Has Bioware already lost the PvP base?

[TheBigBee]

Or they're playing because they're sick of WoW, or maybe everyone on your server sucks and those people are simply decent players. Or maybe they want to keep playing with their guild. Or maybe they're just dicking around in a casual PvP game until other games come out. Stupid generalization is stupid.

 

them being still there is the point....i dont know the reason... and dont care....but shouting very one is leaving is kinda dumb

 

I hit 50 before the game was launched.....and all I do is pvp....so yea I know the community pretty good

[JackMinn]

All the good pvpers are still on and active on our server.....my guess is your losing people who think there good at pvp (mainly wow arena players who used group make up to climb a ladder...and thought that was skill)

 

Im glad your server is doing well, I really hoped mine would fair well too. But the fact is a lot of our best pvpers quit the game, sure there are other "good pvpers" who havent hit 50 yet so their potential isnt discovered but all the names who made 50 at the start quit. A lot of the players who I played with every single day in warzones on release and became friends with all quit as well. Heck about 75% of my guild quit since we are a pvp guild. I personally unsubbed yesterday, as a player who leveled exclusively in warzones and was valor 49 when I dinged 50, it just wasnt quite what I had in mind. I know I played it a lot and milked the cow so to speak but the fact is that good PvP games should never get tiring or repetitive, that is the point of pvp, its ever changing, unless the game mechanics and combat just dont allow it as is the case with swtor.

 

I think at this point a great deal of the pvp player base is irreversibly lost. Perhaps ranked warzones will bring a few back but theyll be quick to leave when games like GW2 come out with monthly and yearly tournaments, or a game like TERA comes out which has more innovative combat with their targetting system. Basically swtor did nothing good except adopt the star wars IP, but that alone can not make a game.

[SWImara]

Fair enough points. I think the pvp crowd has gotten a bad rep but there's nothing I can do about that. I didn't really post doom and gloom for all of SWTOR. I still think it'll be successful months down the line, maybe years. But it won't be because of the pvp in it.

The PvP crowd has definitely gotten a bad rep over the years. In large part due to generalizations (which I'm guilty of making just as often as anyone else). You are probably right in that your post seemed a valid critique and to a degree I just took it as the standard forum QQing I've seen in every game I've played post-WoW. You do raise some really great points, points which I think many of us are aware of, I just don't know if your conclusion was wholly reasonable.

 

Perhaps you're right and my definition was too narrow. I was just trying to address the people who prioritize pvp or pve content. Why? Because these are the kinds of people I think ToR will have to fight tooth and nail to retain against the other AAA MMOs coming out this year...and I don't think they're as much of a niche audience as they're often made out to be. Not anymore.

Personally I definitely prioritize PvP over PvE content, but my point is that what does that mean. There are lots of different things PvPers love, many of which are highly contradictory.

 

• world PVP vs. instanced PvP
  
• PvP for the sake of PvP vs. Competitives
  
• FFA vs. RvR
  
• Punishment systems (ie murder points) vs. Wild West (lawless)
  
• "Skill based" vs. "Gear Based"
  
• Twitch vs. Strategy
  
• Collision vs. Bunny Hoppers/Circle Jumpers
  
• Gear from crafting (player economy) vs. Gear from tokens/raiding
  
• Solos vs. Guildies
  
• Consequences for dying vs. None

 

Writing a game that would be enjoyable for all of the above groups or even a simple majority of them wouldn't be easy... particularly if that game wasn't only about PvP. My reaction was in part due to Ilum, if anything the PVP forum community has ourselves to blame to a certain degree for the current state of PvP on Ilum. In an ideal world the developers would think things through on their own merit and rigorously test etc, in an MMO however there's the crazed push post-release to appease as much of the player-base as possible.

 

I would totally agree that "PvPers" are not a niche group, All kinds of people like PvP and new players are growing to learn that it isn't as horrible as their friends have made it out to be. PvPers are a really diverse group however, and one game can't really hope to cater to all of them. Esporters and FFA Open Worlders for example will never get along, so who should developers focus on.

 

I wasn't attempting to speak for everyone, just start a dialogue spearheaded by a simple question.

 

I never said the game was going down in flames, sorry. I gave valid criticisms of this game which I've yet to see anyone refute.

At least in part I misinterpreted what you were trying to do with your initial post, honestly my bad.

