive dart AND grenade: 1430.

 

Now, we done yet? no sir.

Cut down adds another 6% to that base damage, that means:

1515,8

 

We done? no.

 

Weakening blast adds another 30% effect on it, as cull counts as a poison effect:

1970.

 

So, before ANY pvp armor, before your stat increases you are looking at a 1970 shot, before you crit.

A spammable, 10 meter range shot, that because it counts as a poison attack bypasses ALL SHIELDS and guards...

 

Tell me how thats not burst?

The highest ive critted is 8k with it... and im not full BM gear.

 

Just saying.

 

LOLOLOL, trust me. You have nothing to worry about. The intelligent and skilled operatives will stay concealment.

 

Lacerate = 1650 damage with good gear, collateral strike for 430 = 2080 total, round up to 2100.

 

Acid Blade = 1700 damage over 6 seconds with good gear.

 

Hidden strike = 2100 damage with good gear.

 

Backstab = 1700 damage with good gear.

 

vs.

 

Corrosive Grenade = 2000 over 21 seconds, can be AoE

 

Cull = 1200 base + 550 per DoT with good gear.

 

Weakning Blast = 750 + 10x 30% bonus to DoTs .

 

 

 

Acid blade poops all over weakning blast and corrosive grenade alone. Only the +550 part of Cull gets +30% from weakening blast. Plus you have to have accuracy on your gear to use Cull reliably because it is based off of ranged accuracy instead of tech. It also can be avoided via evasion and saber ward for the same reason.

 

Assuming best case scenario where you have 2 DoTs, they are under 30% hp, and weakening blast on the target. Your Cull is still only going to hit for 1200+(1100*1.45)= 2800. Sorry but even with 100% surge, you're not going to hit anywhere near 8k. Most targets will be above 30%, most targets will cleanse your DoTs, most targets will poop all over you while you spend 10-15 seconds setting up your "burst."

 

1.5s = Dart

3s = Grenade

4.5s = Weakening Blast

6s = Shiv

7.5s = Cull

 

That's assuming no lag in between and that you don't get stunned, nor do they cleanse your DoTs.

 

 

Again, check the spreadsheet I linked. At NO point during a 300 second fight does lethality surpass concealment DPS, nor does it come close to the same burst.

[Vegastei]

LOLOLOL, trust me. You have nothing to worry about. The intelligent and skilled operatives will stay concealment.

 

Lacerate = 1650 damage with good gear, collateral strike for 430 = 2080 total, round up to 2100.

 

Acid Blade = 1700 damage over 6 seconds with good gear.

 

Hidden strike = 2100 damage with good gear.

 

Backstab = 1700 damage with good gear.

 

vs.

 

Corrosive Grenade = 2000 over 21 seconds, can be AoE

 

Cull = 1200 base + 550 per DoT with good gear.

 

Weakning Blast = 750 + 10x 30% bonus to DoTs .

 

 

 

Acid blade poops all over weakning blast and corrosive grenade alone. Only the +550 part of Cull gets +30% from weakening blast. Plus you have to have accuracy on your gear to use Cull reliably because it is based off of ranged accuracy instead of tech. It also can be avoided via evasion and saber ward for the same reason.

 

Assuming best case scenario where you have 2 DoTs, they are under 30% hp, and weakening blast on the target. Your Cull is still only going to hit for 1200+(1100*1.45)= 2800. Sorry but even with 100% surge, you're not going to hit anywhere near 8k. Most targets will be above 30%, most targets will cleanse your DoTs, most targets will poop all over you while you spend 10-15 seconds setting up your "burst."

 

1.5s = Dart

3s = Grenade

4.5s = Weakening Blast

6s = Shiv

7.5s = Cull

 

That's assuming no lag in between and that you don't get stunned, nor do they cleanse your DoTs.

 

 

Again, check the spreadsheet I linked. At NO point during a 300 second fight does lethality surpass concealment DPS, nor does it come close to the same burst.

 

All of your numbers are based off good gear. His numbers are based off base damage. (no gear)

 

In response to your other post. I'll give you concealment has better burst. As I stated before its sustain is only superior by ~100dps witch is easily negated by kitting.

 

The big thing your ignoring is MULTI-TARGET DAMAGE. Lethality can easily dot 3 ppl then focus fire someone. Concealment can only dps one person at a time, and is very stealth dependent. Sure concealment has better burst, but lethality has near equal sustain and FAR better aoe. Bottomline is that Warzones are not 1v1, and lethality is capable of higher overall dps with more targets involved.

Edited February 14, 2012 by Vegastei

[Hoff]

All of your numbers are based off good gear. His numbers are based off base damage. (no gear)

 

In response to your other post. I'll give you concealment has better burst. As I stated before its sustain is only superior by ~100dps witch is easily negated by kitting.

 

The big thing your ignoring is MULTI-TARGET DAMAGE. Lethality can easily dot 3 ppl then focus fire someone. Concealment can only dps one person at a time, and is very stealth dependent. Sure concealment has better burst, but lethality has near equal sustain and FAR better aoe. Bottomline is that Warzones are not 1v1, and lethality is capable of higher overall dps with more targets involved.

 

Uh, the only thing that lethality gets over concealment in terms of "multi target dotting" is corrosive grenade, which frankly, blows ***. A concealment operative has pretty much the same corrosive dart damage, much better energy management, and no, they don't require stealth. Acid blade + backstab = lots of damage.

 

Concealment can easily DoT 3 people and then focus fire someone and is not super stealht dependent.

 

I don't see how lethality has FAR better AoE when they only get corrosive grenade over a concealment operative. 2k damage over 21 seconds if it doesn't get cleansed times the number of people it hits (usually 1-3 at most because you are trying to keep DoTs on your focus cull target).