Request to Change Project and Throw, with suggestions and examples…

[Nimfu]

Which is why you get away from throwing junk and debris as the basis for the ranged skills of the class in the first place. Hence the whole purpose of the thread. People asking to throw better junk are understandable, but at the end of the day, the class will still be based on throwing junk.

 

Throw worked in the earlier jedi games because the objects were actually designed as part of the levels. They were already in the environment...oh yeah, and it worked because it was a darkside skill, which fits with the lore. No one would ever say "Sith dont throw things alot". Ever. This game cant/doesnt have objects as part of the level design, so they have to cheat with the animations. And they went and based the whole jedi caster class on them. I could stomache it if they were something other than the bedrock abilitites of the class. Something that you didnt use everytime, all the time. But truly they define the class. And that is why alot of people go "yuk".

 

 

I see this come up a lot in these types of threads, "...a darkside skill..." , and you know whats funny? Someone playing a jedi that chooses all of the darkside options in game. Breaking lore? Jedi can and often do turn to the darkside; queue token Vader example.

 

TK has abilities that dont require you to "spam" project or throw, especially in pvp. In fact...in the whole TK tree there is only 1 talent that even mentions project or throw..and thats psychic projection, which only mentions project in name...and it makes throw work in half the speed....which means thats half the time you even have to look at the ability, on a 10 sec cooldown.

 

 

On a personal note and opinion about the topic though; as ive mentioned before and in other threads, project just needs a better behavior set for its projectiles so that you arnt projecting objects that arnt in the environment, which makes sense. And throw should be more in line with project, animation wise, just like the sorcerer versions. Channeling project-like objects would be in order, because the pebble spam is conflicting with the relation between the two abilities. It also really does just look silly from an aesthetic level, with it conjuring tiny rocks out of thin air (as opposed to project pulling the objects from the ground..which is a thousand fold more realistic) and "shooting them" inside a wind tunnel.

[KTheAlchemist]

Which is why you get away from throwing junk and debris as the basis for the ranged skills of the class in the first place. Hence the whole purpose of the thread. People asking to throw better junk are understandable, but at the end of the day, the class will still be based on throwing junk.

 

Throw worked in the earlier jedi games because the objects were actually designed as part of the levels. They were already in the environment...oh yeah, and it worked because it was a darkside skill, which fits with the lore. No one would ever say "Sith dont throw things alot". Ever. This game cant/doesnt have objects as part of the level design, so they have to cheat with the animations. And they went and based the whole jedi caster class on them. I could stomache it if they were something other than the bedrock abilitites of the class. Something that you didnt use everytime, all the time. But truly they define the class. And that is why alot of people go "yuk".

 

Again, you seem really intensely focused on the Jedi Knight series of games...something which I appreciate your fandom of but in the grand scheme of things are both a relatively small part of the lore and relatively low on the canon scale. Games frequently make decisions based on balance issues when it comes to "questionable" abilities...force throw being one in that, obviously, it's debatable and not as cut-and-dried as things like lightning and choke.

 

I've been chewing over this with some other friends who are also lorefans and we can't come up with one confirmed movie or written reference that confirms Force Throw as a dark-sided ability. There's examples in movies, television, and in literature of it being used by both sides. There's some argument in the direction of "well, the most movie reference are by dark side users", but this is all merely observations that can have multiple interpretations.

 

If you want to say that you just don't like them, that's fine...if you want to say that you just don't like the idea of Light Side Jedi using it, that's fine. If you want to say that you don't think there's a better way to create mirrored equity across the Republic/Empire lines, also fine. But trying to claim there's some canon authority backing this up is where it starts to fall apart...your "This is Dark-Sided" theory seems to come from a singular game series that probably did it for balance issues, and your personal interpretations of movie events that could have multiple interpretations. I mean, to be honest, there's a lot of things in the movies that just don't make sense without supplemental materials or multiple interpretations of the events.

 

And I mean, all of this is fun to discuss, and it's cool that we can have different viewpoints on it. I think, though the final point remains outside our viewpoints: There's a lot of room for interpretation in this bit of lore. As such there's probably enough room for Bioware to interpret it the way that they have.

 

I do see a lot of other objections here aside from your own, but the others seem to be based on two things:

 

1. They don't feel it's "cool" enough, and the ripping of completely randomized objects is goofy. Cool is subjective, but I'll give them the randomized thing.

 

2. They don't like the delay it causes. This 100% does need to be addressed, but across the entire system and it's handling of animations and damage, not just this ability.

Edited January 25, 2012 by KTheAlchemist

[Ohoni]

Which is why you get away from throwing junk and debris as the basis for the ranged skills of the class in the first place. Hence the whole purpose of the thread. People asking to throw better junk are understandable, but at the end of the day, the class will still be based on throwing junk.

