Same gender relationships clarifications?

[MusedMoose]

Thank you both for staking out that ground for the "straight, not narrow" crowd.

 

It's a useful reminder that lots of people who may not miss this content if it isn't implemented honestly won't care if it is.

Just adding my voice as another "straight but not narrow" guy, it's good to know there's plenty of us here. I will say that I'll miss this content if it's not implemented, which makes me glad that BW has said it will be. I really, really don't want my JK to be thinking "FOREVER ALONE" every time Kira makes a cute quip.

 

Honestly, the thing that confuses me the most is the people who say "I don't want it so it shouldn't be implemented!!"

If you don't want it ... you don't have to get it. But plenty of people are getting things they don't want, IE heteromance, and they aren't trying to have that removed or blocked. Why? They can just ... not click it. Very simple. You can also not click things that don't apply to you.

I think the issue with some gamers is the idea that if it's in the game, they have to do it. I've seen people complaining about how they want to leave one planet or another, but they can't because of the bonus quests. Refusing a quest doesn't seem to cross their mind, so they might think that a [Flirt] option means they have to click it.

 

Someone above mentioned the idea of an all-classes companion that would have the SGR option (assuming I'm remembering right). I just want to say that I really hope that's not the way BW goes about doing SGRs. Something like that just seems like the gratuitous/obligatory homosexual option, and to me, it would feel like the characters were merely thrown in as tokens. I still think making our current companions SGR-available would be the much better option.

[LyriaFrost]

@LyriaFrost - It makes me twitch as a writer, because that's a detail I wouldn't just put in a story without sufficent follow up and/or closure.

 

Well, very few of the stories really have any sort of "closure." A lot of it is left up to the player to imagine, to put the RP in RPG. Leaving things vague allows for players to insert their own ideas into what happens. Like I said, I've envisioned my agent doing all sorts of things that the game doesn't show me. I kind of write my own closure into things, when it isn't resolved in-game.

 

 

For instance, the scene on Taris in act-2 where Chance orders you via the command implant to come "save" him. My agent (who's also an operative, btw) had been flirting with him every chance I got, since he seemed to be kind of iffy about the SIS using me like they were. I thought the opportunity might come up to use my wiles to get him onto my side, however briefly, to have him help me overcome the programming. But when he used it himself, I lost ALL willingness to have him on my side anymore. He was just another SIS a-hole who was using me.

 

So when I showed up, and he couldn't manage to say the command code, I let him die, rather than saving him. Now, in-game, that's the end of it. You just walk away. However, to ME, my agent had a nice little 'chat' with him, about what a douche he was being, and how she was already coming to help him. But now? No.

 

"You see, Chance, I could save you. I truly could. I have both the gear and the training to get you out of here, and evac you to medical treatment. But you showed me what sort of person you are. When faced with difficulty, you take the easy way out. You FORCED me to come here. So now I'm going to kill you. But I'm not going to just let you bleed to death. That's too easy. No..."

*walks a few dozen feet away, taking aim at a pack of rakghouls*

"Do you see them, Agent Chance? This is the sound of inevitability."

*fires a shot at the rakghouls, then sprints back to where Chance is lying*

"Goodbye, Chance. I won't miss you."

*triggers her cloaking field to vanish in front of the rakghouls, who now see Chance lying there*

*Chance dies a horrible, grusome "death", and probably comes back as a rakghoul*

 

THAT, to me, is "closure". But the game doesn't allow that sort of thing to happen. So I made it up myself. But it gave me a real sense of closure for that particular scene.

 

 

Sad as it probably is for me to admit this, this sort of thing does make me get worked up. That's the sort of person I am, and so I vent. Yes, I can RP whatever I want in my headcanon for the character, but you know what? It doesn't matter how much I RP her dealing with it, she still can't deal with it the way she would have, had I been the one writing the story.

 

Well, there's the rub. How YOU would write the story would make OTHER people annoyed. No matter how it's written, SOMEONE will be annoyed by it. Hell, my "rewrite" of the ending with Chance (in the spoiler above) would probably annoy some people, though that to me would be a GREAT dark side ending for that particular scene.

