Nrrrdking Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Join a Guild Guilds are the best LFG tool in all MMOs. There's a sense of community, you can often find people doing the same content as you and people tend to know their roles. PuGs in any form or however they are contrived make for a poor group experience. Participating in them is inviting grief. Get some IRL friends together, hang out in the forums, do whatever it takes to find good people to hang out with and form or join a guild. there you go problem solved. have a nice day Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crica Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 People flock to incentives. This is a simple economic/praxeologic fact. You can buy private health care in Canada, but there's little-to-no incentive to do so, so even devout libertarians usually do not. Similarly, there would be no incentive for people -- en masse -- to "opt out" of the cross-realm LFD system, so you'd be pigeon holed into either using it, or relying on a core of pre-established friends to make up your groups. I know this, I tried it in WoW. people play games for enjoyment. i am asking you how me enjoying auto-grouping with other players who also enjoy auto-grouping is going to stop you from enjoying grouping up manually with other players who also enjoy grouping up manually? Are you going to answer? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drainedsoul Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 people play games for enjoyment. i am asking you how me enjoying auto-grouping with other players who also enjoy auto-grouping is going to stop you from enjoying grouping up manually with other players who also enjoy grouping up manually? Are you going to answer? I did answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
souloferdrick Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 You can find/join/create a guild, you can find, make and maintain friends, but somehow finding a couple of people to do small party content is beyond your abilities. For some reason, your brain shuts off and you can't figure out how to type or put a group together. So much so, someone has to create a tool to do it for you. I'd be fine with all of that, if it just ended there....but it never does. So you get your group finder and then you "need" the devs to create a loot distribution tool because the loot is not going out how you would distribute it and of course there is always a risk of someone playing ninja. After that gets implemented, its time to start telling people how to play and how to gear their character because your time is so valuable and the call goes out for a gear score type thing to make sure youre being grouped with people worthy of your company. All this has been done before and it sucked all those times. Getting easy groups is great until you have to deal with the consequences of easy groups. Which you will never do because you couldn't even get it together enough to run four man content. This whole debate is tragically lame and Im supposed to take my cues from people who can't perform the most basic of all functions in a group/party based game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crica Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 I did answer. I don't see an answer saying how me and players like me are stopping you and players like you from grouping up manually together? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drainedsoul Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 (edited) All this has been done before and it sucked all those times. Getting easy groups is great until you have to deal with the consequences of easy groups. Which you will never do because you couldn't even get it together enough to run four man content. Bravo! Encore! I don't see an answer saying how me and players like me are stopping you and players like you from grouping up manually together? Reading comprehension is very useful... My response was thus: People flock to incentives. Providing a cross-server LFG tool is an incentive (i.e. easy groups), therefore, people flock to it. This means that the mere presence of an LFG tool creates an incentive which drains the pool of people who will find a group manually, or use any vestigial tool for this purpose (in WoW's case, the tool was entirely eliminated), which impacts the ability of people who want to develop a sense of community to form their own PuGs. Moreover, people are very often incapable of seeing the macro effects of their aggregate actions. Individual people switching from finding groups the traditional way to using a cross-server LFG tool will not believe that they -- individually -- are causing the problem, and will not -- therefore -- exercise restraint in not using the tool to find their own groups, they will, however, feel the effects of this action in aggregate -- i.e. by all/most members of the player base. Lastly, once this proverbial ball is rolling, people will not "roll back" the action for the same reason stated above: They feel that their individual action of stopping usage of the system will not revert the effect as the effect is the result aggregate action, and therefore they feel that their reversal will have little-to-no effect, so they continue, hoping that someone -- not them -- will start, and that they can bandwagon once the movement is big enough that they won't feel the effects. Edited February 7, 2012 by Drainedsoul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crica Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 (edited) Bravo! Encore! Reading comprehension is very useful... My response was thus: People flock to incentives. Providing a cross-server LFG tool is an incentive (i.e. easy groups), therefore, people flock to it. This means that the mere presence of an LFG tool creates an incentive which drains the pool of people who will find a group manually, or use any vestigial tool for this purpose (in WoW's case, the tool was entirely eliminated), which impacts the ability of people who want to develop a sense of community to form their own PuGs. Moreover, people are very often incapable of seeing the macro effects of their aggregate actions. Individual people switching from finding groups the traditional way to using a cross-server LFG tool will not believe that they -- individually -- are causing the problem, and will not -- therefore -- exercise restraint in not using the tool to find their own groups, they will, however, feel the effects of this action in aggregate -- i.e. by all/most members of the player base. so, you are saying you don't REALLY enjoy grouping up manually, nor does anyone else? that if there was an auto-grouping tool, that you and players like you, would use it because you all really don't enjoy grouping up manually? Edited February 7, 2012 by crica Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
