Request to Change Project and Throw, with suggestions and examples…

[Ohoni]

What is more powerful, a .40 cal bullet or a .223? One is almost twice the diameter and much heavier than the other, yet it all comes down to the FORCE behind them.

 

A bigger bullet traveling at the same speed does more damage. This is why TK Throw does more damage than Project, even though it uses smaller projectiles. Either bullet would do more damage than no bullet at all. How many guns use no projectiles?

 

In the project animation, IT OBVIOUSLY isnt moving that fast.

 

It moves about as fast as Disturbance does.

 

No physical projectile IS EVER going to look as cool as a force energy animation done right, and IT WILL NEVER, EVER have the kind of damage potential

 

You know, Ultimate Marvel vs. Capcom 3 is still on the shelves if you want hadoukens.

 

picking up a rock and throwing it is childs play compared to controlling energy and molecules and propelling them at the kind of velocities that jedi are capable of through the force.

 

Yes, which is why the dilettantes, the Shadows, are only capable of the rock thing, while the true experts, the Sages, and most specifically the TK-specced Sages, have access to at least a few "pure Force" attacks.

 

3) The animations are horribly flawed in concept. This has been stated a million times. They are ignorant of the environment and expect you to believe there are endless supplies of junk buried at your feet, everywhere. Its beyond stupid. They demand you buy into something that is so obviously impossible its just ludicrous.

 

The only change I'd like to see is a change to the random projectile tables based on the textures under your feet. Champions Online does this with their "Earth Flight" power, which pulls a boulder out of the ground and lets you fly on it. The composition of this boulder is based on the textures under your feet when you use it, so snowy ground produces an icy rock, desert terrain produces a brown boulder, city streets produce a block of pavement, and if you're falling through the air it even produces a thundercloud instead! This is how Project should work, ideally, in that if you're on a man-made surface, it limits the options to techy bits like droid parts and crates and stuff, while if you're on "natural" terrain it pulls out rocks and pottery and stuff.

 

5) There are FAR better options available, some of which are in this thread. Options with more WOW factor and more JEDI appeal.

 

How many that don't involve hadouken?

 

6) The project animation is clearly not suited to be instant...it takes TIME to pull up junk and TIME to spin it in the air, and TIME to hurl it. It needs an activation timer, EVEN if you like throwing junk. This REALLY is not debatable, if you want to be honest. The delay it introduces is unacceptable and is likely being addressed by BW as we post about it.

 

It is an instant cast, as the damage is applied before the projectile reaches the target, and the character is free to move and use other attacks immediately after activating this one. The animation appears delayed, but the move itself is not. I actually like the effect of having the projectiles flying at the target as I'm running in, or as I'm starting up TK Throw, rather than having to sit through the entire build-up, locked in place like with Disturbance or TK Throw. It feels like my character is multi-tasking, like it's just a casual thing for him because he's so boss.

 

Also, Neox is right, the Consular is definitely aimed at a more mature audience, they have a very passive, cerebral storyline than most classes. While other classes are engaged in a great intergalactic hunt and mission of revenge, or hunting down weapons of mass destruction, the Consular is doing medical research. I'm not saying that makes players who enjoy the Consular any better than those that don't, I'm just pointing out that they are not intended to be an instant-gratification "omg wow!" class.

[Dyvim]

A bigger bullet traveling at the same speed does more damage. This is why TK Throw does more damage than Project, even though it uses smaller projectiles. Either bullet would do more damage than no bullet at all. How many guns use no projectiles?

 

 

 

It moves about as fast as Disturbance does.

 

 

 

You know, Ultimate Marvel vs. Capcom 3 is still on the shelves if you want hadoukens.

 

 

 

Yes, which is why the dilettantes, the Shadows, are only capable of the rock thing, while the true experts, the Sages, and most specifically the TK-specced Sages, have access to at least a few "pure Force" attacks.

 

 

 

The only change I'd like to see is a change to the random projectile tables based on the textures under your feet. Champions Online does this with their "Earth Flight" power, which pulls a boulder out of the ground and lets you fly on it. The composition of this boulder is based on the textures under your feet when you use it, so snowy ground produces an icy rock, desert terrain produces a brown boulder, city streets produce a block of pavement, and if you're falling through the air it even produces a thundercloud instead! This is how Project should work, ideally, in that if you're on a man-made surface, it limits the options to techy bits like droid parts and crates and stuff, while if you're on "natural" terrain it pulls out rocks and pottery and stuff.

 

 

 

How many that don't involve hadouken?

 

 

 

It is an instant cast, as the damage is applied before the projectile reaches the target, and the character is free to move and use other attacks immediately after activating this one. The animation appears delayed, but the move itself is not. I actually like the effect of having the projectiles flying at the target as I'm running in, or as I'm starting up TK Throw, rather than having to sit through the entire build-up, locked in place like with Disturbance or TK Throw. It feels like my character is multi-tasking, like it's just a casual thing for him because he's so boss.

 

Also, Neox is right, the Consular is definitely aimed at a more mature audience, they have a very passive, cerebral storyline than most classes. While other classes are engaged in a great intergalactic hunt and mission of revenge, or hunting down weapons of mass destruction, the Consular is doing medical research. I'm not saying that makes players who enjoy the Consular any better than those that don't, I'm just pointing out that they are not intended to be an instant-gratification "omg wow!" class.

 

Again, applying firearm discussion to the force is silly, but I see you cant cede the point. The force is either using energy projectiles or molecular projectiles. So to say there is no projectile is wrong. But who knows...its the force. It can do alot. We know what it CANT do though, and that is make things magically appear...well except for project and throw, which shatter that basic truth. And disturbance is not the same as some rock, so the relative speeds are meaningless. But one thing is for sure, a regular rock traveling at those relatively slow speeds is completely unimpressive. A smugglers shotgun is infinitely superior in concept...or just about ANY projectile weapon from any other class.

 

Yes, I understand why many projectiles traveling at faster speeds would be more damaging than one larger projectile travelling slower. I thought, you would have figured out from reading my post that my knowledge of ballistics is more than adequate for this discussion. But those pebbles are still quite visible, and not travelling anywhere near the muzzle velocity of one of our firearms, which is considerably inferior to the firearm technology in star wars....so, to recap, pebblestorm < our technology << star wars technology that every other class in the game has....

 

You know there are a bunch of games on the shelves with crappy, generic fantasy style classes that act as wizards, shamans or whatever. This game is about jedi and the force, I expect something more. Good for you that you are willing to settle for craptasms. Because thats what we have atm. And there has been post after post that indicates that the damage IS NOT instant and is delayed. Perhaps you can read this thread?

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=233575

 

Pay attention, especially to the people that throw a tantrum at the thought that it might be turned into an instant damage ability, like it should be...so much for the adults...I love the one guy who threatens to remove the calss guides he posted if the ability gets changed...there is maturity for you. Also, class story line is completely different from the skills and animations of the class...pls dont get confused and start mixing the two...

