Bodyguard Mercs need a slight buff.

[TempestasSilva]

I think a better analogy is that we all paid $3 dollars. We got PIE while the other got CAKE. Then you start to wonder why the pie can't taste more like cake.

 

Not it at all. To go with this analogy, for$3 they got half a cake and we got a slice of pie. Yeah, the pie tastes good, and I prefer pie over cake. But why not 1/2 a pie or 1/4 even, why only 1 slice?

 

And I dont meant to single you out, there are several people in this thread that agree with you. I am also glad you are not one of the ones making it sound like the class is broken or needs to AoE heal as well as a Sorc.

 

I just think that when you compare AoE to AoE, Sorcs are WAY better. And then when you look at utility, they are WAY better. Single target to single target, we are better, significantly better even, but not WAY better.

 

So why not buff us just a little and include more utility? I'm still playing a BG if thy don't, but where's the harm?

 

Neither of us is probably going to change the other's mind, but thanks for being reasonable, contributing to the discussion, and your helpful posts in other threads. And thanks for tolerating my bad analogy(analogies?)

[Dartagon]

Not it at all. To go with this analogy, for$3 they got half a cake and we got a slice of pie. Yeah, the pie tastes good, and I prefer pie over cake. But why not 1/2 a pie or 1/4 even, why only 1 slice?

 

And I dont meant to single you out, there are several people in this thread that agree with you. I am also glad you are not one of the ones making it sound like the class is broken or needs to AoE heal as well as a Sorc.

 

I just think that when you compare AoE to AoE, Sorcs are WAY better. And then when you look at utility, they are WAY better. Single target to single target, we are better, significantly better even, but not WAY better.

 

So why not buff us just a little and include more utility? I'm still playing a BG if thy don't, but where's the harm?

 

Neither of us is probably going to change the other's mind, but thanks for being reasonable, contributing to the discussion, and your helpful posts in other threads. And thanks for tolerating my bad analogy(analogies?)

 

I like you analogies

 

But I still think BH utility is under rated. Maybe I'm just so focused on how I play that I don't stop and look at what the other healer in my op is doing. I really tunnel vision the melee and tank cause that's my role in the ops. The sorc/Operative can handle the pesky fire standing range.

 

I'd like to have a healing meter just so that I can start showing some numbers and calling people on their BS.

[RuQu]

Funny I should stumble upon this topic, I was just posting about similar issues in the Healer forum. You Mercs should come visit us some time. We have a nice Commando Healing guide, a Healer Change Request Compilation for all classes, and gluten-free snacks.

 

Personally, I think the classes should be as different as possible, while still being able to accomplish the same tasks. There are guilds out there who only take Troopers, as an RP issue, and balancing fights around assuming a Sage/Sorc is in the group greatly limits player freedom. And it is currently assumed that there is a Sage/Sorc, the other classes don't get close. Here is the math, based on the coefficients and modifiers from Torhead for each of the AoE abilities, and using the bonus healing I currently have.

 

And please note at the beginning that I have no desire to see a Sage/Sorc nerf. Content is balanced around their AoE capability, the other classes need to be able to bring that same capability to the table so Merc/Merc, Op/Op, and Merc/Op runs are competitve with Sorc/X and Sorc/Sorc.

 

Let's make sure we all agree on the details of the abilities:

 

Sage:

Salvation

Cost 100 Force (out of 500/600 max)

Cooldown 15s

Cast Time 2s

Radius: 8m

Player Limit (no limit)

HoT (10s, 1s tick rate)

Average Base Heal: 134.615

Coefficient: 0.376

 

Commando:

Kolto Bomb

Cost 2 Ammo (out of 12, max regen zone is 8-12)

Cooldown 6s

Cast Time Instant

Radius 8m

Player Limit 3

Initial Heal, applies 5% healing buff (15s). During SCC, applies 10% DR Shield (15s)

Average Base Heal: 382.59

Coefficient: 1.08

 

Scoundrel:

Kolto Cloud

Cost 30 Energy (out of 100, max regen zone is 60-100)

Cooldown 12s

Cast Time Instant

Radius 10m

Player Limit 4

HoT only (15s, 3s tick rate)

Average Base Heal 132.032

Coefficient 0.386

 

The coefficients are multiplied by your Bonus Healing, which, assuming that is equal between classes in given gear, gives a sense of how well they scale. Coefficients on HoTs are always small, you need to multiply them by the number of ticks to compare to a non-HoT.