 

Since everyone's preferences differ, everyone is going to see something and either like it, be neutral to it, or dislike it. There is literally no pleasing everyone. It's unfortunate, but within the confines of a game, you simply can't allow the true freedom for every possible choice that you could in a tabletop RPG. Otherwise the dialogue options would have to number in the hundreds, if not thousands, for nearly every single interaction.

 

In case this hasn't been made clear... Jan'neria is an Operative. She specializes in stealth and infiltration (and seduction, yes, and all those other things a more Agenty agent would do - sorry Snipers). She can't see these writings because she isn't Voss? Fine. She'll get in there and read them anyway. No one can keep her out. That's her speciality.

 

 

It doesn't matter how much I RP stuff in my head -

the game still has her flagged as married to the guy

and if Bioware want to do something with it in the future when in my canon it's already been dealt with? Immersion. Shattered. My own canon invalidated.

 

My agent is an operative too. By all rights, there are things I SHOULD be able to do, without all the hoops to jump through as part of the story. But then, if I could just stealth my way in anywhere, one-shot-assassinate anyone I needed to, and get whatever I wanted and slip out undetected, it would make for a pretty short/dull story.

 

And you're not "flagged". The only instance that it will ever be mentioned is on that one planet, and the mail you get as a followup. People won't start calling you "Mrs. <whatever>", your companions won't constantly be talking about how you're married, etc etc. You're only as "flagged" as you ALLOW yourself to be flagged.

 

Again, what you're doing is writing YOURSELF into a corner. By saying "my character would never ever ever ever ever ever EVER do this", you're writing yourself out of the story. Would you character ever FAKE it? Does your character NEVER lie? Ever? I could claim my agent never touches a drop of alcohol, but if a cutscene showed her having a drink, would I go "OMG, they violated my personal canon!!!"? Nope. I'd just say "Ah, well, she faked drinking it to fool them!" or "She slipped a de-alcoholizer into it first!"

 

In a story written by someone else, you have to be flexible with your personal canon. You have to be able to adjust things on the fly, or even (gasp) allow yourself to change things, or RP that for that one moment, they had an instant of weakness, or whatever else.

 

This is what bothers me about this in between state we're currently in with regard to SGRA. You can have your Kaliyo and your Agent do whatever they want in you canon, until Bioware puts something in the game that directly contradicts that. Which is something they couldn't/wouldn't do with the current canon OGRA companion stories.

 

If they put something into it that contradicts the ideas I have in my head, I'll adjust them accordingly. If they say "your agent and Kaliyo never got naughty with one another"? Sure. That they REMEMBER. A few too many drinks one night to try and wind down from one of the many "holy crap we survived that" missions they've been on, and who knows! See, personal canon adjusted. Pretty easy.

 

The problem with trying to write absolutes into your character is that doing so is writing yourself into a corner. Unless it's something EXTREMELY specific ("my agent never eats salad with a gold-plated fork in her left hand", for instance), things will most likely crop up that will nudge up against (or just smash through) your own personal canon. Your personal canon MUST be flexible enough to accommodate a wide variety of situations. Especially when it comes to major things, such as sexuality -- the agent character is described in like your very first scene as a "master of seduction". While she may be a die-hard lesbian in her head, she should be good enough to at least FAKE being straight/bi when the mission calls for it. Right?

 

Like I said, it all comes down to RP. Just make up your own closure, your own ending, fill in the gaps with your imagination. Hell, pretend that between your leaving Voss and getting that letter, you had a long chat with your "faux" hubby and told him all about it, how it was just a job, that you didn't mean to make him fall for you, etc. Let him down gently. Then his "I still miss you" letter becomes that much more poignant. Some nice RP-fodder there.

 

(holy spit this was a long post)

Edited February 16, 2012 by LyriaFrost

[sprysentinel]

After reading over the arguments and opinions in this thread, I felt compelled to add my own.