 

If they do make the animation actually environment aware, then I think more people would be ok with it animating for some ability in the TK tree, like disturbance. But when you have both project and throw focussed on junk and debris, and doing it remarkably poorly from an animation and mechanics point of view, it is unacceptable for the reasons I have mentioned. Consulars become junk tossers - it defines them.

 

Also, I never mentioned Hadouken, although I am a big Yamato fan from way back in the 70s. Streetfighter not so much. But irregardless my understanding is that the jedi and the force came from asian concepts like samurai and chi or ki. So it is appropriate in that sense to have force energy or force energy projectiles resemble some of the other "spirit" kind of attacks, but then again star wars and its ideas have been in the mass consciousness for sometime, so perhaps its a chicken and egg type situation. Whatever the case, energy attacks dont have to worry about what textures you are standing on, just like lightsaber throws don't.

Edited January 30, 2012 by Dyvim

[Ohoni]

But one thing is for sure, a regular rock traveling at those relatively slow speeds is completely unimpressive. A smugglers shotgun is infinitely superior in concept...or just about ANY projectile weapon from any other class.

 

A rock traveling at the speeds that project does would do considerable amounts of damage, that is a very heavy projectile, even if it is moving a much slower speeds than a shotgun round. It would also have a much greater effect against an armored opponent, because while it wouldn't penetrate the armor, the force would translate much better. Note how easily much smaller rocks are able to damage armored troopers in Return of the Jedi. In either case, both the rock and the shotgun round would do considerably more damage than "nothing" moving at the same speed.

 

But those pebbles are still quite visible, and not travelling anywhere near the muzzle velocity of one of our firearms, which is considerably inferior to the firearm technology in star wars....so, to recap, pebblestorm < our technology << star wars technology that every other class in the game has....

 

Actually, SW firearms seem considerably weaker than Earth firearms. I mean, their auto-cannons have a lower firing rate than an Earth minigun, their sniper rifles have an effective range of only 35m. Storm Troopers can't hit the broad side of a Sandcrawler at 35m, and even when unarmored opponents are hit with a blaster bolt, the wounds created are fairly tiny in comparison to a comparable Earth military weapon. The Star Wars universe has a lot of technology that is far superior to Earths, but that doesn't mean that they are superior in all fields.

 

If they do make the animation actually environment aware, then I think more people would be ok with it animating for some ability in the TK tree, like disturbance. But when you have both project and throw focussed on junk and debris, and doing it remarkably poorly from an animation and mechanics point of view, it is unacceptable for the reasons I have mentioned. Consulars become junk tossers - it defines them.

 

The problem with what you suggest is that both Project and TK Throw are available to Shadows, as well as to TK-specced sages. Even if one were to agree with you on the idea that a "pure force" attack could conceivably do as much damage as a rock, it would obviously need to be something that only a true expert at Force powers would be capable of in the heat of battle, not someone also focused on melee combat skills.

 

Now, if they swapped the animations so that Project had the current Distrubance animation and Distrubance had the current Project animation, they would also have to switch when you get them, so that you'd get Disturbance at level 1 and Project at level 10 as a Sage, which I don't see the point in doing.

 

Also, I never mentioned Hadouken, although I am a big Yamato fan from way back in the 70s.

 

How is the move you suggest they should give Sages not a Hadouken?

Edited January 30, 2012 by Ohoni

[MolotovaAFJ]

I agree with OP, project and throw would benefit from an animation revamp. I hate the throwing junk/pebbles part of being a sage with a passion, luckily I stick to healing in HMs/OPs and am rarely required to do dps.

 

That said the change should be purely esthetic and should be an option, so people who actually like and got used to the current one can keep them. I have not read all 30+ pages, but clearly many would not like those animations to change.

[Dyvim]

A rock traveling at the speeds that project does would do considerable amounts of damage, that is a very heavy projectile, even if it is moving a much slower speeds than a shotgun round. It would also have a much greater effect against an armored opponent, because while it wouldn't penetrate the armor, the force would translate much better. Note how easily much smaller rocks are able to damage armored troopers in Return of the Jedi. In either case, both the rock and the shotgun round would do considerably more damage than "nothing" moving at the same speed.

 

 

 

Actually, SW firearms seem considerably weaker than Earth firearms. I mean, their auto-cannons have a lower firing rate than an Earth minigun, their sniper rifles have an effective range of only 35m. Storm Troopers can't hit the broad side of a Sandcrawler at 35m, and even when unarmored opponents are hit with a blaster bolt, the wounds created are fairly tiny in comparison to a comparable Earth military weapon. The Star Wars universe has a lot of technology that is far superior to Earths, but that doesn't mean that they are superior in all fields.

 

 

 

The problem with what you suggest is that both Project and TK Throw are available to Shadows, as well as to TK-specced sages. Even if one were to agree with you on the idea that a "pure force" attack could conceivably do as much damage as a rock, it would obviously need to be something that only a true expert at Force powers would be capable of in the heat of battle, not someone also focused on melee combat skills.

 

Now, if they swapped the animations so that Project had the current Distrubance animation and Disturbance had the current Project animation, they would also have to switch when you get them, so that you'd get Disturbance at level 1 and Project at level 10 as a Sage, which I don't see the point in doing.

 

 

 

How is the move you suggest they should give Sages not a Hadouken?

 

You have lost it. Those rocks arent much bigger than the droid torso's or other junk. And they arent moving that fast. I'll take the shotgun, anyday, especially with a rifled slug. You actually want to bring up the ewok battle on endor? Really? Then you want to state that our current technology for projectile weapons is stronger? Really? Then you want to talk about stormtrooper marksmanship and game mechanic range limitations? Stop. Just stop.

 

Lets look at the assassin...they can cast lightning JUST LIKE sorcerers can, and have lightning moves off their sabers that sorcerers dont (Surge). But wait, according to your logic, horribly flawed as it is, since assassins are more melee specialists they shouldnt be able to cast the same type of force powers??? Silly. The limitation of range has been put in, as a game mechanic. There is NO SUCH limitation on powers that can be used. How did you miss that? So there IS ABSOLUTELY no problem with Sages and Shadows having disturbance as their "project" ani, one with a 30m range, one with a 10m range. ABSOLUTELY no problem with it, since clearly the mirrored inquisitor class WHICH was DONE FIRST AND BEST has no problem with it.

 

Although I would still like to see a saberthrow for the project ani. After all it is a throw, and it makes sense that the consulars would learn a throw before knights. See that is a difference between classes, NOT class subtypes...lol

Edited January 30, 2012 by Dyvim

[iDiggory]

Dyv, I'm sorry, but you are just blatently ignoring criticisms. You act like disagreement with your ideas is an attack on your person, and that's absolutely not conducive to actual discussion.