Edited February 9, 2012 by SWImara

[TheBigBee]

^^^^^

 

sorry to hear...yea im on dark reaper...Im in a pvp guild also....maybe they will have server xfer soon look us up

[nschlan]

them being still there is the point....i dont know the reason... and dont care....but shouting very one is leaving is kinda dumb

 

I hit 50 before the game was launched.....and all I do is pvp....so yea I know the community pretty good

 

Yeah I'm sure you do. No one is shouting everyone is quitting right now, we're saying people are going to quit when other games come out because the PvP in this game is subpar.

Edited February 9, 2012 by nschlan

[TheBigBee]

Yeah I'm sure you do, cause spending a lot of time in the game means you know everything...no one is shouting everyone is quitting, we're saying people are going to quit when other games come out because the PvP in this game is subpar.

 

im saying the pvp is fine and the players are subpar....

 

edit for example

 

 

objective swapping....kill swapping... just 2 of my big points

Edited February 9, 2012 by TheBigBee

[nschlan]

im saying the pvp is fine and the players are subpar....

 

You said "no one on my server is leaving right now so PvP is ok". That doesn't make the PvP fine or players subpar. That just means people on your server don't want to quit yet.

Edited February 9, 2012 by nschlan

[EasymodeX]

I'm talking about the people who, at cap, are playing a given MMO for the pvp content. I can't help but feel, after reading these forums and talking to people from various pvp guilds on my server that it's pretty much already a wash for PvP in this game.

 

Don't know what you expected. This is a PvE game. From all the evidence pre-release, it was going to be another WoWclone with +story +voiceover +lightsaber.

 

Surprise, that's exactly what it turned out to be!

 

The game is not even designed in the least to be scalable and have great longevity for PvP -- the gear is tiered, there's a "PvP stat", the PvP venues are unrelated, diluting the action. A thousand detailed mechanisms necessary to PvP stability are missing -- basic things like leaver penalties for Warzones to more advanced things like "is there any open PvP system". Pop cap bugs, out-of-combat consumables from obscure PvE quests, animation imbalances between the factions, animation-centric (rather than mechanic-centric) abilities. Zzz.

 

 

This game is merely a stop-over between MMOs, where you can kick back and relax with a pretty decent story and dialogue in a multiplayer KOTOR, and swing lightsabers.

 

Every time I see players "TRY HARD" in PvP -- full premades, multiple premades, rerolling FOTM -- I laugh. There's zero point in this game to invest yourself into serious level PvP. There's just so much wrong with the game to support that.

 

I mean hell, your abilities don't even fire off correctly until the latest patches (for the most part).

 

BioWare has a long, long, long way to go before I'd even consider this game anywhere near serious about PvP.

 

 

The second point is often presented by PvE players who could care less about PvP but let me assure you: That is not the official stance Gabe and his PvP are taking. If they were to publicly say that, they'd lose subs in droves.

 

Which is why they will not pubilcly say that, but you're a fool if you expect them to make PvP a significant priority in SWTOR. Look at the lineup of the next 3 patches -- more PvE. More PvE. More PvE. Reasonable risk of new PvE gear tiers or superior itemization.

 

Gear will eventually gnaw away at whatever PvP is actually in this game and bog it down in the same gear-inflation rut as WoW.

 

I'm sure they'll eventually put some structure to Ilum that isn't completely fail. But, they'll throw dailies at it and make it required for PvP gear. People will grind it out in a week and then forget it.

 

Shrug.

[ocping]

I just spent the past 3+ hours trying to get 3 warzone wins.

 

I played 11 in total, with 4 100% legit wins and 7 losses (5 due to imps on my server using max player exploit), am at 1/3 WZ wins and it's been this way for 3 weeks. I'm seriously getting sick of this **** and will cancel if next patch doesn't fix

 

1) warzone wins not counting

 

2) max player exploit still gets ignored

 

/sigh

[TheBigBee]

You said "no one on my server is leaving right now so PvP is ok". That doesn't make the PvP fine or players subpar.

 

yea they still there....also didnt say the whole server was full of good pvper.....we got alot of crybabies and care-bears who thought their wow account xfered over and they could keep there arena wins...But yes the good players are still owning the bad ones and the bad ones come on here and cry

[TheBigBee]

All the good pvpers are still on and active on our server.....my guess is your losing people who think there good at pvp (mainly wow arena players who used group make up to climb a ladder...and thought that was skill)

 

ill back up my words with my own quote......