 

For the sake of comparison, let's look at a 15 second window. KC and Salv have 12 second cooldowns, so they can be cast a second time at t=12, but KC won't be because it lasts 15s and doesn't stack. Salv will be, but only the first 3 ticks of the second heal will be considered. KB will be tossed 3 times, at t=0, t=6, and t=12. At each time we will examine a case of 3 , 4, 8, 16 players. I currently have ~410 Bonus Healing, so that is the number I will use.

 

First, lets compare costs. Salv and KB both cost 16.6% of max resources, compared to 30% for KC. The more forgiving regen of Commandos probably renders the EC of KB to be slightly cheaper than Salv.

 

KB and KC are both instant, therefore take 1.5s fixed time to cast, and can be cast on the run. Salv is 2s, but with the levels of Alacrity on this tier of gear that is easily down to around 1.6s, although still requires them to stand still.

 

So far we have seen that Commandos have the most limited AoE, Scoundrels have the most expensive, and Sages must stand still for 1.6-2 seconds. What are the returns for these tradeoffs?

 

Salvation: Average Heal per person per tick = 134.615 + 0.376*410 = 288.775

Kolto Bomb: Average Heal per person = 382.59 +1.08*410 = 825.39 (866.66 on casts 2 and 3)

Kolto Cloud: Average Heal per person per tick = 132.032 + 0.386*410 = 290.292

 

Over 15 seconds:

3 Players / 4 Players / 8 Players / 16 Players

KB: 7676.13 / -------------------------------------

KC: 4354.38 / 5805.84 / ---------------------------

Salv: 12994.88 / 17326.5 / 34653 / 69306

 

Now, this 15s time window is not necessarily fair to the Sage, because it requires a second cast that gets clipped. We can look at it different ways. Compare a single cast:

 

3 Players / 4 Players / 8 Players / 16 Players

KB (cost 16%): 2476.17 / ----------/-------------/--------------

KC (cost 30%): 4354.38 / 5805.84 / -------------/--------------

Sa (cost 16%): 8663.25 / 11551 / 23102 / 46204

 

Since those are very different time windows (1 cast,instantly applied, 15s HoT, 10s HoT) we can look at a fight window where, over some period, 30s of total AoE healing are needed. That is exactly 5 KB, 2 KC, or 3 Salv.

 

3 Players / 4 Players / 8 Players / 16 Players

KB : 12380.85 / ----------/-------------/--------------

KC : 8708.76 / 11611.68 / -------------/--------------

Sa : 25989.75 / 34653 / 69306 / 138612

 

For nearly double the resource cost, Scoundrels have to hit all 4 targets to heal for the same amount as Troopers heal 3 targets, which also means the Troopers 3 players will be at higher health percentages (although that 4th guy is screwed). In a vacuum that trade-off would seem fair, if they were the same price. one more target for less healing per target is a debate where both sides might envy the other, and if that's not how we define balance in an MMO, I don't know what is.

 

However, this comparison is not existing in a vacuum, and there is another party present, with the same resource cost and nearly the same cast time as the Commando....the Sage. The price that the Sage pays is not being able to move while casting the AoE, for 1.6-2s depending on Alacrity values. The return on investment for that lack of mobility: they heal 3 targets for double what a Commando can do, 4 targets for 3 times what a Scoundrel can do, and they can go on to do an amazing 4620HPS if their 16 man Op all groups up for AoE, compared to a max AoE HPS of 412 for a Commando and 387.056 for a Scoundrel.

 

This is the power of a lack of Player Limits, and many encounters are balanced around having this much AoE capability. With the limits in place, there is simply no way a Commando or Scoundrel can match that power. This is not a call to nerf Sages. Fights are designed assuming an Ops group has this capability. Raise the others up so they can compete. Reduce KC cost to 15 Energy, and remove player limits from KC and KB.

[Brakner]

I don’t understand all the hate for Kolto Missile, its not an “OMG” power but its not that bad. Mine does and average of 1000 - 1200 with up to 2400 crit, I can cast almost 3 of these in the same time a Sorc can cast one Revivication. Issue? Edited February 9, 2012 by Brakner

[Dartagon]

Funny I should stumble upon this topic, I was just posting about similar issues in the Healer forum. You Mercs should come visit us some time. We have a nice Commando Healing guide, a Healer Change Request Compilation for all classes, and gluten-free snacks.