souloferdrick Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 so, you are saying you don't REALLY enjoy grouping up manually, nor does anyone else? that is there was an auto-grouping tool, that you and players like you, would use it because you all really don't enjoy grouping up manually? No. He's saying the masses using the tool will eventually overcome and assimilate any resistance because that's what the masses do. Ultimately, those who would do it a different way will have to succumb if they want to be afforded the same opportunities as everyone else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drainedsoul Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 (edited) so, you are saying you don't REALLY enjoy grouping up manually, nor does anyone else? that if there was an auto-grouping tool, that you and players like you, would use it because you all really don't enjoy grouping up manually? I enjoy grouping up manually because I know the effects of not grouping up manually, and because I enjoy the effects of grouping up manually. Other people resent it either because they don't care about the effects of grouping up manually (i.e. people who'd be better-served playing not-an-MMO) or because they lack the analytic ability (or will) to see the effects of another solution. It's like having a job, except the effects of having a job are much more obvious. You could say that people don't like having a job, and you might be somewhat correct (or technically correct). But people like money, and, barring that, like the things that money can buy, and therefore they work. If you said that someone would never have to work again, they'd probably jump at the opportunity, but everyone can never have to work again, they can just stop working. The issue is that then they'd run out of money, and the things that money buys, which they like (or need to survive), and therefore, they keep working. So basically, the reasons that LFD is a bad idea is the same reason socialism (or "welfarism" if you prefer that term) is a bad idea: Perverse incentives. Edited February 7, 2012 by Drainedsoul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurojiin Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 (edited) I really don't understand one objection raised against LFG tools: you might get grouped with a griefer or a bad player. What exactly prevents this from happening when you put together a group with general chat spam? Edit: and someone just compared an LFD tool to socialism. Nobel Prize incoming. Edited February 7, 2012 by Aurojiin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drainedsoul Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 I really don't understand one objection raised against LFG tools: you might get grouped with a griefer or a bad player. What exactly prevents this from happening when you put together a group with general chat spam? You can just straight up boot them. LFD tends towards elimination of unilateral kick powers because of "abuse". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crica Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 I enjoy grouping up manually because I know the effects of not grouping up manually, and because I enjoy the effects of grouping up manually. Other people resent it either because they don't care about the effects of grouping up manually (i.e. people who'd be better-served playing not-an-MMO) or because they lack the analytic ability (or will) to see the effects of another solution. It's like having a job, except the effects of having a job are much more obvious. You could say that people don't like having a job, and you might be somewhat correct (or technically correct). But people like money, and, barring that, like the things that money can buy, and therefore they work. If you said that someone would never have to work again, they'd probably jump at the opportunity, but everyone can never have to work again, they can just stop working. The issue is that then they'd run out of money, and the things that money buys, which they like (or need to survive), and therefore, they keep working. So basically, the reasons that LFD is a bad idea is the same reason socialism (or "welfarism" if you prefer that term) is a bad idea: Perverse incentives. like i said, you think everyone who ENJOYS grouping up manually will no longer group up manually even though they ENJOY grouping up manually... That they will pay 15bucks a month to STOP doing what they ENJOY doing (grouping up manually) and instead do what they do NOT enjoy (auto-group). LOL...all I can say to that is sorry, but I am NOT going to pay 15bucks a month to do something i DO NOT enjoy - I am going to use that 15bucks a month on something I DO enjoy instead. And you predicting that EVERYONE would spend their money on something they do NOT enjoy is... well... something I have never heard before nor have experienced before in the entertainment world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chomag Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 I really don't understand one objection raised against LFG tools: you might get grouped with a griefer or a bad player. What exactly prevents this from happening when you put together a group with general chat spam? Let's not talk about hate. Seems people hate LFG, dual spec, macros, addons, companions and pretty much everything else that is or could be in the game. The reasons range from stupid to slightly logical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drainedsoul Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 like i said, you think everyone who ENJOYS grouping up manually will no longer group up manually even though they ENJOY grouping up manually... That they will pay 15bucks a month to STOP doing what they ENJOY doing (grouping up manually) and instead do what they do NOT enjoy (auto-group). LOL...all I can say to that is sorry, but I am NOT going to pay 15bucks a month to do something i DO NOT enjoy - I am going to use that 15bucks a month on something I DO enjoy instead. And you predicting that EVERYONE would spend their money on something they do NOT enjoy is... well... something I have never heard before nor have experienced before in the entertainment world. You clearly fail to understand what I'm saying. People don't stop grouping up manually because they choose to do something they don't enjoy, they do so because either: A. They do not see the effects of not doing so (grouping up automatically is more convenient, they don't see the cause/effect linkage between the desirable means and undesirable end, and therefore they do it). B. They're "crowded out" by people using the tool, to the point where the base of people to manually group up with is too small to effectively group in this manner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurojiin Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 You can just straight up boot them. If you're the group leader. That's not always going to be the case, is it? Add an ignore function to avoid future pairings. What's the problem now, apart from the fact that LFG tools somehow destroy the community? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