 

But the "throwing junk" abilities are the best feature the class has! The "blue wave" force powers are super boring and generic.

[Dyvim]

But the "throwing junk" abilities are the best feature the class has! The "blue wave" force powers are super boring and generic.

 

Opinions vary, but I dont think people that saw Satele wreck Malgus with those kind of force kinetic /energy ranged attacks said "oh, that generic blue stuff is boring". Also, right now the class doesnt feel like jedi...shaman, maybe. I mean, when I run around with kinetic ward up, circled by rocks...comeon. Its so sad its laughable. There are alot better "Force Armor" options out there...just like there are alot better animations than junk throwing.

 

I can absolutely, honestly say after viewing each of the 6 movies, I never, once, thought off jedi as junk throwers or debris hurlers...and certainly would have NEVER entertained the idea of basing all their ranged attacks and casting on junk/debris. Its just nonsensical. Its like they didnt even watch the movies....

Edited January 25, 2012 by Dyvim

[KTheAlchemist]

Opinions vary, but I dont think people that saw Satele wreck Malgus with those kind of force kinetic /energy ranged attacks said "oh, that generic blue stuff is boring". Also, right now the class doesnt feel like jedi...shaman, maybe. I mean, when I run around with kinetic ward up, circled by rocks...comeon. Its so sad its laughable. There are alot better "Force Armor" options out there...just like there are alot better animations than junk throwing.

 

I can absolutely, honestly say after viewing each of the 6 movies, I never, once, thought off jedi as junk throwers or debris hurlers...and certainly would have NEVER entertained the idea of basing all their ranged attacks and casting on junk/debris. Its just nonsensical. Its like they didnt even watch the movies....

 

Tell me where in the movies the Jedi have any other sort of ranged attack. Force push is a whole other animal and consulars already have that covered. I can't think of any ranged attacks displayed of any other kind. In terms of "Jedi Ranged Attack", we have "small representation in the movies, lots of representation elsewhere", and "no representation in the movies whatsoever".

 

As for Satele's trick...yes, very cool. However it's already represented in a Sage ability that, honestly, even in and of itself doesn't do Satele's force ultra-push justice. And isn't even a push, which is what her attack was...not a ranged attack. It was just a very very intense force push. And yes, I know, she used a double-bladed saber and so should technically be a Shadow but don't even get me started on all the things they did in the cinematics that have nothing close to representation in the game.

 

You also really need to stop discounting all of the EU that you don't have a personal fandom for.

Edited January 25, 2012 by KTheAlchemist

[Ohoni]

Opinions vary, but I dont think people that saw Satele wreck Malgus with those kind of force kinetic /energy ranged attacks said "oh, that generic blue stuff is boring".

 

I did, if I wanted Dragon Ball Online, there's a game for that, I wanted Star Wars, and Star Wars doesn't have "force projectiles", they either slam people with objects or pick them up and throw them, they don't slap people around with glowy blue fields. Besides, those abilities are in the game, they just aren't the only abilities available.

 

I can absolutely, honestly say after viewing each of the 6 movies, I never, once, thought off jedi as junk throwers or debris hurlers...and certainly would have NEVER entertained the idea of basing all their ranged attacks and casting on junk/debris. Its just nonsensical. Its like they didnt even watch the movies....

 

Seriously?

 

 

Classic Project. I know he's technically a sith, but the ability is available to both sides logically.

 

At 4:38.

 

You can find more, I'm sure.

[playatest]

i like delayed animation of project cause it helps create nice damage spike in pair with force breach, and u have time to activate force potency + adrenal + relic during animation, so it is not so bad as it seems to be

[KTheAlchemist]

I did, if I wanted Dragon Ball Online, there's a game for that, I wanted Star Wars, and Star Wars doesn't have "force projectiles", they either slam people with objects or pick them up and throw them, they don't slap people around with glowy blue fields. Besides, those abilities are in the game, they just aren't the only abilities available.

 

 

 

Seriously?

 

 

Classic Project. I know he's technically a sith, but the ability is available to both sides logically.

 

At 4:38.

 

You can find more, I'm sure.

 

His point was rather that he believes it's dark-sided and sith only and not "Jedi" in that sense, so the first example doesn't really say much. Your second example, however, shows the other side, a Jedi know for staying in the Light even in situations where many others failed using incredible feats of telekinesis, including ripping robots apart and then force throwing the parts of the broken robots to tear other robots to shreds.

 

That was such a great series.

Edited January 25, 2012 by KTheAlchemist

[Ohoni]

His point was rather that he believes it's dark-sided and sith only and not "Jedi" in that sense, so the first example doesn't really say much.