 

The whole idea of a toggle switch to turn off hetero/**** experiences in the game as well as to customize the game and NPC interactions completely turns me off. The world doesn't customize itself to fit my sexuality in reality and I am forced to deal with people of all sexualities, beliefs and haircuts everyday, TOR should be like this. I should be able to flirt with people of both genders regardless of my sexuality but these flirts should not always be warmly welcomed. In reality I flirt with people of both genders every day to get things that I want but I am not attracted to both genders. As for the whole toggling off different sexualities just seems ridiculous to me. I do understand people have their issues with homosexuality but a toggle-off option is just a bit much to expect from BW. If you don't want to engage in the hetero/**** content then don't. If you have kids and you don't want them to see this content, are you aware your children can choose to kill people or have inter-species relationships?

 

Now for the whole companion thing. From how I have interpreted BW discussion about including same gender romance with companions, it will not be possible with existing characters but rather with new characters. I completely agree with this approach (if this is the approach they will use) and I personally don't mind waiting for them to create GOOD glbt companions for us. I don't want the same choices that already exist reset for my glbt character, I want someone new and specifically created for me. While some of the existing companions would make amazing same gender romance options *cough*Corso*cough*, they are straight. In a related note, since I'm ranting about what I'd love to see happen, I want new companions for each class opposed to two generic (gay male + gay female) companions per fractions that's I'm sure will happen. AND I would love for the gay males not to be the generic effeminate gay males.

 

So yeah, in summery, I'd love the option to flirt with anyone and get mixed responses and have a new glbt characters added instead of retooling the existing ones.

 

Anyways, just my two cents on the matter, thanks for the chance to vent.

[Kioma]

(holy spit this was a long post)

 

I think we're also seriously wavering from topic (and there's un-tagged spoilers flying around like mad).

 

It IS a shame, though, that these matters aren't resolvable in a mechanical sense, and our characters are just sort of... left hanging (or just left to ignore what's happened), but there's not a lot we can do about it but RP it out in our own heads.

 

Still, back to same sex relations - I wonder if they'd add same-sex relations for specific species (like the Voss, which is an entirely Bioware invention).

[MusedMoose]

Now for the whole companion thing. From how I have interpreted BW discussion about including same gender romance with companions, it will not be possible with existing characters but rather with new characters. I completely agree with this approach (if this is the approach they will use) and I personally don't mind waiting for them to create GOOD glbt companions for us. I don't want the same choices that already exist reset for my glbt character, I want someone new and specifically created for me. While some of the existing companions would make amazing same gender romance options *cough*Corso*cough*, they are straight.

I agree with the first part of your post; good points and well said. I disagree with this part for a few reasons, though.

 

First, I don't think it's safe to assume that all of the existing companions are straight. As the game is right now, they only have the option to be straight. While we try to avoid RL discussion of sexuality in here, I think it's safe to say we all know bisexuality exists, so there's nothing to prevent companions from being bi, especially in a universe where inter-species romance doesn't seem to bother people. And since our characters are all playing through their own stories, the companions aren't necessarily the same people; my Corso might be straight since my smuggler didn't choose to pursue the relationship with him, but your smuggler's Corso might be gay or just gay for your (I'm assuming male based on what you said) smuggler. And it's all good, because one player's story doesn't affect another's like that.

 

Someone in the previous thread for this topic coined the phrase "hero-sexual", meaning that your companions will always be attracted to your character, and I think that's the best option.

 

Second, BW has not specifically said whether existing companions will become open for SGRs or not; their wording was extremely and deliberately vague. They did say they couldn't guarantee any one companion would be SGR-capable, but that doesn't confirm or deny anything either way. Many of us, myself included, hope that the existing companions are used for SGRs, as we've come to really like them and would like our characters to be able to romance them.

 

In a related note, since I'm ranting about what I'd love to see happen, I want new companions for each class opposed to two generic (gay male + gay female) companions per fractions that's I'm sure will happen. AND I would love for the gay males not to be the generic effeminate gay males.

And now I'm right back to agreeing with you. I don't think BW is going to make companions just for SGRs that any class can get; that seems like kind of a cop-out and I'm pretty sure it would take more work than adding the SGR option to existing companions. It would also prevent the stereotype issue, since the companions already have clearly-defined personalities.