 

Is there are a legitimate issue with the project delay due to the instant nature of Sorcs? Yes. But the jump to "completely change project" isn't a logical one. You don't have premises that lead you to it deductively. You've just arbitrarily picked one solution, and are furious that people don't endorse yours.

 

1) More Sith than jedi throw debris/junk in the movies. Jedi rarely do it. Every Sith does it. Basing the jedi class on something that SITH do more than Jedi is questionable at best. Furthermore, debris throwing has traditionally been classified as a darkside trait going back 15 years in multiple lucasarts officially licensed, seminal jedi games.

 

First of all, as has already been said, this game is set in the Expanded Universe. Jedi DO use telekinesis. Do we have a ton of examples of it in the movies? No. Know why? Because Jedis in the movies were all based around the light side of the force which, as Yoda says, is used only for defense, never for attack. And we have even fewer examples of Consulars using Force Pushes as we do anything else, and we have no examples at all of abilities that create a tangible, visible force attack (a la Satele Shan).

 

If you have an issue basing a Jedi class on something Jedi "rarely" do in movies, you should have a significantly larger issue basing them on something Jedi never do in them.

 

Finally (and another poster already called you out on it, not that you listened), the class is not BASED on debris throwing. Debris throwing is their basic skill. It's the first foray into the world of telekinetics. It's vastly more simple to achieve than the kind of concentration air-based force abilities would require. Sages, deciding to abandon lightsaber combat to focus on refining force techniques, are able to invest the time into learning much more difficult techniques through which they are able to use the force to contain pressurized air and turn that into an attack. Shadows focus more deeply on lightsaber combat, so they don't spend the same amount of time learning about the force.

 

Let me put it this way. You think of a Shadow, and that makes you think Consular. In the lore, Shadows are Sentinels (no, really, they are). The three branches of the Jedi Order (well, major branches) are the Knights (largest), Consulars (second largest) and the Sentinels (by far the smallest). Jedi Sentinels and Jedi Shadows aren't actually knights or consulars--they belong to their own sect of the order that focuses on blending the force with technological knowledge with lightsaber techniques. The Jedi Sentinel class uses this expanded knowledge of the force to focus on the highly acrobatic Knight techniques. Shadows are closer to the consulars, spending a lot of time on learning basic force abilities and stealth techniques (but still putting the MAJORITY of their focus on lightsaber combat). Putting Sentinels with Guardians, and Shadows with Sages, was a design choice, not a lore one.

 

They should not have access to the kind of force abilities that a Sage has. That is why they are only able to use the more basic telekinetic attacks, in which they use dense debris instead of turning the air around them into their dense materials.

 

3) The animations are horribly flawed in concept. This has been stated a million times. They are ignorant of the environment and expect you to believe there are endless supplies of junk buried at your feet, everywhere. Its beyond stupid. They demand you buy into something that is so obviously impossible its just ludicrous.

 

Stating something doesn't make it true--stop expressing your opinions like facts. It doesn't strengthen your argument, it weakens it. Fact of the matter is that I have no reason to accept this as a premise, because your feeling is the only support it has.

 

The only flaw in the concepts that has any wide agreement in this thread is that Project should choose its debris based on the environment. VERY few people have had issues with the "under our feet" argument. More have endorsed a plan that would select the debris based on location, but that's the biggest issue raised with Project. Droids out of Tattooine sands, boulders when in forests/plains, "parts" when on ships and in buildings sounds about right to me.

 

4) Together, project and throw create a coolness gap...other classes have much better themes...The jedi theme is junk...literally. Compared to other classes in the game, junk throwing is the most ridiculous and the most contrary to the IP. As one player posted, who actually LIKED pebblestorm...he liked it because he felt is was more embarrassing to die from it, so it was a way of taunting his enemies...yeah, that is definitely the sign of a 5 star animation and the signature skill for the jedi caster class....you should BE EMBARRASSED when you die from it because it looks so ridiculous...

 

This is ENTIRELY an opinion. Do not offer opinions as facts. It's not a valid argument. And quick note for future debates, posting the opinion of the extreme minority (such as 1 poster in a 34 page topic) is never a convincing tactic.

 

5) There are FAR better options available, some of which are in this thread. Options with more WOW factor and more JEDI appeal.

 

What makes them far better? Because you like them more? That has nothing to do with it. Not to mention that most of the options put forth in the thread completely violate jedi lore.

 

6) The project animation is clearly not suited to be instant...it takes TIME to pull up junk and TIME to spin it in the air, and TIME to hurl it. It needs an activation timer, EVEN if you like throwing junk. This REALLY is not debatable, if you want to be honest. The delay it introduces is unacceptable and is likely being addressed by BW as we post about it.

 

Which has nothing to do with the current debate. Nor is it a good argument, because you arbitrarily assume that it isn't an option to change Shock to match Project.

 

And you have absolutely no foundation for the fact that it needs an activation timer. It's an instant cast ability because you don't need to focus on the ability--you can do it while moving, and it is more than complete by the time you finish your 1.5s CD. Telekinetic Wave and Disturbance need activation timers because the Jedi has to stay still and focus on condensing the air around them into a highly pressurized form--it takes a hell of a lot more focus to create a completely contained zone in the environment around you (that you then put pressure on) then it takes to lift something out of the ground and then hurl it (which only requires you apply force to one or two sides of the object).

 

We get it--you don't like it. But the fact of the matter is that these choices were perfectly in keeping with the expanded universe lore. If you are only going to revert to the movies, then that's your choice. But the movies are only a very, very small fraction of the lore at this point. And it's an extremely poor choice, as we only have 1 Consular example in the movies, being Yoda. And he happened to believe in a purely defensive application of the force, and was also a master swordsman (unlike Sages).

 

But Consulars in the expanded universe? Take Kazdan Paratus, another Consular. He used projectiles as his primary form of attack, and (against Starkiller) used his telekinetic ability to create "storms" of debris.

[jedi-outcast]

Sign me up for a saber throw to replace Project and a ball of force animation to replace TK Throw. These are the best suggestions I have seen on these forums by far. If they implemented this I would subscribe to the game for 3 years +. I am completely serious. It bothers me that much.

[Dyvim]

Dyv, I'm sorry, but you are just blatently ignoring criticisms. You act like disagreement with your ideas is an attack on your person, and that's absolutely not conducive to actual discussion.

 

Is there are a legitimate issue with the project delay due to the instant nature of Sorcs? Yes. But the jump to "completely change project" isn't a logical one. You don't have premises that lead you to it deductively. You've just arbitrarily picked one solution, and are furious that people don't endorse yours.