souloferdrick Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 I really don't understand one objection raised against LFG tools: you might get grouped with a griefer or a bad player. What exactly prevents this from happening when you put together a group with general chat spam? Because you can screen the player either before extending the invite or right after thus allowing you to avoid being grouped with someone who you might otherwise choose not to be grouped with. Also, griefers happen but griefers and ninja's thrive in LFD enviroments because its easy to exploit: The game provides the victims with zero effort. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dotndrop Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 No to DS, again, its a trinity based MMO and we are not ment to every job at the drop of a hat. but saying that, my pvp spec would be different than my pve spec, even though im doing the same role :/ so id like 2 specs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chomag Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 but saying that, my pvp spec would be different than my pve spec, even though im doing the same role :/ so id like 2 specs Using logic against feature haters is pointless work. Just move on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drainedsoul Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 If you're the group leader. That's not always going to be the case, is it? And if you're all "abused" by a group leader, you can leave and make your own group, whereas with cross-server implementations, there's usually no way for you to forsake your "leader" and reform the group. Add an ignore function to avoid future pairings. What's the problem now, apart from the fact that LFG tools somehow destroy the community? The ignore feature -- in implementation -- is not effective for three reasons: 1. It's not a deterrent of future bad behaviour. Being kicked and being called out in LFG/general/trade/on the forums means that people will see your name and not want to invite you in the future. This is a very real concern. You may have to name change or server transfer (i.e. spend real life money) to escape these consequences. With LFD there's a virtually infinite pool of people to abuse, so you just queue up again. 2. Most implementations cause you to avoid the ignored, rather than the ignored to avoid you, which means assuming you and the person you ignored would've been paired together again, you pass over the group and have a longer queue time, while they're unpunished. 3. There's a very large pool of griefers to be paired with, as opposed to an individual server. A WoW-specific problem is that the vote to kick feature actually shields people from being kicked if they're being kicked too frequently. So if you grief people to the point where you've been kicked many times in a day, Blizzard literally makes you kick immune for a time, so you can grief with impunity. This is the logical conclusion of cross-server LFG. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurojiin Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Because you can screen the player either before extending the invite or right after thus allowing you to avoid being grouped with someone who you might otherwise choose not to be grouped with. Also, griefers happen but griefers and ninja's thrive in LFD enviroments because its easy to exploit: The game provides the victims with zero effort. Perhaps, but a large number of multiplayer matchmaking-based games manage to function despite this. As I said, add an ignore function. On top of this, once the game finds an appropriate matchup, it could offer all players a chance to inspect the group they'll be joining before accepting, rather than just automatically throwing them in. I guess it's just different priorities. I purchased the game and pay a subscription for it because I want experience the content, not to enhance my social life. If I'm playing the game, that's because I want to play the game, not spend half an hour spamming general chat, which apparently enhances the community. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crica Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 (edited) You clearly fail to understand what I'm saying. People don't stop grouping up manually because they choose to do something they don't enjoy, they do so because either: A. They do not see the effects of not doing so (grouping up automatically is more convenient, they don't see the cause/effect linkage between the desirable means and undesirable end, and therefore they do it). B. They're "crowded out" by people using the tool, to the point where the base of people to manually group up with is too small to effectively group in this manner. if people do NOT enjoy auto-grouping, they are going to group up manually. Period. if people enjoy grouping up manually, they are NOT going to auto-group unless they enjoy it as well. Period. people do NOT pay money for entertainment they DO NOT ENJOY. Period. Edited February 7, 2012 by crica Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
souloferdrick Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 What's the problem now, apart from the fact that LFG tools somehow destroy the community? You already have no community if you require an LFG tool in the first place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZomgAChicken Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Can't wait for the dungeon finder http://pc.ign.com/articles/121/1214438p1.html Third question Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cdstephen Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Funny how TOR took a step back from what Rift did with class design. Sigh... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drainedsoul Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 if people do NOT enjoy auto-grouping, they are going to group up manually. Period. if people enjoy grouping up manually, they are NOT going to auto-group unless they enjoy it as well. Period. people do NOT pay money for entertainment they DO NOT ENJOY. Period. People do not enjoy low quality health care but they still agitate for socialized medicine. People do not enjoy high taxes and a bankrupt country, but they still agitate for "social" programs and ever-growing defense budgets. People do not enjoy joblessness and poverty, but they still drop out of high school. Do I need to go on? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts