MMO Vets, What do you think?

[Hillfort]

Why? What makes "casual" gameplay so exclusive that it blocks out the possibility of other forms?

 

I believe and i think wow proves thins that "casuals" will not pay and continue to pay subs where they are excluded from gear and content. If you like a game you want the feeling that you are good at it having shinny things you can't get deos not make you feal like that. The other side to that is that skilled players or ones willing to put a lot of work into the game need to be rewarded and feel they need to have a badge to prove they are better than others.

 

I think wow has tried to appeal to both sets and done quite well at it.

Edited February 13, 2012 by Hillfort

[Cerion]

I find your question interesting, because I never implied that there are features that apply to hardcore players and don't impact casual players.

 

You wouldn't be putting words into peoples mouths now would you?

 

Nevertheless, there ARE features in other MMOs which could be argued do indeed apply MORE (not necessarily only) to what could be classified as a "mid to hardcore" player. For instance, there could be systems in place which require more than just a glorified vending machine (i.e. the crafting and missions system).

 

My point is that there should be features and facets that players can actually "sink their teeth into" and have something long term to work towards. And let's face facts, there is really very little of that in the game right now.

 

You didn't have to imply anything because hardcore features speak for themselves. And by your own admission, such features impact casual play. So I wasn't so much as 'putting words into your mouth' as much as predicting exactly what you'd say.

 

Crafting mods for my gear and all of my companions is a fairly intensive endeavor. And a very long term objective -- for a casual player. Of course a hardcore player doesn't find this very long term...but then again, very little is long term for the hardcore player.

 

Again, perhaps you can enlighten us with a 'rich' feature that doesn't cheese off the cash cow that is casual players? Because if they go, so goes your game.

[Tarka]

What the problem I see in today's MMO's is they try to copy WoW's quests and streamline leveling while forgetting the whole "world" part that WoW actually had down pat.

 

Whilst I agree with other parts of your post, I especially agree with the above.

 

Funnily enough, Damion Schubert of Bioware wrote a blog about finding the middle ground between "worlds" and "games".

 

http://www.swtor.com/news/blog/20100402_001

 

But right now, I don't think Bioware has actually accomplished that.

Will they ultimately accomplish it? We don't know for sure.

And if Bioware don't give us a sign that they ARE even attempting to, I'm not sure they ever will.

 

Both games had hooks. Open worlds that let you travel and see if the other side was better. SWTOR has NONE of that. It has all the modern features. It just forgot the world to put them in.

 

Agreed.

Edited February 13, 2012 by Tarka

[Tarka]

You didn't have to imply anything because hardcore features speak for themselves. And by your own admission, such features impact casual play. So I wasn't so much as 'putting words into your mouth' as much as predicting exactly what you'd say.

 

Where did I state that hardcore features always impact casual play? I never said that.

You appear to be misinterpretting what I said, I suggest you read it again.

 

What was it you was saying about putting words in peoples mouths?

 

Crafting mods for my gear and all of my companions is a fairly intensive endeavor. And a very long term objective -- for a casual player. Of course a hardcore player doesn't find this very long term...but then again, very little is long term for the hardcore player.

 

Again, perhaps you can enlighten us with a 'rich' feature that doesn't cheese off the cash cow that is casual players? Because if they go, so goes your game.

 

Actually the mods aren't that intensive at all once you know the system. And it is FAR from being a long term objective considering how quickly you can roll out those blue modifications (trust me, i know).

 

But you DO touch on one area that, whilst it has helped in certain areas, it has also actually hindered creating a decent economy: customisable gear. Now, by your own admission you can craft mods, which suggests you chose either Artificing or Cybertech. Try synthweaving and see just how viable that profession currently is at end game

 

As for your final question, I mentioned in my previous post how you were jumping to conclusions and putting words in peoples mouths. Which is precisely what you accused me of. As such, your question is irrelevant because it does not apply to the discussion.

Edited February 13, 2012 by Tarka

[lrage]

Whilst I agree with other parts of your post, I especially agree with the above.

 

Funnily enough, Damion Schubert of Bioware wrote a blog about finding the middle ground between "worlds" and "games".

 

http://www.swtor.com/news/blog/20100402_001

 

But right now, I don't think Bioware has actually accomplished that.

Will they ultimately accomplish it? We don't know for sure.

And if Bioware don't give us a sign that they ARE even attempting to, I'm not sure they ever will.

 

 

 

Agreed.

 

It's like today's games think WoW's popular because of it's massive endgame. They totally forget it took over a year to get there (not to level to 60, for the end game to start maturing past Ony) and that evolved in time. In WoW the journey had HUGE moments of accomplishments. I was way ahead of the curve, something like the 12th level 60 on the original server I played on, and we basically all merged into the top raiding guild on that server and it lasted a few years. And even people like me had MAJOR moments of "awesome" on the way to 60. Huge moments where we killed a boss or I got a piece of loot or whatever. And EQ certainly had that.

 

SWTOR and everything else it seems just puts crap for meaning on the way to level cap, poor end game raiding, and spend all this time trying to give me quests I don't even care to read half the time and content I fly through.

 

And because the journey to 50 (aka the world) is so crap, everyone leaves before it matters.

 

Give me a good world, some endgame dungeons and Vox/Onyxia style bosses that people will break themselves over and over before they beat. And in "that" time then add the content. Games should release with enough content for 90% of the people for at least 4-5 months. And they just don't anymore because they spend so much design time holding our hands for leveling despite the fact we fly through the content.

Edited February 13, 2012 by lrage

[Azzras]

I'd also like to ask what other MMO out there has listened to the fans like BW has?

 

Player: UI sux

BW: We're going to add a UI that you can pick you CDs and scale...but later we will allow for mods (some ppl don't like mods so we still have to have a UI most ppl like)

 

Player: There's a BUG!

BW: Thanks for reporting, we're working on a fix.

 

Player: MORE CONTENT

BW: We're adding more warzones, flashpoints, and operations along with new quests.

 

I could go on, but you get the idea.

 

So again, what other MMO company has ever listened to the community like this before?

[Tarka]

It's like today's games think WoW's popular because of it's massive endgame. They totally forget it took over a year to get there (not to level to 60, for the end game to start maturing past Ony) and that evolved in time. In WoW the journey had HUGE moments of accomplishments. I was way ahead of the curve, something like the 12th level 60 on the original server I played on, and we basically all merged into the top raiding guild on that server and it lasted a few years. And even people like me had MAJOR moments of "awesome" on the way to 60. Huge moments where we killed a boss or I got a piece of loot or whatever. And EQ certainly had that.

 

SWTOR and everything else it seems just puts crap for meaning on the way to level cap, poor end game raiding, and spend all this time trying to give me quests I don't even care to read half the time and content I fly through.

 

And because the journey to 50 (aka the world) is so crap, everyone leaves before it matters.

 

Give me a good world, some endgame dungeons and Vox/Onyxia style bosses that people will break themselves over and over before they beat. And in "that" time then add the content. Games should release with enough content for 90% of the people for at least 4-5 months. And they just don't anymore because they spend so much design time holding our hands for leveling despite the fact we fly through the content.

 

if you basically mean that this product needs to have more "meat" to it and be fleshed out more to give a variety of options for people to have short, medium AND long term goals. I agree

[Arianova]

Veteran gamer / MMO vet here, been gaming since 1986. First game was Kingdom of Kroz, anyone remember that classic ?

 

 

Kingdom of Kroz!.. 2d Wolfenstein with ansi characters. Awsome game! Didn't think anyone remembered that one.

[Cerion]

what is this "improved performance and gameplay" ????

 

Presumably you're on this thread because you're a MMO Vet, right? Perhaps a little reflection on the history of MMOs will enlighten you? Or perhaps not. Then I will indulge you:

 

1. Loading screens pre-ceed some detailed, complex instances that wouldn't be possible otherwise.
   
2. Loading screens pre-ceed, well, loading of zones. If we had no zones, the game, in it's entirety, would need to be loaded, and this impacts performance. I suppose we could go back to EQ were the screen just froze as the next zone loaded in order to get rid of the Loading Screen. Would that solve your problem? No. I thought not.
   
3. I also suspect, though admittedly can't prove, that loading screens also allow for the pre-load of cinematics that might occur for your character.
    
   

 

I could go on. The fact is, almost any major MMO, and for that matter SPRGS, have loading screens. Now ask yourself why that is?

[Azzras]

Give me a good world, some endgame dungeons and Vox/Onyxia style bosses that people will break themselves over and over before they beat. And in "that" time then add the content. Games should release with enough content for 90% of the people for at least 4-5 months. And they just don't anymore because they spend so much design time holding our hands for leveling despite the fact we fly through the content.

 

So what you're saying is all they had to do was put out an unbeatable/barely beatable boss?

That's an easy fix, then.

Increase max health and dmg of all bosses by 45%.

 

/fixed

[Cerion]

Try doing dailies and running from fleet->ship->airlock->orbital station->planet and back again a few times.

 

I'm level 44. By the time I reach 50, we'll see what transpires. Right now, I don't see myself doing dailies.

[Tarka]

I'd also like to ask what other MMO out there has listened to the fans like BW has?

 

Player: UI sux

BW: We're going to add a UI that you can pick you CDs and scale...but later we will allow for mods (some ppl don't like mods so we still have to have a UI most ppl like)

 

Player: There's a BUG!

BW: Thanks for reporting, we're working on a fix.

 

Player: MORE CONTENT

BW: We're adding more warzones, flashpoints, and operations along with new quests.

 

I could go on, but you get the idea.

 

So again, what other MMO company has ever listened to the community like this before?

 

Bioware are no different to other companies who claim that they are listening, but in reality they often just follow their own particular direction of development. And if that path of development just happens to coincide with a few things that players want, then THAT is when you see things being implemented.

 

For instance, a trained monkey could tell you that the UI sucks. It doesn't need a community to point it out.

 

Time is of the essence, and that's what is getting people concerned. Just throwing more flashpoints / warzones / operations at it won't necessary be the solution. THAT is what Bioware need to listen to.

[Tarka]

I'm level 44. By the time I reach 50, we'll see what transpires. Right now, I don't see myself doing dailies.

 

That wouldn't surprise me in the least.

 

And funnily enough, you have just answered your own question as to what differences may exist between the needs of a truely "casual" player, compared to the needs of a player who might be more "mid to hardcore".

 

A casual may want to become more "mid" or "hardcore" and vice versa. Hence why the two aren't mutually exclusive in all cases. But nevertheless, THAT is why MMO's in todays market need to cater for as many types of player as possible. Because they ALL help to make an MMO successful.

 

Tick, tock, tick, tock.

Edited February 13, 2012 by Tarka

[Azzras]

Bioware are no different to other companies who claim that they are listening, but in reality they often just follow their own particular direction of development. And if that path of development just happens to coincide with a few things that players want, then THAT is when you see things being implemented.

 

For instance, a trained monkey could tell you that the UI sucks. It doesn't need a community to point it out.

 

Time is of the essence, and that's what is getting people concerned. Just throwing more flashpoints / warzones / operations at it won't necessary be the solution. THAT is what Bioware need to listen to.

 

I sense much anger in you.

 

I actually like the UI. It's functional.

Also, they have taken polls out on some features to determine what the 1% forum goers want.

And very shortly after released a vid showing what they came up with in response.

 

Let the rage go, my friend.

[lrage]

So what you're saying is all they had to do was put out an unbeatable/barely beatable boss?

That's an easy fix, then.

Increase max health and dmg of all bosses by 45%.

 

/fixed

 

No, what' I'm saying is that they should have you enjoy the journey through rewards. In fact, if you're getting regularly rewarded they can actually slow down the journey. That's not blasphemy. The end-game should evolve. Not become a WoW-clone end-game that everyone hits within a few weeks of release in basically every game these days.