 

How is chucking objects at people "dark side"? What's "evil" about throwing stuff around? Lightning I get, sort of, but not throwing stuff. I just see that as a neutral move, like saber throw, or Force Speed, or just using a saber at all. If we need other examples, Yoda used TK to pick up Luke's X-Wing, and also to smash a star cruiser into the ground during the Clone Wars series.

[Dyvim]

I did, if I wanted Dragon Ball Online, there's a game for that, I wanted Star Wars, and Star Wars doesn't have "force projectiles", they either slam people with objects or pick them up and throw them, they don't slap people around with glowy blue fields. Besides, those abilities are in the game, they just aren't the only abilities available.

 

 

 

Seriously?

 

 

Classic Project. I know he's technically a sith, but the ability is available to both sides logically.

 

At 4:38.

 

You can find more, I'm sure.

 

LOL, yes its star wars, and in star wars, jedi arent junk tossers. Their skills arent based on it, and they arent defined by it. But in this game, consulars ARE. So please, dont try to claim that junk throwing makes this star wars, when the consular class looks/feels more like a shaman, atm.

 

LOL, yes vader threw junk...that was the WHOLE basis for the jedi games classifying throw as a sith/darkside skill. That has been one of my main points, repeatedly...in the movies, EVERY SITH throws debris at a target. Jedi typically do not. Or rarely do. However you want to phrase it. Vader throwing things at Luke was a clear contrast, or perversion of the force, contrasted with the training we just saw Luke go through with Yoda. Yoda had Luke levitate rocks to feel the force, NO WHERE did Yoda then go, yeah NOW we will practice throwing these rocks at targets. No where, in any of the movies, which are full of jedi being trained and taught about the force, do we have any such instruction.

 

Funny you should put that Mace clip up...I loved that series. I also mentioned it WAY back on page 17 (17 for me at least)...

 

... Mace did some really amazing things in the original clone wars cartoon as well....

 

That whole series was a bit over the top however, if not conceptually brilliant.

Edited January 25, 2012 by Dyvim

[Dyvim]

How is chucking objects at people "dark side"? What's "evil" about throwing stuff around? Lightning I get, sort of, but not throwing stuff. I just see that as a neutral move, like saber throw, or Force Speed, or just using a saber at all. If we need other examples, Yoda used TK to pick up Luke's X-Wing, and also to smash a star cruiser into the ground during the Clone Wars series.

 

Throwing things is a classic, temper tantrum, mad ex-girlfriend, kind of move. It is inherently aggressive, and has been classified as a darkside ability ever since ESB in multiple other sources/games. Every Sith does it in the movies. Its a signature skill. Especially with dooku and palpitane.

 

Did Yoda pickup the Xwing and throw it at something? No. So that really isnt a good example. Yoda taught Luke to levitate objects, NOT throw them. Thats what made the subsequent fight with Vader contrast so much with what Luke had been taught. It was a darkside perversion of the force, just like choke or lightning.

 

And again, when you go into the EU there is an example of just about anything, like Jedi using emerald lightning...but just like you wouldnt base the ENTIRE jedi caster skills off of shooting green lightning, b/c it is rare and atypical, you wouldnt base it off JUNK throwing either.

Edited January 25, 2012 by Dyvim

[Dyvim]

OK editing the main post with a third K.I.S.S. option for Project...

 

Switch the Project and Disturbance animations. Project, with its delay, could be PERFECTLY engineered to work with the 1.5 sec activation time that current disturbance has. And the disturbance animation could easily have its wind up speeded up to be instant.

 

That way, chunk a clunker stays in the game, for its fans. It just would not be as ubiquitous or the foundation of the classes ranged skills. And it would work better, because it is NOT an instant ani, and should have an activation timer. It takes time to rip up stuff magically from the ground. Of course I would also like to see it become environemntally aware.

 

Also, for shadows, this means that they would AT LEAST get one skill animation that would look something like what they see Satele do, and that BOTH of their basic ranged skills, project and throw, would not be based of junk/debris throwing...

 

I think it is a reasonable compromise that could be done by BW with lower effort as well. Also, the switch has been mentioned before.

Edited January 25, 2012 by Dyvim

[Skimox]

+1 to the OP. I really like your suggestions. They are well laid out and nicely presented. Well done and thank you.

[Dyvim]

My suggestion to improve the coolness factor and jedi feel of Kinetic Ward...

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=235180

[TheNeox]

I agree on the "pebblestorm" Telekenetic Throw animation being changed.

 

but i do NOT agree on changing Project.

Its a cool and unique animation.

I dont want to shoot fancy blue things.

I want to smash someones face in with a huge rock.

[KTheAlchemist]

OK editing the main post with a third K.I.S.S. option for Project...

 

Switch the Project and Disturbance animations. Project, with its delay, could be PERFECTLY engineered to work with the 1.5 sec activation time that current disturbance has. And the disturbance animation could easily have its wind up speeded up to be instant.