[nschlan]

yea they still there....also didnt say the whole server was full of good pvper.....we got alot of crybabies and care-bears who thought their wow account xfered over and they could keep there arena wins...But yes the good players are still owning the bad ones and the bad ones come on here and cry

 

You're missing the point. I don't care about the bad players on your server. You're saying that because the "good" players on YOUR server (one of many I might add) are still here so PvP must be fine and the only people quitting on other servers are bad PvPers. You also think people on this thread are shouting "everyone is quitting!" when we're really just saying the PvP sucks. Saying the PvP sucks doesn't make people bad. You also fail to take into account that they might quit when other games come out.

Edited February 9, 2012 by nschlan

[TheBigBee]

Don't know what you expected. This is a PvE game. From all the evidence pre-release, it was going to be another WoWclone with +story +voiceover +lightsaber.

 

Surprise, that's exactly what it turned out to be!

 

The game is not even designed in the least to be scalable and have great longevity for PvP -- the gear is tiered, there's a "PvP stat", the PvP venues are unrelated, diluting the action. A thousand detailed mechanisms necessary to PvP stability are missing -- basic things like leaver penalties for Warzones to more advanced things like "is there any open PvP system". Pop cap bugs, out-of-combat consumables from obscure PvE quests, animation imbalances between the factions, animation-centric (rather than mechanic-centric) abilities. Zzz.

 

 

This game is merely a stop-over between MMOs, where you can kick back and relax with a pretty decent story and dialogue in a multiplayer KOTOR, and swing lightsabers.

 

Every time I see players "TRY HARD" in PvP -- full premades, multiple premades, rerolling FOTM -- I laugh. There's zero point in this game to invest yourself into serious level PvP. There's just so much wrong with the game to support that.

 

I mean hell, your abilities don't even fire off correctly until the latest patches (for the most part).

 

BioWare has a long, long, long way to go before I'd even consider this game anywhere near serious about PvP.

 

 

 

 

Which is why they will not pubilcly say that, but you're a fool if you expect them to make PvP a significant priority in SWTOR. Look at the lineup of the next 3 patches -- more PvE. More PvE. More PvE. Reasonable risk of new PvE gear tiers or superior itemization.

 

Gear will eventually gnaw away at whatever PvP is actually in this game and bog it down in the same gear-inflation rut as WoW.

 

I'm sure they'll eventually put some structure to Ilum that isn't completely fail. But, they'll throw dailies at it and make it required for PvP gear. People will grind it out in a week and then forget it.

 

Shrug.

 

Welcome to a new game.....sorry its not polished up...the bugs and problem you think are priority doesn't mean they are...glad you think games should revolve around you tho

[TheBigBee]

You're missing the point. I don't care about the bad players on your server. You're saying that because the "good" players on YOUR server (one of many I might add) are still here so PvP must be fine and the only people quitting on other servers are bad PvPers. You also think people on this thread are shouting "everyone is quitting!" when we're really just saying the PvP sucks. Saying the PvP sucks doesn't make people bad. You also fail to take into account that they might quit when other games come out.

 

OR....they might not quit....2 can play the guessing game....is it gonna rain today?

[Erasimus]

Yeah I'm sure you do. No one is shouting everyone is quitting right now, we're saying people are going to quit when other games come out because the PvP in this game is subpar.

 

If a better game comes out that may happen. But look at the record of MMOs over the last 4 or 5 years. There were a number of them that at least some of the "PvP" community liked, where are they now?

 

I've played WoW since release, and still do from time to time, but I have gotten weary of WoW. Of all the other MMOs I've tried since WoW, and I've tried quite a few, only SWTOR has been able to keep me playing past a few weeks.

 

The OP makes some valid points, but many of them can be, and most likely will be, remedied as the game matures. Rated WZs will help as will some new, larger, WZs that require a bit more strategy. While a number of people have made 50 the percentages last I checked were still pretty low. Even "hard core" players take a while to get to 50 in this game if their play time is constrained to a couple of hours a day.