 

 

 

First of all, as has already been said, this game is set in the Expanded Universe. Jedi DO use telekinesis. Do we have a ton of examples of it in the movies? No. Know why? Because Jedis in the movies were all based around the light side of the force which, as Yoda says, is used only for defense, never for attack. And we have even fewer examples of Consulars using Force Pushes as we do anything else, and we have no examples at all of abilities that create a tangible, visible force attack (a la Satele Shan).

 

If you have an issue basing a Jedi class on something Jedi "rarely" do in movies, you should have a significantly larger issue basing them on something Jedi never do in them.

 

Finally (and another poster already called you out on it, not that you listened), the class is not BASED on debris throwing. Debris throwing is their basic skill. It's the first foray into the world of telekinetics. It's vastly more simple to achieve than the kind of concentration air-based force abilities would require. Sages, deciding to abandon lightsaber combat to focus on refining force techniques, are able to invest the time into learning much more difficult techniques through which they are able to use the force to contain pressurized air and turn that into an attack. Shadows focus more deeply on lightsaber combat, so they don't spend the same amount of time learning about the force.

 

Let me put it this way. You think of a Shadow, and that makes you think Consular. In the lore, Shadows are Sentinels (no, really, they are). The three branches of the Jedi Order (well, major branches) are the Knights (largest), Consulars (second largest) and the Sentinels (by far the smallest). Jedi Sentinels and Jedi Shadows aren't actually knights or consulars--they belong to their own sect of the order that focuses on blending the force with technological knowledge with lightsaber techniques. The Jedi Sentinel class uses this expanded knowledge of the force to focus on the highly acrobatic Knight techniques. Shadows are closer to the consulars, spending a lot of time on learning basic force abilities and stealth techniques (but still putting the MAJORITY of their focus on lightsaber combat). Putting Sentinels with Guardians, and Shadows with Sages, was a design choice, not a lore one.

 

They should not have access to the kind of force abilities that a Sage has. That is why they are only able to use the more basic telekinetic attacks, in which they use dense debris instead of turning the air around them into their dense materials.

 

 

 

Stating something doesn't make it true--stop expressing your opinions like facts. It doesn't strengthen your argument, it weakens it. Fact of the matter is that I have no reason to accept this as a premise, because your feeling is the only support it has.

 

The only flaw in the concepts that has any wide agreement in this thread is that Project should choose its debris based on the environment. VERY few people have had issues with the "under our feet" argument. More have endorsed a plan that would select the debris based on location, but that's the biggest issue raised with Project. Droids out of Tattooine sands, boulders when in forests/plains, "parts" when on ships and in buildings sounds about right to me.

 

 

 

This is ENTIRELY an opinion. Do not offer opinions as facts. It's not a valid argument. And quick note for future debates, posting the opinion of the extreme minority (such as 1 poster in a 34 page topic) is never a convincing tactic.

 

 

 

What makes them far better? Because you like them more? That has nothing to do with it. Not to mention that most of the options put forth in the thread completely violate jedi lore.

 

 

Which has nothing to do with the current debate. Nor is it a good argument, because you arbitrarily assume that it isn't an option to change Shock to match Project.

 

And you have absolutely no foundation for the fact that it needs an activation timer. It's an instant cast ability because you don't need to focus on the ability--you can do it while moving, and it is more than complete by the time you finish your 1.5s CD. Telekinetic Wave and Disturbance need activation timers because the Jedi has to stay still and focus on condensing the air around them into a highly pressurized form--it takes a hell of a lot more focus to create a completely contained zone in the environment around you (that you then put pressure on) then it takes to lift something out of the ground and then hurl it (which only requires you apply force to one or two sides of the object).

 

We get it--you don't like it. But the fact of the matter is that these choices were perfectly in keeping with the expanded universe lore. If you are only going to revert to the movies, then that's your choice. But the movies are only a very, very small fraction of the lore at this point. And it's an extremely poor choice, as we only have 1 Consular example in the movies, being Yoda. And he happened to believe in a purely defensive application of the force, and was also a master swordsman (unlike Sages).

 

But Consulars in the expanded universe? Take Kazdan Paratus, another Consular. He used projectiles as his primary form of attack, and (against Starkiller) used his telekinetic ability to create "storms" of debris.

 

I have no problem with criticism, when it is accurate. And I dont ignore it, I invalidate it when it is wrong. And I enjoy very much debating and reading other peoples ideas. But people that cant debate with logic and ignore facts, don't get it done. Like what you just did. You ignore facts, call them my opinion, then you wonder why, when you masquerade your opinion for good criticism, I dont praise you for it? No I am going to call you on it.

 

The ideas like saber throw as a replacement were not originally mine. So its not the case where I am ignoring the ideas of others. Now, yes, there is clear reason to want to replace Throw and Project. You choose not to see them. People have been posting about changing them ever since I was in beta, and before from what I read when I got into beta last summer. So now WHO is IGNORING the criticism and the facts? YOU. Read the post before yours and after yours...what do those players say? Or would you like to ignore that, too? Yes there are people who like it as it is, I get that, but those LIKES are inconsistent with good animation mechanics (environmentally ignorant, magic buried junkyards everywhere, damage delay) and a jedi theme (junk throwing) for the class.

 

Yes, jedi do use telekinesis. Perhaps in all the scenes in the movies we have of jedi training other jedi, you can mention ONE scene where they train to pick up objects and throw them at targets. One. Shouldnt be too much to ask when you are basing the entire caster class on throwing junk at people. But who uses it more? The Sith. In the movies, and not just telekinesis, throwing objects at targets. EVERY SINGLE SITH DOES IT. Much much more than jedi do it. FACT. ARGUE WITH IT. We have been through this before in this thread. You can find examples of anything in the EU. People want to sell books, so they have to come up with new twists and new things to be interesting. But the movies are the ultimate canon. So they didnt just take something that jedi dont do much of in the movies and made it their primary skill...they took something that SITH DO MORE, and something that has been labelled a darkside skill for FIFTEEN YEARS in jedi game after jedi game. FACT. ARGUE WITH IT. I can find jedi that shoot lightning in the EU. But Sith do it and do it more. So yes, you can find just about anything in the EU. Like jawa jedi and jedi shooting green lightning. But you dont base your jedi caster class around it.

 

So yes, you can do things not in the movies, But when you take the two fundamental skills of the class, that are impacted by talents in the double digits, and center then on debris throwing, then YES, DEBRIS THROWING DEFINES THE CLASS. It is the hallmark. Just like lightning is for Inquisitors. Perhaps you would like to argue that lightning isnt the hallmark of inquistors in this game? FACT. ARGUE WITH IT. When you see lightning you think inquistors. When you see rocks and junk, consular, IT IS THAT SIMPLE. That is so obvious, it makes me marvel that I should have to state it.