 

That way, chunk a clunker stays in the game, for its fans. It just would not be as ubiquitous or the foundation of the classes ranged skills. And it would work better, because it is NOT an instant ani, and should have an activation timer. It takes time to rip up stuff magically from the ground. Of course I would also like to see it become environemntally aware.

 

Also, for shadows, this means that they would AT LEAST get one skill animation that would look something like what they see Satele do, and that BOTH of their basic ranged skills, project and throw, would not be based of junk/debris throwing...

 

I think it is a reasonable compromise that could be done by BW with lower effort as well. Also, the switch has been mentioned before.

 

 

This is only a compromise if someone both likes Project, and is a Sage. Shadows do not get Disturbance. It completely eradicates the ability from Shadows which, I suspect, is really only what you wanted in the first place.

 

Let me just toss out how many abilities I use in the average combat as a Balance Shadow, and what they do visually:

 

Saber Strike: 3 quick hits with the lightsaber. Used frequently.

 

Double Strike: Used when more damaging abilities are on cooldown but Force is still plentiful.

 

Force Breach: breaking energy graphic that's mostly a conceptual visualization. These are based on shatterpoints, more on that in the lore. Used frequently.

 

Force In Balance: Energy wave over a circular area of effect. Used every cooldown.

 

Mind Crush: Glowing 'chamber' of the ability, followed by a palm strike into empty air. Enemy takes damage and a short but potent D.O.T. Used on the pull, and whenever a certain talent procs.

 

Force Stun: Hand wave reminiscent of jedi mind trick. Enemy takes some damage and is stunned.

 

Project: By now, we all know what this does in this thread.

 

And that's pretty much it. I almost never use telekinetic throw unless I'm really hurting for health which doesn't happen very often as DPS.

 

So in the average combat I use:

 

6 abilities based on either lightsaber attacks, glowing force energy, or invisible use of the force. Most often, it's the latter, saber attacks are mostly filler/fallback.

 

1 ability based on telekinesis.

 

At least for a balance tree Shadow, you seem to be seriously overplaying the importance of Project's role. Maybe it's possible that because it offends your sensibilities for a Jedi so you notice it more often when it happens, or maybe other specs use it far more? I don't know.

 

Either way, for me, Project is the only ability that I use with any frequency that has visual punch / kinetic feel to it. To make it yet another glowy energy thing feels wrong and more importantly, boring. I'd stop feeling like I was playing a force user and feel like I'm playing a WoW arcane mage with a really short range and a lightsaber.

 

EDIT: If you really want a force projectile, suggest it get added to Mind Crush. With the chambering the character does before cast it would look rather similar to Satele's thing.

Edited January 26, 2012 by KTheAlchemist

[Exoteis]

Totally agree with OP

[Nimfu]

Opinions vary, but I dont think people that saw Satele wreck Malgus with those kind of force kinetic /energy ranged attacks said "oh, that generic blue stuff is boring". Also, right now the class doesnt feel like jedi...shaman, maybe. I mean, when I run around with kinetic ward up, circled by rocks...comeon. Its so sad its laughable. There are alot better "Force Armor" options out there...just like there are alot better animations than junk throwing.

 

I can absolutely, honestly say after viewing each of the 6 movies, I never, once, thought off jedi as junk throwers or debris hurlers...and certainly would have NEVER entertained the idea of basing all their ranged attacks and casting on junk/debris. Its just nonsensical. Its like they didnt even watch the movies....

 

Actually...i found the Satele vs Malgus encounter rather bland and typical of "We has powers" cinematics. The only parts of it where i actually enjoyed the choreography were the acrobatics and the part at the end where the rock behind Malgus was damaged. Things like that show actual power and control, where as throwing lightning or small force waves just looks like the person is doing it behind a green screen and someone edited in the graphics at a later point, like a lot of really cheesy sci fi movies.

 

This is the main reason i love project...yet hate throw, because project actually animates as though there is a physical interaction between the jedi...the terrain..and the opponent, where as throw just looks like someones pointing at the enemy and someone added a flamboyant CG at a later time that doesnt mesh at all with the scenario.

 

I dont really care for force lightning either....as it feels and looks very cheesy...both in game and on the big screen, and thats because the physics behind electricity never apply to any of the surroundings and targets...like its a cheesy CG.

 

But at least force lightning in the game fits with the classes...in both the "project" and "throw" versions, where as the jedi have to deal with a project that breaks the 4th wall when it comes to projectiles used, and throw which doesnt even make sense aesthetically nor meshes with its counterpart, project.

[GregMD]

I like project's animation, the animation should stay the same but the damage should be applied instantly like the sorc version of it. I like the idea of telekinetic throw too, they just need to make it look more dangerous. The tiny little pebbles don't exactly look threatening, if they changed it to bigger and sharper looking rocks I would be satisfied.