 

(Note: I define "hard core" as someone who really enjoys MMOs and spends a significant amount of their free time playing. Not someone, who for whatever reason can spend 5,6 or more hours a day playing.)

 

P.S.To solve the "Huttball" issue I switched my main to Republic and my Gunslinger just made 50 about a week ago.

Edited February 9, 2012 by Erasimus

[nschlan]

OR....they might not quit....2 can play the guessing game....is it gonna rain today?

 

I never said they will, I said you're not taking into the account that they MIGHT. Also, thanks for ignoring the majority of my post and focusing on 1 sentence. It feels good to know the other person has run out of poor arguments

[Kryptorchid]

Agreed, but that's what this whole post is about, a broad generalization on the PvP player base.

 

If you are going to generalize the PvP player base as "flaky" based on how they flock from game to game in MMOs (which is evident from the past), I am also going to generalize them as "dedicated" when they find a game that meets their needs. There isn't a good MMO nowadays that shows this, but look at other PvP-games like SC2, CS, WC3, etc. When a game comes along that offers fun and fulfilling PvP, the PvP-base will not be "flaky" anymore.

Edited February 9, 2012 by Kryptorchid

[TheBigBee]

I never said they will, I said you're not taking into the account that they MIGHT. Also, thanks for ignoring the majority of my post and focusing on 1 sentence. It feels good to know the other person has run out of poor arguments

 

 

The world MIGHT end tomrrow.......Good luck everyone

[Erasimus]

I just spent the past 3+ hours trying to get 3 warzone wins.

 

I played 11 in total, with 4 100% legit wins and 7 losses (5 due to imps on my server using max player exploit), am at 1/3 WZ wins and it's been this way for 3 weeks. I'm seriously getting sick of this **** and will cancel if next patch doesn't fix

 

1) warzone wins not counting

 

2) max player exploit still gets ignored

 

/sigh

 

Since I turned off quest tracking for everything, every one of my WZ matches that I've won, at least 9, have all counted. I don't know if this will help you, but if you haven't given it a try it is worth a shot.

[nschlan]

If a better game comes out that may happen. But look at the record of MMOs over the last 4 or 5 years. There were a number of them that at least some of the "PvP" community liked, where are they now?

made 50 about a week ago.

 

Those games are all WoW clones. People here are saying that when games come out that aren't WoW clones, there's a good chance the PvP community will shift to them. Also you talk about stuff like adding Rateds and more WZs, but that's not even the issue. The issue is the easiness of the PvP, the gear grind, the lack of attention given to PvP by devs, lack of ANY open world PvP and the RNG of getting gear.

Edited February 9, 2012 by nschlan

[Carebear]

If 1.2 doesn't fix Ilum, fix BM bag RNG, and some minor tweaks, then I wouldn't be surprised if PvP in this game begins to die down. I know I won't be subbing in 1.2 if Ilum isn't fixed.

[golfwang]

I just spent the past 3+ hours trying to get 3 warzone wins.

 

I played 11 in total, with 4 100% legit wins and 7 losses (5 due to imps on my server using max player exploit), am at 1/3 WZ wins and it's been this way for 3 weeks. I'm seriously getting sick of this **** and will cancel if next patch doesn't fix

 

1) warzone wins not counting

 

2) max player exploit still gets ignored

 

/sigh

 

Yea that's probably one of the more infuriating bugs in the game right now. I'm surprised it hasn't been addressed yet since it so heavily impacts pvp progression, especially for solo queue players. I guess it's just a tough fix atm.

 

I can't even play warzones right now tbh, for both of those reasons and more.

[nschlan]

The world MIGHT end tomrrow.......Good luck everyone

 

Again, thank you you failed to prove anything.

[TheBigBee]

If you are going to generalize the PvP player base as "flaky" based on how they flock from game to game in MMOs (which is evident from the past), I am also going to generalize them as "dedicated" when they find a game that meets their needs. There isn't a good MMO nowadays that shows this, but look at other PvP-games like SC2, CS, WC3, etc. When a game comes along that offers fun and fulfilling PvP, the PvP-base will not be "flaky" anymore.

 

RTS and MMO are not the same pvp type games

 

List your MMO pvp type games please and you will see what hes talking about

[TheBigBee]

Again, thank you you failed to prove anything.

 

The word MIGHT fails to prove anything...its y i keep saying it.....im making fun of you