 

As far as things jedi never do...they DO use force push. Telekinetic force energy attacks, like what satele does in hope, are the same basic thing, with just dramatized graphics. You are knocking someone back with force energy, be it invisible or not. You are impacting them with something. Some kind of energy. So no, its not a stretch at all, it is a logical continuation of a movie ability into a game environment. Something we actually see jedi do, alot. There is no violation of lore. And no violation of basic mechanics (instant) or basic reality (no magic dorid graveyards, no magic debris fields all just conveniently located at your feet, wherever you might be...) NO ONE can even begin to justify that crap, other than with a "but I like it, so its stupidity doesnt matter". Also, perhaps you would care to explain how having saber throw replace project is a violation of lore...lol. Oh comeon, that should be entertaining. Or even of common sense. If a jedi is going to throw ANYTHING at a target and guide it with the force, what makes more sense than what is already in his hand, and can cut through most anything??? What makes more sense than that? Comeon, let's hear it....rofl.

 

Now this next point is laughable....how do you KNOW that shadows dont spend the same amt of time learning about the force? That is stupid. How do you know its more difficult for a shadow or a sage to force push/impact with a projectile? I destroyed this argument before by looking at what assassins and sorcerers do. Give this a try...you want to have a discussion, try refuting my points and facts, like I am doing with yours. Assassins have lightning, sorcerers have lightning...assassins can do things with lightsabers and lightning (surge) that sorcerers dont do....does this mean that a sorcerer cant do it? No...what it does mean is that there are game mechanic limitations...arbitrary limitations (as we saw when con/inq/shadow/sin range went from 15 to 10 m). It makes no statement, whatsoever, about the abilitites or force powers of the classes, OTHER THAN range as a game mechanic with certain abilitites. So there is nothing that would let you make a factual argument that a shadow cant do some kind of force technique. They can use FiB out to 30m. How much concentration or force knowledge or focus does it take to damage multiple targets, do it at the same maximum range of sages, and oh btw, you also get a heal from it, and it is INSTANT...and yet Shadows cant use an instant version of force push? ROFLMAO. They have the whole balance tree. Where is the alleged difference of force knowledge???? It is in some trees but not others? Yes your argument is completely ridiculous. GO make a better one. Really.

 

This thread is full of people that have problems with project and throw...problems with them as junk throwers, problems with them as magical junk throwers, and problems with them in appearance and mechanics. JUST LIKE the threads in beta were. To say very few people dislike anything other than the ani's environmental ignorance is wrong, try reading this thread. How about the poster that posted right after you or above you? Who is ignoring facts, feedback, and criticism, again?

 

And talk about ignoring more facts...you state that it takes time to focus. But it doesnt take time to focus and find that magical piece of junk at your feet? It doesnt take time to focus and pull it out of the ground? It doesnt take time to focus and levitate and spin it? It doesnt take time to hurl it at the target? Wow, really? The animation CLEARLY needs an activation timer, because it takes TIME. You really want to stake any kind of credibility on that? You wonder why I have a hard time taking you seriously?

 

But hey, its not personal, and I dont want to convey that. As I said, the ideas I like most from this thread atm, werent originally mine. I enjoy reading dissenting points of view, and appreciate the time people put in to write them. But if they dont hold water, they arent going to sway me or change the minds of all the other players that dont want to throw junk and debris.

Edited February 1, 2012 by Dyvim

[Warchamp]

Don't change Project to a saber throw. Project is a unique and awesome(imo) ability.

[TheNeox]

Don't change Project to a saber throw. Project is a unique and awesome(imo) ability.

 

I 100% agree. Leave Project. I dont need a Jedi Sentinel ripoff skill.

[Dyvim]

I 100% agree. Leave Project. I dont need a Jedi Sentinel ripoff skill.

 

Really, you want to leave project as is? What a surprise, since you posted a thread with your idea to copy project, with a 3 second loop, to replace Throw. So wow, this represents a REAL position change, I am glad you took the time to post it again. How shocking...that you would have to jump back in this thread....well not really. What, no link to your thread this time?

 

Where are all those rocks going to come from when I am in a building or in a spaceship? Are they magic rocks? OR is this star trek, where we can materialize rocks out of thin air with a transporter? Or is this some generic fantasy game, where we can transmute metal or anything else INTO rocks??? BTW, its GUARDIANS that have the real saber throw, the sentinel version is only good when the target is at or below 20% health and is limited in range to 10m.

 

Makes perfect sense that a caster class would learn to throw their saber early, and that it would take melee types until LEVEL 36 to accomplish the same thing. Especially since sages do virtually nothing with their lightsaber.

 

But yes, you are right, it is silly to think that a jedi class that specializes in throwing objects, by your own claim, would throw the MOST OBVIOUS object a jedi has, that would do alot more damage than a rock...because when I see a thrown rock I think Jedi...and when I see a thrown lightsaber I think...oh wait...no, I guess you are completely wrong.

Edited February 1, 2012 by Dyvim

[TheNeox]

Really, you want to leave project as is? What a surprise, since you posted a thread with your idea to copy project, with a 3 second loop, to replace Throw. So wow, this represents a REAL position change, I am glad you took the time to post it again. How shocking...that you would have to jump back in this thread....well not really. What, no link to your thread this time?

 

Where are all those rocks going to come from when I am in a building or in a spaceship? Are they magic rocks? OR is this star trek, where we can materialize rocks out of thin air with a transporter? Or is this some generic fantasy game, where we can transmute metal or anything else INTO rocks??? BTW, its GUARDIANS that have the real saber throw, the sentinel version is only good when the target is at or below 20% health and is limited in range to 10m.

 

Makes perfect sense that a caster class would learn to throw their saber early, and that it would take melee types until LEVEL 36 to accomplish the same thing. Especially since sages do virtually nothing with their lightsaber.

 

 

 

But yes, you are right, it is silly to think that a jedi class that specializes in throwing objects, by your own claim, would throw the MOST OBVIOUS object a jedi has, that would do alot more damage than a rock...because when I see a thrown rock I think Jedi...and when I see a thrown lightsaber I think...oh wait...no, I guess you are completely wrong.

 

I write one sentence and you go of into a wall-of-text frenzy. You cant handle that ppl like Project and "throwing junk"?

 

And i agree with you on one point. That pulling a rock chunk out of a spaceship floor is a bit wierd. But consider the Biowares standpoint. For the Project animation to pick up the right chuck from the ground would require alot of work. They have to impliment new chucks and map out every area in the entire game for Project to pick the right chuck at the right time.

 

"So why not remove Project then" you ask. Well, its a uniqe animation that stands out from every other animation in the game. So why change the one thing that seperates us from the others, even if its "throwing junk".

 

I never said that throwing a lightsaber is a bad idea, im saying its already taken. Same goes for Hadouken.

 

PS: I could animate suggestions for Project, but i doubt you would like them. Since they involve the use of earth materials.

Edited February 1, 2012 by TheNeox

[Ohoni]

You have lost it. Those rocks arent much bigger than the droid torso's or other junk. And they arent moving that fast.

 

They'd still do more damage than a blaster bolt would, particularly against armor. F=Ma.

 

You actually want to bring up the ewok battle on endor? Really? Then you want to state that our current technology for projectile weapons is stronger? Really? Then you want to talk about stormtrooper marksmanship and game mechanic range limitations? Stop. Just stop.

 

You may not like it, but it's all true.

 

Lets look at the assassin...they can cast lightning JUST LIKE sorcerers can, and have lightning moves off their sabers that sorcerers dont (Surge).

 

But they can't use the more advanced lightning moves that only a Sorcerer can access, just like a Shadow can't use the more advanced TK moves like a Sage can.

 

Yes, jedi do use telekinesis. Perhaps in all the scenes in the movies we have of jedi training other jedi, you can mention ONE scene where they train to pick up objects and throw them at targets.

 

Can you name even one scene in which a Jedi fires a big blue fireball at anyone? Even one? Is there even a scene of a Sith firing a fireball?

 

As far as things jedi never do...they DO use force push.

 

Force push is not a striking attack. It does not damage the target except by them hitting something else. It's like the difference between an open palmed shove and a closed fisted punch. TK object throwing has far more in common with Force Push than Disturbance does, since Force Push is just throwing the target, rather than throwing something at the target.

[TheNeox]

Force push is not a striking attack. It does not damage the target except by them hitting something else. It's like the difference between an open palmed shove and a closed fisted punch. TK object throwing has far more in common with Force Push than Disturbance does, since Force Push is just throwing the target, rather than throwing something at the target.

 

I couldt agree with you more on this point.

 

The force push thats being used in the movies is more like a knockback then a damagedealer. I also think that the ability and animation is already in the game. Jedi guardians of sentinels have that ability, if im not mistaken (knocking back the target several meters).

[Dyvim]

They'd still do more damage than a blaster bolt would, particularly against armor. F=Ma.

 

 

 

You may not like it, but it's all true.

 

 

 

But they can't use the more advanced lightning moves that only a Sorcerer can access, just like a Shadow can't use the more advanced TK moves like a Sage can.

 

 

 

Can you name even one scene in which a Jedi fires a big blue fireball at anyone? Even one? Is there even a scene of a Sith firing a fireball?

 

 

 

Force push is not a striking attack. It does not damage the target except by them hitting something else. It's like the difference between an open palmed shove and a closed fisted punch. TK object throwing has far more in common with Force Push than Disturbance does, since Force Push is just throwing the target, rather than throwing something at the target.

 

More damage than a blaster bolt? Just what are you basing that wild assertion on? If that was true storm troopers would have a slingshot...geesh. f=ma applied to energy projectiles? Really? I dont think that is going to represent their damage. At this point you are just posting silliness to troll. Yeah, rocks are better than blasters...genius. Let's take a poll on that one. How about a flame thrower, want to try reducing its damage into f=ma? See how stupid it is to try and use f=ma for energy weapons now and claim rocks do more DAMAGE? Probably not. But do us a favor and stop posting the wrong idea over and over.

 

What is all true? That the ewok battle was comic relief and shouldnt be taken seriously in any way, by anyone? Yep that is true, accept it...lol

 

Really, they cant? Assassins can shoot 30 m lightning, just like a shadow can shoot 30m pebbles (with force potency). Assassins can also Surge off their sabers that is a chain lightning. Pretty advanced, just like sorcerers. Same type of attack, just a different delivery.

 

So they obviously can do it, just like they have the balance/madness tree in common with each other...few things are more advanced than the FiB. Cant tackle that one, huh? There are game mechanics at work, not necessarily force lore, hence the reduction on range from 15 to 10m. Its like comparing two martial arts...say tae kwon do and hap ki do. THey are somewhat different philosphies and have a different mix of skills. To say that one cant punch because they primarily kick is ludicrous though. They approach combat in different ways. But you can not make statements about the whole class' force knowledge or prowesss....both shadows and sages have 30m force attacks, and a variety of them. They have different skills, which is needed to have different classes, but they both have 30m force attacks, so that argument is gone. Keep trying.

 

Can you name a scene where a smuggler low kicks someone and a dazed circle appears over their head? Again, the game dramatizes some animations. The basics are the same, sateles attacks are versions of force push, dramatized. A palm heel strike can do a helluva lot of damage. But again your analogy is ludicrous. Why not a punch? All a punch is is a transfer of your body weight into force and transfering that force. Pretty much the same basic principle as behind a force push...you generate force then transfer it to a target. Elementary. Again, explaining the obvious to you.

 

How did you get fireballs? lol Can you name one time when a sith causes a creeping dark mist to appear that leaches life? lol. No, of course not, but it is in this game, and it fits with the appropriate sith theme and lore. Just like a force energy attack fits with the lore.

 

Really force push is not a damaging attack? Really? It is just a knockback? Pay attention, argument destroyed in 3,2,1...how about force wave? Its a knockback in its description...yet guess what, IT DOES DAMAGE. Anytime you hit somebody with something, common sense dictates it can do damage. Force push HITS THE TARGET with force. Pushing is not throwing. If it was throwing, it would be called throw, not push. It can do damage. Force push is the basis for all the jedi force energy projectile attacks.

 

Really, unless you can advance your argument meaningfully, or COME UP WITH A NEW IDEA, give it a rest. Your idea is to keep the crap we have. We get it. That is not what this thread is about. Start your own thread. Sing the praises of the current animations in it. Im sure it will be wildly popular.

Edited February 1, 2012 by Dyvim

[Dyvim]

I couldt agree with you more on this point.

 

The force push thats being used in the movies is more like a knockback then a damagedealer. I also think that the ability and animation is already in the game. Jedi guardians of sentinels have that ability, if im not mistaken (knocking back the target several meters).

 

Jedi sentinels use lightsaber strikes, does that mean we should remove all the lightsaber strikes from sages (not that they use them that much, well early on consulars do a bit) and shadows???? After all we wouldnt want any rip-off sentinel skills...see how silly that sounds? Both classes are JEDI, they will have things in common.

 

Knockbacks do damage in this game...like force wave. Again, its basic common sense. To KNOCK something back, you HIT IT with something. That can or does do damage. It also makes sense that consulars would learn the skill earlier, as they do (GUARDIANS learn force push at 26, and BTW it does do kinetic damage) and then learn MORE ADVANCED versions of the basic knockback, just like the knight classes have MORE ADVANCED versions of the saber strike that they later learn. Those more advanced versions of knockback can be represented by force energy projectile style attacks.

 

Just like it would make sense for consulars to learn to throw their saber VERY early, when guardians dont learn it until 36.

 

Does that make sense to you?