[Dyvim]

This is only a compromise if someone both likes Project, and is a Sage. Shadows do not get Disturbance. It completely eradicates the ability from Shadows which, I suspect, is really only what you wanted in the first place.

 

Let me just toss out how many abilities I use in the average combat as a Balance Shadow, and what they do visually:

 

Saber Strike: 3 quick hits with the lightsaber. Used frequently.

 

Double Strike: Used when more damaging abilities are on cooldown but Force is still plentiful.

 

Force Breach: breaking energy graphic that's mostly a conceptual visualization. These are based on shatterpoints, more on that in the lore. Used frequently.

 

Force In Balance: Energy wave over a circular area of effect. Used every cooldown.

 

Mind Crush: Glowing 'chamber' of the ability, followed by a palm strike into empty air. Enemy takes damage and a short but potent D.O.T. Used on the pull, and whenever a certain talent procs.

 

Force Stun: Hand wave reminiscent of jedi mind trick. Enemy takes some damage and is stunned.

 

Project: By now, we all know what this does in this thread.

 

And that's pretty much it. I almost never use telekinetic throw unless I'm really hurting for health which doesn't happen very often as DPS.

 

So in the average combat I use:

 

6 abilities based on either lightsaber attacks, glowing force energy, or invisible use of the force. Most often, it's the latter, saber attacks are mostly filler/fallback.

 

1 ability based on telekinesis.

 

At least for a balance tree Shadow, you seem to be seriously overplaying the importance of Project's role. Maybe it's possible that because it offends your sensibilities for a Jedi so you notice it more often when it happens, or maybe other specs use it far more? I don't know.

 

Either way, for me, Project is the only ability that I use with any frequency that has visual punch / kinetic feel to it. To make it yet another glowy energy thing feels wrong and more importantly, boring. I'd stop feeling like I was playing a force user and feel like I'm playing a WoW arcane mage with a really short range and a lightsaber.

 

EDIT: If you really want a force projectile, suggest it get added to Mind Crush. With the chambering the character does before cast it would look rather similar to Satele's thing.

 

As a shadow, project is impacted by multiple talents, and is fundamental to the class, just like for sage. You are right, and as I have said, shadows dont get disturbance, so they have NOTHING that even remotely looks like what Satele did in the Hope trailer. I can throw rocks, be encircled by rocks, and throw alot of smaller rocks. But a genuine, force ranged attack that looks like the epic move for the hero type of the class? Nope, sorry, SOL.

 

If your goal is to get away from junk throwing and get to something more jedi feeling and more cool, then, project is the first, best place to start. Rocks are about as exciting as, well rocks. What is about as exciting as rocks? Junk. For you to actually post that they provide you excitement is, well, sad, and a damning commentary on the rest of the class as well.

 

Look at the talents...particle acceleration, bombardment, harnessed shadows, upheaval, twin disciplines, circling shadows, deep impact AND clairvoyant strike ALL BUFF OR EFFECT PROJECT. And you wonder why it is the logical place to add coolness and de-shaman the class? You cant fix it...it takes time to pull up crap out of the ground and then throw it and impact the target...it would be even MORE ridiculous to have damage numbers fly over your target and for them to take damage before the crap animation even hits them. The animation obviously is not suitable for an instant skill. I have specifically addressed this in my proposals. That is why, IF you want to keep it, it should be switched with disturbance and its activation timer, where at least it will make a modicum of sense, mechanics wise, even if it is still junk throwing.

 

The only thing exciting about project is seeing which piece of crap is going to pop up, and seeing just how ridiculous or inappropriate it is going to look in the current environment...and on excitement scales, that isnt so much.

 

There are reasons why SITH>Republic on every server. There is a coolness gap. For me and alot of people in this thread and all the way through beta, no where is the coolness gap more evident than with the consular classes. On top of that it doesnt feel like jedi or represent jedi very well to a lot of people. So in the end we can argue about appearance, feel and our impressions all day long. But the statistics dont lie and the feedback is there and HAS BEEN at least ever since I started reading it on the beta boards last summer.

Edited January 26, 2012 by Dyvim

[KTheAlchemist]

As a shadow, project is impacted by multiple talents, and is fundamental to the class, just like for sage. You are right, and as I have said, shadows dont get disturbance, so they have NOTHING that even remotely looks like what Satele did in the Hope trailer. I can throw rocks, be encircled by rocks, and throw alot of smaller rocks. But a genuine, force ranged attack that looks like the epic move for the hero type of the class? Nope, sorry, SOL.

 

If your goal is to get away from junk throwing and get to something more jedi feeling and more cool, then, project is the first, best place to start. Rocks are about as exciting as, well rocks. What is about as exciting as rocks? Junk. For you to actually post that they provide you excitement is, well, sad, and a damning commentary on the rest of the class as well.

 

All I can say about this part is, there is no accounting for taste. I find the ability to be exciting, many others in this thread have voiced a similar opinion. The only really improvement that I feel could be done to the "cool" factor is to make them context sensitive and pull up things appropriate to the local environment. Moving on.

 

 

Look at the talents...particle acceleration, bombardment, harnessed shadows, upheaval, twin disciplines, circling shadows, deep impact AND clairvoyant strike ALL BUFF OR EFFECT PROJECT.

 

You just compiled the talents from three different trees. If they were all in one tree, we could say that there's a heavy focus in that tree. If each tree had that many, we could say there's a heavy focus. As it is you're unfairly skewing your data towards the point you feel like making.

 

You just And you wonder why it is the logical place to add coolness and de-shaman the class? You cant fix it...it takes time to pull up crap out of the ground and then throw it and impact the target...it would be even MORE ridiculous to have damage numbers fly over your target and for them to take damage before the crap animation even hits them.

 

Actually no it would not be more ridiculous. It is the only way to have responsiveness in a MMO that works properly, because of the nature of what you're dealing with. Other people have done extensive threads on this...I'm not going to quote the whole thing, but I'm going to give a very summary breakdown, and I'm emphasizing this because it is VERY important to this discussion. I've kept bringing this point up, but I'm going to say -why- it needs to be handled game-wide and not just on this animation.

 

In most offline games that involve combat, when you press a button, you have an animation, and damage done. The game presents them in this fashion because it is the most logical way to present the actions to the player. As such, most offline games handle them as a single extended event. The animation plays, the animation finishes, the ability calls for damage to be done, damage is calculated and assigned. And for non-MMO's, this works.

 

Intelligent MMO developers realized that due to the nature of how an MMO works, and how the client and server handles data, that to have solid, responsive-feeling combat, they needed to instead treat a button press's results as two separate events. The playing of an animation, and the assigning of damage, and one animation can overwrite the other. This flows much better with the issues surrounding a networked online game structured the way an MMO is. It produces much more responsive combat, and even if the animations sometimes get interrupted or what have you, the gains to solid gameplay feel are enormous.

 

The floating numbers are meta-data, they're not even something that exists in the game world, they're something that exists to give you the player a better idea of progression.

 

 

The animation obviously is not suitable for an instant skill. I have specifically addressed this in my proposals. That is why, IF you want to keep it, it should be switched with disturbance and its activation timer, where at least it will make a modicum of sense, mechanics wise, even if it is still junk throwing.

 

Again, Sage abilities. Tell me how I get to keep what I feel is a visual high point of my combat experience as a Shadow.

 

The only thing exciting about project is seeing which piece of crap is going to pop up, and seeing just how ridiculous or inappropriate it is going to look in the current environment...and on excitement scales, that isnt so much.

 

This is subjective, again. What seems cool to you doesn't seem cool to someone else. To me, yet ANOTHER glowy energy ability is intensely dull. Which one of us is right? Neither. It's entirely a question of personal taste.

 

There are reasons why SITH>Republic on every server. There is a coolness gap. For me and alot of people in this thread and all the way through beta, no where is the coolness gap more evident than with the consular classes. On top of that it doesnt feel like jedi or represent jedi very well to a lot of people. So in the end we can argue about appearance, feel and our impressions all day long. But the statistics dont lie and the feedback is there and HAS BEEN at least ever since I started reading it on the beta boards last summer.

 

You're making the primal, key mistake of just about any casual examination of data with limited information and sample size. You're confusing correlation with causation. One of the first things colleges pound into the heads of both statistics and psychology students is this phrase:

 

"Correlation is not causation."

 

You observe that there are more Sith than Republic on most servers. There seems to be a decent amount of evidence to back this up. You observe that there is an ability which you perceive as not "cool". Already you're going into personal tastes while trying to draw conclusions as a population and you're already in trouble there. But then you try and tie the two together, claiming that one is causing the other. A lot of the different opinions from your own, in this thread even, suggests that is not the case.

 

This is like going to the opera, observing that a large percentage of opera-goers are wealthy, and concluding that going to the opera causes you to become wealthy.

 

You've got some good ideas, but they're starting to get lost in the rhetoric and tunnel vision.

 

Meanwhile, you still didn't address the actual point of my last post. Project is one out of seven major abilities that I use in every combat, and the only one which uses telekinesis, and yet you claim it's this huge keystone of the entire class.

Edited January 26, 2012 by KTheAlchemist

[Dyvim]

...

 

Meanwhile, you still didn't address the actual point of my last post. Project is one out of seven major abilities that I use in every combat, and the only one which uses telekinesis, and yet you claim it's this huge keystone of the entire class.

 

Nowhere did I say that those talents came from one tree. The list stands. It is long and there are few if any skills that have more talents associated with it, but Im not going to bother to do exact counts. And it makes it plain that project is going to be part of your rotation for any of the talent trees. You do use it every combat. So every melee you are chunking junk. That is pretty much my point. You have to use it in your rotations...its not optional, really, especially not for a shadow tank, which is what I am leveling atm, amongst other things. It is also as integral for sages.

 

You like it. You think it fits in with the lore, and is fine as the first ranged skill you learn, and one that is integral to the class, one that you will use throughout the life of the class. I do not. I have given the reasons, based in the movies and other lore why I dont think it should be the first learned, always used, enhanced by a butt load of talents, skill. Throwing junk/rocks defines consular in this game, just like lightning defines inquistors. To me, that is completely unacceptable. And its not just me if you go through the thread.

 

I dont think we are covering any new ground here. So I will thank you for the discussion, and if you think of anything novel, I'll be around.

[KTheAlchemist]

Nowhere did I say that those talents came from one tree. The list stands. It is long and there are few if any skills that have more talents associated with it, but Im not going to bother to do exact counts. And it makes it plain that project is going to be part of your rotation for any of the talent trees. You do use it every combat. So every melee you are chunking junk. That is pretty much my point. You have to use it in your rotations...its not optional, really, especially not for a shadow tank, which is what I am leveling atm, amongst other things. It is also as integral for sages.

 

You like it. You think it fits in with the lore, and is fine as the first ranged skill you learn, and one that is integral to the class, one that you will use throughout the life of the class. I do not. I have given the reasons, based in the movies and other lore why I dont think it should be the first learned, always used, enhanced by a butt load of talents, skill. Throwing junk/rocks defines consular in this game, just like lightning defines inquistors. To me, that is completely unacceptable. And its not just me if you go through the thread.

 

I dont think we are covering any new ground here. So I will thank you for the discussion, and if you think of anything novel, I'll be around.

 

It's still a terrible list when it breaks down to 1-2 talents per tree, out of...how many available total depending on the tree? You point them out but you leave out the proportion. They're a drop in the bucket.

 

Not optional for a optimal rotation? No, of course it's not. I could just as well complain that I have to use Force Stun on a regular basis while soloing but I think that'd be a rather silly waste of time when I have so many other abilities that I do approve of the appearance of.

 

My point also still stands. Yes, I use Project every combat. I also use Saber Strike, Double Strike, Force Breach, Force Balance, Mind Crush, Force Stun, and Whirling Blow. It's just one ability of many and the only one that uses telekinesis that gets used on a regular basis. Which really also was part of my point...it's the only ability that currently breaks the Balance tree's otherwise trend of constantly lobbing energy waves and invisible use of the force. Maybe if it bothers you that much you might try Balance. You won't get rid of it completely, though, just use it much less from the sound of it. And from the sound of it you won't settle for anything less than the ability (in its current from with its current graphics) being completely gone from Shadow's rotation.

 

Letting Sages only keep it is not a compromise.

Edited January 26, 2012 by KTheAlchemist

[Ohoni]

LOL, yes its star wars, and in star wars, jedi arent junk tossers. Their skills arent based on it, and they arent defined by it. But in this game, consulars ARE. So please, dont try to claim that junk throwing makes this star wars, when the consular class looks/feels more like a shaman, atm.

 

My point is, "junk tossing" is far more Jedi than "blue fireball tossing" is. If there is going to be a projectile Jedi class, "junk tossing" is as "Star Wars" as it gets.

 

LOL, yes vader threw junk...that was the WHOLE basis for the jedi games classifying throw as a sith/darkside skill. That has been one of my main points, repeatedly...in the movies, EVERY SITH throws debris at a target. Jedi typically do not. Or rarely do. However you want to phrase it. Vader throwing things at Luke was a clear contrast, or perversion of the force, contrasted with the training we just saw Luke go through with Yoda. Yoda had Luke levitate rocks to feel the force, NO WHERE did Yoda then go, yeah NOW we will practice throwing these rocks at targets. No where, in any of the movies, which are full of jedi being trained and taught about the force, do we have any such instruction.

 

So basically you're arguing that there shouldn't even be a Jedi counterpart to the Inquisitor? That there shouldn't be a Jedi ranged class at all? I can't agree with that. Any argument to be made about "chucking objects" not being something that is "proper" for a Jedi to do would apply double for Hadokens.

 

Also, just in a general sense, I like that Project is a "delayed instant." Since you're summoning a force outside of yourself, it can hit while you're doing something else, so that by the time your object impacts the target, you can already be hitting them with TK Throw, or running towards them, or charging up one of your other attacks. This makes it seem like you're attacking much faster and more fluidly.