 

To use WoW an example BFD, SM, Uld, Scholo, BRD, BRS, ST, etc... All had major hooks for people. It wasn't just crap autogenerated loot. It was hand designed loot of "woah, this kicks butt" for the level you could get it. If you choose to skip it you missed out.

 

EQ had amazing loot (harder to get without instances and some of the risk/reward wasn't great) and many "rares" with amazing drops people hunted like crazy.

 

Both games gave you major accomplishments along the way. And both games had, at release, true raid level bosses that were harder then most games start with today.

 

But it's wasn't horrid, because there was a lot of stuff you could "group" for and "dungeon crawl" for besides those end bosses.

 

And both games the end-games evolved over a long period of time.

 

Today's games just copy WoW end-game and get the players there (to the end-game) right away, and the players don't give a crap about the world because the world itself sucks and gave them nothing memorable on the way to the end-game.

[Tarka]

I sense much anger in you.

 

I actually like the UI. It's functional.

Also, they have taken polls out on some features to determine what the 1% forum goers want.

And very shortly after released a vid showing what they came up with in response.

 

Let the rage go, my friend.

 

You are mistaking what I said for anger. Nope. I'm not angry.

Just experienced to know that all may not transpire as one might want.

 

Just taking a poll or two is only part of the equation.

 

Perception is everything in this industry.

Edited February 13, 2012 by Tarka

[Bazouk]

I sense much anger in you.

 

I actually like the UI. It's functional.

Also, they have taken polls out on some features to determine what the 1% forum goers want.

And very shortly after released a vid showing what they came up with in response.

 

Let the rage go, my friend.

 

 

where would this game be without forum rage?

 

right where it was at launch.

 

who did they poll about how bad the gcd effect is right now? forum goers.

 

what is the result? they're changing it.

 

you may not always get what you want, but if you don't come onto this forum and scream about it, you sure as hell won't.

[Tarka]

where would this game be without forum rage?

 

right where it was at launch.

 

who did they poll about how bad the gcd effect is right now? forum goers.

 

what is the result? they're changing it.

 

you may not always get what you want, but if you don't come onto this forum and scream about it, you sure as hell won't.

 

Another case in point: Jedi Wizard

 

But even so, those instances are hardly good justification for proving that Bioware are always good listeners who actually action in accordance with players needs.

Edited February 13, 2012 by Tarka

[Bazouk]

Another case in point: Jedi Wizard

 

But even so, those instances are hardly good justification for proving that Bioware are always good listeners who actually action in accordance with players needs.

 

you are not wrong, but what else are we to do?

 

i suppose we could just stop giving them money. but that doesn't tell them what it is i want fixed.

[Kalfear]

I'd also like to ask what other MMO out there has listened to the fans like BW has?

 

 

Yeah, if you were around in beta you know whats being announced now was mostly announces as in the works in beta

 

I think you grossly over estimate Bioware listening to anyone!

 

Again I point to lack of DAoC RVR system (which was request in numbers by the fanbase in 2008).

 

No Paazaak/Swoop bike racing (again hugely popular feature in KotOR game, requested almost immediately by numbers in 08, still not in game)

 

Bioware doesnt listen, they just announce "we doing that" when their in house list matchs up with a community demand/request.

 

When I see a number of things requested long before UI stuff and content updates (seriously, you think the update was in reply to the boards? I guarentee you that content update was in the planning long before retail even hit).

 

Sorry but I think you want to beleive Bioware listening to you and yours so you finding example to try and make it a realistic claim.

 

LOTS of stuff was requested BY NUMBERS long before the items you list and we dont have it because it wasnt in Bioware previously set time frame to do it.

 

Im sure you will disagree because sounds like your desperate to beleive your claim. Hope it works out.

 

As for companies listening

 

SWG basically killed their remaining poplulation listening to fan

Mythic did destroy their RVR listening to Hard Core PVP feedback

ect ect ect

 

Not going to list them all, there has been numberous developers that listened to fanbases to disasterous results.

And there been developers that didnt listen to fan base to disaterous results!

 

Developers need to let their egos go and stop listening to the yes men fanbois that stroke their egos first off

 

Then they need to realize that there is experienced fan with no personal agenda that do bring LOTS to the table because of their experience. Those the players developers need to find out and utilize for progression ideas and concepts.

[Tarka]

you are not wrong, but what else are we to do?

 

i suppose we could just stop giving them money. but that doesn't tell them what it is i want fixed.

 

Agreed. All that tells them is that the product wasn't right for the player. But the moment a player cancels their sub, it's too late to do anything about it.

 

As the old saying goes: Its easier and cheaper to keep an existing customer, than try to entice one back.

 

Bioware need to realise that just throwing more flashpoints into the game won't solve a lot of the problems.

Edited February 13, 2012 by Tarka

[Cerion]

Where did I state that hardcore features always impact casual play? I never said that.

You appear to be misinterpretting what I said, I suggest you read it again.

 

What was it you was saying about putting words in peoples mouths?

 

Again, I'm just re-quoting what you've said. If putting your own words BACK into your mouth is somehow 'putting words into mouths', then you've got a bit of learning to do:

 

 

I never implied that there are features that apply to hardcore players and don't impact casual players.

 

.

 

Your poor double-negative grammar aside, it is clear what you mean here. But if it is not, then here's your chance to state clearly and for the record (though I suspect you'll obfuscate and avoid it) what you mean. Do Hardcore features impact casual play? If not, name me one 'rich' hardcore feature that will not impact casual play.

Edited February 13, 2012 by Cerion

[Plexas]

as a pvp player this game offers me pretty much nothing unfortunately. the trip to 50 was good, in fact, it was better than any other mmo i ever played.

 

the ops are decent, the flashpoints are decent and in my opinion better than ops in terms of content, but the pvp side of things is clearly tacked on as an afterthought.

 

"all" (not that simple really) that needs to be added is some meaningfull war zone, kinda like warhammer had, with actual progression towards a goal. right now the only reason to head off to ilum and push back and forth for hours is to get to valor rank 60.

 

i still wonder what were they thinking when they created an mmo based around star wars but thought pvp wouldnt be popular. it makes absolutely no sense to me.

[grueber]

you are not wrong, but what else are we to do?

 

i suppose we could just stop giving them money. but that doesn't tell them what it is i want fixed.

 

Sure it does. Bioware sends you an email with a link that reads:

 

 

We value you as a customer and we're sorry to see you go. Your opinion is very important to us, as we are committed to continually improving the game and addressing your concerns. We'd appreciate it if you would take a short survey and tell us about your experience and let us know what we can do to bring you back into the game.

 

Remember, your account and any characters you have created will not be deleted. We hope to see you back in the game soon.

 

Sincerely,

The Star Wars™: The Old Republic™ Community Team

 

 

So I told them I wanted a LFD tool. I'm just not going to subsidize them while they work on it.

[Tarka]

Again, I'm just re-quoting what you've said. If putting your own words BACK into your mouth is somehow 'putting words into mouths', then you've got a bit of learning to do:

 

Your poor double-negative grammar aside, it is clear what you mean here. But if it is not, then here's your chance to state clearly and for the record (though I suspect you'll obfuscate and avoid it) what you mean. Do Hardcore features impact casual play? If not, name me one 'rich' feature that will not impact casual play.

 

Lol. Did you actually read my posts? Or are you just going to continuously ask the same question, even though it's already been answered?

 

If you cannot understand what is being said, then who has got "a bit of learning to do"? Hmm?

 

 

 

Finally, as what people (no matter where on the casual / hardcore scale they are) feel is needed, I would suggest you focus less on arguing with people and focus more on opening your eyes to what's in front of you.

 

As an example: read your comment about "dailies", why they are in the game, and why others might feel the need to do them EVEN THOUGH you probably won't be doing them. Then think how loading screens play a part in that scenario.

Edited February 13, 2012 by Tarka