 

BTW, I dont have a problem with people liking the current ani's. Opinions are opinions. People like pebblestorm. You want to change it. Do you have a problem with people that like it? What I do have a problem with are people that come into a thread where we are trying to have a discussion about changes to them and troll the thread and repeatedly post in favor of not changing them. They like it, we get it. They can make their own threads. This thread is to offer ideas on change. Then many of them cant seem to grasp a decent argument with both hands if it was jumping in front of them. Like Mr. f=ma, rocks are better than blaster bolts. That is so silly its stupid. No, he isnt stupid, but his trolling is.

Edited February 1, 2012 by Dyvim

[TheNeox]

Really force push is not a damaging attack? Really? It is just a knockback? Pay attention, argument destroyed in 3,2,1...how about force wave? Its a knockback in its description...yet guess what, IT DOES DAMAGE. Anytime you hit somebody with something, common sense dictates it can do damage. Force push HITS THE TARGET with force. Pushing is not throwing. If it was throwing, it would be called throw, not push. It can do damage. Force push is the basis for all the jedi force energy projectile attacks.

 

Really, unless you can advance your argument meaningfully, or COME UP WITH A NEW IDEA, give it a rest. Your idea is to keep the crap we have. We get it. That is not what this thread is about. Start your own thread. Sing the praises of the current animations in it. Im sure it will be wildly popular.

 

*Taking a deep breath because you are clearly missing the point...*

 

Lets just call it "movie force push" at this point in time.

 

When diffrent characters used the "movie force push" it was for unbalancing its foe, not to give them a black eye.

Yes, common sence dictates that ppl take damage when you hit them. Thats true, 10 points to Griffindore.

 

Im going to take a wild stab here:

Do you think that Force Wave has a damage number on it because its ment to be used as a nuke? OR. Is it ment to knock ppl back? (The devs just put a number on it to show the player that the spell hit its target) Just because it has a damage number on it doesent mean its INTENDED as a damagedealer.

 

For example. How would one indicate a hit of Force Wave without having any damage on the ability?

If it was resisted it would say "resist" over everyones head. But what about if it hit? Should it say "Hit" or would it be easier to just put damage on the ability so that the damagenumbers itself would indicate it? Thats a hard question, but i bet you can figure it out.

 

This thread has clearly sidetracked.

 

You want me to help getting it back on track? Okay here it is, my suggestion for Project (i know your going to hate it regardless, but why not)

 

The character does the animation for Force in Balace (the snap fingers animation, or something close to it) and small rock comes flying from the ground under the target, hitting it in the chin. Almost like a uppercut. The animation could be very close to instant because of the short traveltime of the rock.

Edited February 1, 2012 by TheNeox

[Dyvim]

*Taking a deep breath because you are clearly missing the point...*

 

Lets just call it "movie force push" at this point in time.

 

When diffrent characters used the "movie force push" it was for unbalancing its foe, not to give them a black eye.

Yes, common sence dictates that ppl take damage when you hit them. Thats true, 10 points to Griffindore.

 

Im going to take a wild stab here:

Do you think that Force Wave has a damage number on it because its ment to be used as a nuke? OR. Is it ment to knock ppl back? (The devs just put a number on it to show the player that the spell hit its target) Just because it has a damage number on it doesent mean its INTENDED as a damagedealer.

 

For example. How would one indicate a hit of Force Wave without having any damage on the ability?

If it was resisted it would say "resist" over everyones head. But what about if it hit? Should it say "Hit" or would it be easier to just put damage on the ability so that the damagenumbers itself would indicate it? Thats a hard question, but i bet you can figure it out.

 

This thread has clearly sidetracked.

 

You want me to help getting it back on track? Okay here it is, my suggestion for Project (i know your going to hate it regardless, but why not)

 

The character does the animation for Force in Balace (the snap fingers animation, or something close to it) and small rock comes flying from the ground under the target, hitting it in the chin. Almost like a uppercut. The animation could be very close to instant because of the short traveltime of the rock.

 

Wow, let me get this straight, the only reason that force wave does damage is so that players can tell who they affected with it??? It does damage because it is the consulars FIRST AOE when other classes are also getting an AOE early on (like force sweep). It also knockbacks because being out of melee range is one of the consulars best defenses, since they wear light armour and dont get force bubble until later or a tank companion. Make sense? Maybe you should play more of the classes? Get a better feel for the game?

 

You indicate a hit with force wave by being knocked back, which is pretty obvious in the game. If they arent moved they arent effected...that is if it was just meant to be a knockback, but again, it is MEANT TO DAMAGE, and is the AOE equivalent to sweep, roughly.

 

Better arguments please.

 

Now, as far as your idea, yes, please lets have ideas. I take them seriously. I would actually like it better than what we have....lol. BUT, here are the problems...where does the rock come from? Again with magic rocks? Problem 2, an animation like that is VERY hard to see who is attacking you. Very hard. You have multiple sages in a WZ. Alot of finger snapping...which sage just attacked you??? Your animation means I would have no flippin idea. So no, a force saber throw is infinitely better. Even if you dont see the saber before it hits you, you can darn well see where it returns too...lol.

 

That is also why it makes sense to combine something like project, or your idea, with forcequake. Right now in a WZ or on Ilum, its hard to tell which sages are quaking what. So if the sages were also pulling up objects, environmentally CORRECT objects, and hurling them into the kill zone, then 1) the animation would look more potent, more impressive, and 2) you could tell which sage was quaking which area, and 3) junk tossing would be preserved for those that love it so...make sense?

 

Again, its not personal, thanks for actually bringing an idea. Thats the fun part of the thread. Not this forum pvp. I dont like suffering trolls when alot of other people have put in alot of thought to the thread. Perhaps you can appreciate that idea, since you have taken the time to make a thread of your own?

 

And for pete's sake how is Shock the problem, that is just silly. It works, it does what it is supposed to do. Imagine that, an instant damage skill that is instant. It is a lesser animation compared to the lightning manipulations learned later, so it fits in perfectly with the idea of skill progression.

Edited February 1, 2012 by Dyvim

[TheNeox]

Wow, let me get this straight, the only reason that force wave does damage is so that players can tell who they affected with it??? It does damage because it is the consulars FIRST AOE when other classes are also getting an AOE early on (like force sweep). It also knockbacks because being out of melee range is one of the consulars best defenses, since they wear light armour and dont get force bubble until later. Make sense? Maybe you should play more of the classes? Get a better feel for the game?

 

You indicate a hit with force wave by being knocked back, which is pretty obvious in the game. If they arent moved they arent effected...that is if it was just meant to be a knockback, but again, it is MEANT TO DAMAGE, and is the AOE equivalent to sweep, roughly.

 

Better arguments please.