[tufy]

Dyvim, this whole thread is based around your opinion that Inquisitor animations are better. As someone who plays both classes, I can tell you my opinion that they're not. Inquisitor has lightning cast, lightning channel, lightning CC, lightning stun, lightning instant, lightning AoE, lightning shield, hell, even their "techniques" are lightning effects on their lightsabers. At the end of the day, you can only have so much lightning before it gets boring. Meanwhile, as a Consular, I'll have rocks, stones, droids, energy waves, even "plain" techniques, giving you a remarkably cool variation and an impression of a character who simply uses whatever he has available at the time.

 

It's true, Project isn't perfect (though one could argue if it or Shock is actually the more potent ability, given that Project can be combined with other skills to unleash a massive burst, whereas Shock is a more traditional "noob friendly" instant), but it's also not as bad as you make it be and is one of in my opinion coolest abilities art-wise in game. No, not just between Inquisitors and Consulars, but actually in the entire game (except perhaps for the Bounty Hunter's Flame Sweep and even then, it's a tough call).

 

Let's take a step back and look at just Upheaval from a purely cosmetic point of view. That talent gives you the chance to cast another projectile of the same kind at the target for extra damage. How does this look for Shock? You cast it and you shock the target twice, that's it. How would that look for your "Disturbance" effect? You cast it and hit the target twice, that's it. And how does it look with Project? You lift one rock with one hand, the other rock with the other hand and throw them, which looks insanely cool and powerful.

 

The problem with your "swap Disturbance and Project graphics" ideas is that Disturbance is only really used by a Telekinetic Sage and in low healing periods by Seers. Meanwhile, Balance Sages, which have their main abilities centered around "Pebble Throw", would have no use for it, but would instead have an instant energy field. Given that your declared purpose for this thread was "having a similar theme", you'd either have to replace TK Throw as well (we'll get to that) or your suggestion will already have failed.

 

Verdict: Project should remain as it is and steps should be taken to make it and Shock functionally equal. I'd actually prefer Shock to be brought in line with Project's functionality, as it is simply more handy for an experienced player, but ultimately it's the devs' call.

 

Now, for the Throw. You use Satele's second attack as a proof that Shadows should have a Telekinetic Wave-type attack. While I do not necessarily disagree with your assessment, I will point out the fact that Satele's first attack was a form of Force Push, the kind of ability that neither Sages nor Shadows possess. It stands to reason that Satele is not "just" a Shadow (after all, she stops a lightsaber with her bare hands, something you and I can't do either animation-wise), but something more. I know Bioware mentioned a while ago that cinematics represent real in-game skills, but one has to expect that they'll use meshes of different abilities to show different functionalities. Take for instance Gunslinger in Return - does he ever hide behind cover? What about Satele's master, how can he possibly wield a dual-bladed saber in his offhand? And did you notice he used Project on Malgus? Or the trooper in Hope - he wants to attack Malgus with a knife after using an Assault Cannon for the first part of the trailer, even though Gut is a Tactics Vanguard ability, where Vanguards cannot use Assault Cannons. In short - don't take cinematics too seriously, they're ment to showcase the classes in general, within the limits of artistic expression.

 

LOL, yes vader threw junk...that was the WHOLE basis for the jedi games classifying throw as a sith/darkside skill. That has been one of my main points, repeatedly...in the movies, EVERY SITH throws debris at a target. Jedi typically do not. Or rarely do. However you want to phrase it. Vader throwing things at Luke was a clear contrast, or perversion of the force, contrasted with the training we just saw Luke go through with Yoda. Yoda had Luke levitate rocks to feel the force, NO WHERE did Yoda then go, yeah NOW we will practice throwing these rocks at targets. No where, in any of the movies, which are full of jedi being trained and taught about the force, do we have any such instruction.

 

That is actually not correct, as Saber Throw, Force Push and Force Pull are all variants of telekinetic manipulation and we see all three used quite extensively in all six movies.

 

It should be noted, of course, that the Jedi philosophy explicitly states that offensive combat is the very last resort and should not be used unless absolutely necessary, whereas the Sith philosophy promotes violence and is much more prone to offensive action. Joda's first words therefore won't be "use this rock to smash your enemy's skull", but "you shouldn't use this rock against your enemy". That doesn't mean the Jedi aren't capable of it, they just don't use it in that way most of the time. Remember, though, that the Jedi are trained from young age to deal with aggression and on a few occasions, we see even Masters of the Order go on attack with pretty much the same effectiveness as any Sith. Thus, anyone who would be capable of Force Lift, Force Push or Saber Throw should be able to do Project as well - Sith OR Jedi.

Edited January 26, 2012 by tufy