[vandana_]

After reading over the arguments and opinions in this thread, I felt compelled to add my own.

 

The whole idea of a toggle switch to turn off hetero/**** experiences in the game as well as to customize the game and NPC interactions completely turns me off. The world doesn't customize itself to fit my sexuality in reality and I am forced to deal with people of all sexualities, beliefs and haircuts everyday, TOR should be like this. I should be able to flirt with people of both genders regardless of my sexuality but these flirts should not always be warmly welcomed. In reality I flirt with people of both genders every day to get things that I want but I am not attracted to both genders. As for the whole toggling off different sexualities just seems ridiculous to me. I do understand people have their issues with homosexuality but a toggle-off option is just a bit much to expect from BW. If you don't want to engage in the hetero/**** content then don't. If you have kids and you don't want them to see this content, are you aware your children can choose to kill people or have inter-species relationships?

 

Now for the whole companion thing. From how I have interpreted BW discussion about including same gender romance with companions, it will not be possible with existing characters but rather with new characters. I completely agree with this approach (if this is the approach they will use) and I personally don't mind waiting for them to create GOOD glbt companions for us. I don't want the same choices that already exist reset for my glbt character, I want someone new and specifically created for me. While some of the existing companions would make amazing same gender romance options *cough*Corso*cough*, they are straight. In a related note, since I'm ranting about what I'd love to see happen, I want new companions for each class opposed to two generic (gay male + gay female) companions per fractions that's I'm sure will happen. AND I would love for the gay males not to be the generic effeminate gay males.

 

So yeah, in summery, I'd love the option to flirt with anyone and get mixed responses and have a new glbt characters added instead of retooling the existing ones.

 

Anyways, just my two cents on the matter, thanks for the chance to vent.

 

This is the most reasonable voice I have heard in this whole discussion.

[vandana_]

Hmm. All my posts from yesterday have been removed. I can see this thread really is a discussion of some individuals "working with the forum moderators closely to keep this thread on track". Oh, the political correctness.

 

My points from yesterday - one last try:

1) Don't re-work content if it costs money

2) Implement same-sex romances options in a moderate fashion making NPCs sexual orientations proportional to our society's orientations.

Edited February 16, 2012 by vandana_

[Trolltar]

I just hope they don't do the everyone is bi thing. It just cheapens the whole thing. If orientation is going to be in the game it should close off some avenues and open others. One of the big ideas in TOR is that choices matter, mostly in the story line dialogues. I think this choice should matter too. And the everyone is bi thing is the exact opposite of that.

[stuffystuffs]

Now for the whole companion thing. From how I have interpreted BW discussion about including same gender romance with companions, it will not be possible with existing characters but rather with new characters. I completely agree with this approach (if this is the approach they will use) and I personally don't mind waiting for them to create GOOD glbt companions for us. I don't want the same choices that already exist reset for my glbt character, I want someone new and specifically created for me.

 

They won't be created specifically for SGRA as I'm sure any new romanceable companion will be open for OGRA as well (i.e., will be 'hero sexual').

 

While some of the existing companions would make amazing same gender romance options *cough*Corso*cough*, they are straight.

 

I argue that we don't know...the problem is: the PC is forced to be either straight or asexual at the moment but not necessarily the companions. No one knows how <insert companion name> would react to a same-gendered PC approaching them because the PC cannot do it.

 

When I play my Agent, I don't feel as if Kaliyo is straight...I feel as if my Agent only has the option to be straight (or nothing)....which is infinitely more frustrating than if Kaliyo told my Agent that she was straight after my Agent flirted with her.

 

 

I just hope they don't do the everyone is bi thing. It just cheapens the whole thing. If orientation is going to be in the game it should close off some avenues and open others. One of the big ideas in TOR is that choices matter, mostly in the story line dialogues. I think this choice should matter too. And the everyone is bi thing is the exact opposite of that.

 

That doesn't make any sense to me.

 

You can say...having more 'bi' companions means more choice (that matter) for those that play gay/bi PCs.

Edited February 16, 2012 by stuffystuffs

[Raiellyn]

I just hope they don't do the everyone is bi thing. It just cheapens the whole thing. If orientation is going to be in the game it should close off some avenues and open others. One of the big ideas in TOR is that choices matter, mostly in the story line dialogues. I think this choice should matter too. And the everyone is bi thing is the exact opposite of that.

 

The inherent problem there, however, is that some classes really have no choice already.

For example, Troopers.

 

Males get Dorne, and females get Catman.

There is absolutely no way to integrate s/s romance for that class without either

A) making both of them bi, allowing the player to choose which storyline is "canon" for their character, like Jaesa's light side/dark side choice. (Also, they don't have to be bi. I think of it like Schrodinger's sexuality. Until you open that box, you don't know which way they swing. Once you do by choosing a flirt, BAM. Turns out they were gay or straight, depending on your character!)

 

B) add a minimum of four new, fully fleshed-out companions. Two for Republic, and two for Empire. Two females, two males. But why would the same character join a Jedi Knight as a Trooper or Smuggler? Each class has different missions, which would require dialogue for each, not to mention having all of their affection ticks added throughout the entire game, unless they were an "only at 50" companion. And I would demand that these characters be EXCLUSIVELY homosexual. If the original companions are not shared with LGBT players, it is wholly rude to expect "our" content to be shared.

 

I would argue that A is the much simpler, more cost effective, and overall best quality choice. The new companions would not be as well-written as the previous ones, by sheer virtue of having less content involving them. It would be restrictive to the player, as I find myself swooning over Dorne, and doubt I personally would like the new character as much. Why not allow me to choose who I wish to romance, instead of sighing at my available choices?

[Nuvem]

I just hope they don't do the everyone is bi thing. It just cheapens the whole thing. If orientation is going to be in the game it should close off some avenues and open others. One of the big ideas in TOR is that choices matter, mostly in the story line dialogues. I think this choice should matter too. And the everyone is bi thing is the exact opposite of that.

 

I bet they will make everyone bi

[Avrid]

personally i don't think it would be so hard to enable the flirt options on companions that can already have romance arcs for same gender. and no i do not except the line "compaion x" is hetro only they would never be attracted to same gender. on a populated server you see many clones running around all looking the same.

 

on another note i will not be renewing my subscritpion to the game until there is more solid information about how/when sgra will be implemented. i also will not be purchasing any new bioware titles, ie mass effect 3. if bioware chooses to not give out anymore information for the implementation then i choose to not support a company that allow you to be a murderer and a racist but not allow me to choose who i love because being gay is so much worse then killing people for money.

[LyriaFrost]

I bet they will make everyone bi

 

I honestly wouldn't mind that option.

 

*eyes Mako and Vette*

 

[rvhausen]

Oh, and I do hope they allow for bisexuality. That would make things so very interesting. Edited February 16, 2012 by Paralassa

[Cythereal]

I honestly wouldn't mind that option.

 

*eyes Mako and Vette*

 

 

Mako in particular gets a lot of tension with a female PC as it is. When I played a female BH during the beta, before I knew same-sex romances weren't in the game, I thought it was pretty darn obvious that Mako and my lady BH were going to end up together. I don't think it's a stretch at all to make Mako bisexual.

[Raiellyn]

I honestly wouldn't mind that option.

 

*eyes Mako and Vette*

 

 

Dorne or bust, baby!

 

 

... Er, well... I suppose Dorne *and* bust would be more apt...

(Yes, I'm still a little kid at heart. )

[Kiralai]

I honestly wouldn't mind that option.

 

*eyes Mako and Vette*

 

 

For truth. Even as a female who identifies as straight, I would still have been very tempted to pursue some sort of a fling with Vette on my female SW. Or Jaesa for that matter; the idea of a Master and Apprentice hooking up is amusing. On second thought, it's probably a good thing I only have one real option. Were it otherwise, I would probably have ended up macking on the entirety of my crew--minus Broonmark. Sorry, Broonmark.

[LyriaFrost]

Mako in particular gets a lot of tension with a female PC as it is. When I played a female BH during the beta, before I knew same-sex romances weren't in the game, I thought it was pretty darn obvious that Mako and my lady BH were going to end up together. I don't think it's a stretch at all to make Mako bisexual.

 

Yeah, there are a lot of comments from Mako that could be construed to be a bit more than just innocent banter. I initially thought it might become something more, until I found out there weren't any same-gender relationships yet. *sniff*

 

I wouldn't think it'd be that much of a stretch either.

 

Dorne or bust, baby!

 

... Er, well... I suppose Dorne *and* bust would be more apt...

(Yes, I'm still a little kid at heart. )

 

Dorne's bust, baby?

 

But yes, Dorne is definitely a sexy beast. I adore her accent.

 

I'd be all for Bioware just making all the romanceable companions "hero-sexual". It'd take a little story-tinkering, but I'm sure it could be done without THAT much trouble. The big question would be getting the proper dialogue lines VO'd, if they don't already have them.

[Kioma]

I'd argue that it *is* our society; it's just been projected onto a galaxy far far away.

 

Well, that's a fair point. I'd still argue it's not our society, we simply view it through our own societal lens. Personally I could see very clear justification to make some societies in Star Wars a great deal more tolerant of non-hetero sexualities than others.

[Kioma]

I'd be all for Bioware just making all the romanceable companions "hero-sexual". It'd take a little story-tinkering, but I'm sure it could be done without THAT much trouble. The big question would be getting the proper dialogue lines VO'd, if they don't already have them.

 

Hero-sexual is the way to go. It solves so very much in one swoop*.

 

The VO lines, well, I can imagine that a bit of creative seamless editing would fix whatever needs to be fixed - though most of the lines don't seem to need that much tinkering.

 

* = Even if swooping IS bad.

Edited February 16, 2012 by Kioma

[Raiellyn]

Dorne's bust, baby?

 

But yes, Dorne is definitely a sexy beast. I adore her accent.

 

... Yes, much better phrasing than mine.

 

If I don't get Dorne for my next trooper soon, I will *not* be a happy camper.

And that's already taking into account my natural snide and sarcastic disposition.

 

(Note to Bioware; Mako is an acceptable second-choice.)

[Kiralai]

I'd be all for Bioware just making all the romanceable companions "hero-sexual". It'd take a little story-tinkering, but I'm sure it could be done without THAT much trouble. The big question would be getting the proper dialogue lines VO'd, if they don't already have them.

 

As would I, though you're right that a number of the lines and content would have to be altered to accommodate the difference in gender. I know there's instances of my SW being called "woman" and "wife" in companion cutscenes.

 

 

Come to think of it, one of Quinn's letters is entirely concerned with the idea of having children. Of course that's not inherently problematic when it comes to homosexual coupling, except that he specifically refers to the idea that the SW would be bearing the children herself. Things like that would have to be changed as well. Well, unless there is a brave man out there who considers himself up to the challenge.

 

[LyriaFrost]

Well, that's a fair point. I'd still argue it's not our society, we simply view it through our own societal lens. Personally I could see very clear justification to make some societies in Star Wars a great deal more tolerant of non-hetero sexualities than others.

 

Considering there are people falling in love with one another across species boundaries (human and twi'lek, for instance), I could definitely see most of the societies within the SW universe being more open to same-gender romance.

 

BH: Nobody understands our love!

Blizz: Utinni!

 

[Kiralai]

BH: Nobody understands our love!

Blizz: Utinni!

 

Fund it, Bioware! /signed

[stuffystuffs]

Mako in particular gets a lot of tension with a female PC as it is. When I played a female BH during the beta, before I knew same-sex romances weren't in the game, I thought it was pretty darn obvious that Mako and my lady BH were going to end up together. I don't think it's a stretch at all to make Mako bisexual.

 

Oh no, don't tell me that...my next toon is a female BH.

 

I had enough of that with FemAgent/Kaliyo to last a lifetime.

 

 

 

BH: Nobody understands our love!

Blizz: Utinni!

 

 

 

Blizz/FemBH is the only heterosexual romance I'd ever do.

Edited February 16, 2012 by stuffystuffs