 

Now, as far as your idea, yes, please lets have ideas. I take them seriously. I would actually like it better than what we have....lol. BUT, here are the problems...where does the rock come from? Again with magic rocks? Problem 2, an animation like that is VERY hard to see who is attacking you. Very hard. You have multiple sages in a WZ. Alot of finger snapping...which sage just attacked you??? Your animation means I would have no flippin idea. So no, a force saber throw is infinitely better. Even if you dont see the saber before it hits you, you can darn well see where it returns too...lol.

 

Waow.. this deservs a facepalm... no wait TWO facepalms... Like double rainbow, just with facepalms instead. This reply surely deservs it.

 

Okay, lets do this systematicly.

 

1: Yes, i am actually saying that one of biggest reason Force Wave has a damagenumber on it is to indicate hits. At lower lvles it did have a pretty good number on it, but its core usage was not to damage. The numbers are there to connect the animation to the character hit by the spell. If the numbers wasent there, there would be no sence of impact and you would have to guese when the ability hit. Ofc the character moves when its hit by the knockback. But the number servs as a link between cause and effect. Having you compare Sweeping Strike and Force Wave actually made me laugh in real life, and i give you credit for that.

 

And please. Spare me the lecutre on Jedi Consular. Im well aware of what this class does. Im not bragging in any way here. But im Battlemaster Jedi Shadow, and i dident Ilum farm to get it. I dont have 300 characters as you do, but im resonably experienced in this game and other MMO's in general.

 

2:Having you pick apart my idea is very amusing to say the least. Some random "lols" here and there makes it even better. From the method you are using, you must have extensive experience from gamedesign. I come to this conclusion from your expert way of pointing out that your Saber Throw ability is better then mine in any way, shape or form.

 

Im starting to see the real troll here sir, and its you.

 

EDIT PS: Im loving the random edits you do to your posts. First edition made you look like a 14 year old. This one is far better.

Edited February 1, 2012 by TheNeox

[Dyvim]

Waow.. this deservs a facepalm... no wait TWO facepalms... Like double rainbow, just with facepalms instead. This reply surely deservs it.

 

Okay, lets do this systematicly.

 

1: Yes, i am actually saying that one of biggest reason Force Wave has a damagenumber on it is to indicate hits. At lower lvles it did have a pretty good number on it, but its core usage was not to damage. The numbers are there to connect the animation to the character hit by the spell. If the numbers wasent there, there would be no sence of impact and you would have to guese when the ability hit. Ofc the character moves when its hit by the knockback. But the number servs as a link between cause and effect. Having you compare Sweeping Strike and Force Wave actually made me laugh in real life, and i give you credit for that.

 

And please. Spare me the lecutre on Jedi Consular. Im well aware of what this class does. Im not bragging in any way here. But im Battlemaster Jedi Shadow, and i dident Ilum farm to get it. I dont have 300 characters as you do, but im resonably experienced in this game and other MMO's in general.

 

2:Having you pick apart my idea is very amusing to say the least. Some random "lols" here and there makes it even better. From the method you are using, you must have extensive experience from gamedesign. I come to this conclusion from your expert way of pointing out that your Saber Throw ability is better then mine in any way, shape or form.

 

Im starting to see the real troll here sir, and its you.

 

EDIT PS: Im loving the random edits you do to your posts. First edition made you look like a 14 year old. This one is far better.

 

They arent random, I actually pay attention to what I write. By the way, it is spelled ISN'T not isent. I realize english isnt your first language and normally I wouldnt bother, but since its in your sig, you might want to get it right. Or not. But again, normally I wouldnt bother, and I respect that you are not working in your native language. You can keep it, seeing such a ridiculous statement with the mispelling kind of just perfects the absurdity...lol, and it makes me chuckle a little more.

 

You are so far off base on point 1 that yes, it is laughable. Lets see...on my 50 sage the tooltip says Force Wave: 578-609, ALL targets and knockback within 8m. Standard and weak enemies are knocked down for 3 seconds.

 

On my 50 Sentinel, Sweep: Strikes up to 5 enemies, within 5 meters. 950-1015 damage. Stuns weak and standard enemies for 1.5 seconds.

 

Ok, so sweep does more damage, but has a limit of 5 enemies, and a shorter range. It also has a shorter "stun" for standard and weak and doesnt knockback. Seems ABOUT EVEN to me. You get force sweep at level 3, and guess what...you get force wave at level three...imagine that JUST LIKE I SAID. They are comparable and BOTH ARE DESIGNED as AOE damage skills with additional effects. Or maybe you can come up with something that sounds reasonable to disagree? I won't hold my breath...lol

 

Also, I give EXACT precise reasons why yours have flaws, and saber throw would be better. Funny how you dont mention those, or try to refute them. I'll say it again...WHERE do the rocks come from, and HOW can you tell which sage just attacked you? Start answering the serious questions if you want me to take you seriously and respect anything you type.

Edited February 1, 2012 by Dyvim

[TheNeox]

You truly think that Force Wave was designd as a aoe dps spell and not a knockback with aditional damage?

 

A simple yes or no.

[Dyvim]

You truly think that Force Wave was designd as a aoe dps spell and not a knockback with aditional damage?

 

A simple yes or no.

 

I think what I posted. That knockbacks do damage in this game. Do you think it is coincidence that knights get an aoe sweep at lvl 3 and consular get an aoe wave at level 3, that do comparable things? They both do damage, they both have stuns, they both affect multiple targets. Consulars also knockback because range is one of their first, earliest, best defenses. Knights dont knockback because they need to stay in melee range to do damage.

 

Yet later when they do get a force push, it does damage as well. Its single target. Do you really think they attached damage to it, so you could see if it worked or not? It is obvious if it worked if the target is knocked back...lol. Do you think they attached damage to force slow so you could see if your target is slowed??? See how stupid that sounds?

 

lol, well played on the sig, I like Eit...lol

Edited February 1, 2012 by Dyvim

[TheNeox]

You failed.

[Dyvim]

You failed.

 

Great response. Like I said, logically I believe in order to knock someone back you have to hit them with something, when you HIT them with something you damage them. I can understand how a consistent argument would puzzle you...lol

 

Still no response about the problems with your idea? What happened to bringing ideas and debating them? Where does the rock come from? Is it another magic rock? How do you know which finger snapping sage just attacked you? No answers?

Edited February 1, 2012 by Dyvim

[TheNeox]

Where does the rock come from?

 

Im sorry.

 

I dont really see the point in discussing gamemechanics with you.

To talk to someone that doesent unterstand the simplest implimentation of mechanics and game balancing is useless. You are consistant. Consistantly stupid.

 

Yes, you do have a few questions about my "idea". But im not going to bother answering any of them after reading this: "where does the rocks come from?"...

 

My hat is off to you sir. You made me belive i was actually going to get something usefull out of this thread.

 

Im going away now. To a galaxy far far away. And so should you. To a galaxy far far away in the other direction.

Edited February 1, 2012 by TheNeox