 

Personally, I think the classes should be as different as possible, while still being able to accomplish the same tasks. There are guilds out there who only take Troopers, as an RP issue, and balancing fights around assuming a Sage/Sorc is in the group greatly limits player freedom. And it is currently assumed that there is a Sage/Sorc, the other classes don't get close. Here is the math, based on the coefficients and modifiers from Torhead for each of the AoE abilities, and using the bonus healing I currently have.

 

And please note at the beginning that I have no desire to see a Sage/Sorc nerf. Content is balanced around their AoE capability, the other classes need to be able to bring that same capability to the table so Merc/Merc, Op/Op, and Merc/Op runs are competitve with Sorc/X and Sorc/Sorc.

 

Let's make sure we all agree on the details of the abilities:

 

Sage:

Salvation

Cost 100 Force (out of 500/600 max)

Cooldown 15s

Cast Time 2s

Radius: 8m

Player Limit (no limit)

HoT (10s, 1s tick rate)

Average Base Heal: 134.615

Coefficient: 0.376

 

Commando:

Kolto Bomb

Cost 2 Ammo (out of 12, max regen zone is 8-12)

Cooldown 6s

Cast Time Instant

Radius 8m

Player Limit 3

Initial Heal, applies 5% healing buff (15s). During SCC, applies 10% DR Shield (15s)

Average Base Heal: 382.59

Coefficient: 1.08

 

Scoundrel:

Kolto Cloud

Cost 30 Energy (out of 100, max regen zone is 60-100)

Cooldown 12s

Cast Time Instant

Radius 10m

Player Limit 4

HoT only (15s, 3s tick rate)

Average Base Heal 132.032

Coefficient 0.386

 

The coefficients are multiplied by your Bonus Healing, which, assuming that is equal between classes in given gear, gives a sense of how well they scale. Coefficients on HoTs are always small, you need to multiply them by the number of ticks to compare to a non-HoT.

 

For the sake of comparison, let's look at a 15 second window. KC and Salv have 12 second cooldowns, so they can be cast a second time at t=12, but KC won't be because it lasts 15s and doesn't stack. Salv will be, but only the first 3 ticks of the second heal will be considered. KB will be tossed 3 times, at t=0, t=6, and t=12. At each time we will examine a case of 3 , 4, 8, 16 players. I currently have ~410 Bonus Healing, so that is the number I will use.

 

First, lets compare costs. Salv and KB both cost 16.6% of max resources, compared to 30% for KC. The more forgiving regen of Commandos probably renders the EC of KB to be slightly cheaper than Salv.

 

KB and KC are both instant, therefore take 1.5s fixed time to cast, and can be cast on the run. Salv is 2s, but with the levels of Alacrity on this tier of gear that is easily down to around 1.6s, although still requires them to stand still.

 

So far we have seen that Commandos have the most limited AoE, Scoundrels have the most expensive, and Sages must stand still for 1.6-2 seconds. What are the returns for these tradeoffs?

 

Salvation: Average Heal per person per tick = 134.615 + 0.376*410 = 288.775

Kolto Bomb: Average Heal per person = 382.59 +1.08*410 = 825.39 (866.66 on casts 2 and 3)

Kolto Cloud: Average Heal per person per tick = 132.032 + 0.386*410 = 290.292

 

Over 15 seconds:

3 Players / 4 Players / 8 Players / 16 Players

KB: 7676.13 / -------------------------------------

KC: 4354.38 / 5805.84 / ---------------------------

Salv: 12994.88 / 17326.5 / 34653 / 69306

 

Now, this 15s time window is not necessarily fair to the Sage, because it requires a second cast that gets clipped. We can look at it different ways. Compare a single cast:

 

3 Players / 4 Players / 8 Players / 16 Players

KB (cost 16%): 2476.17 / ----------/-------------/--------------

KC (cost 30%): 4354.38 / 5805.84 / -------------/--------------

Sa (cost 16%): 8663.25 / 11551 / 23102 / 46204

 

Since those are very different time windows (1 cast,instantly applied, 15s HoT, 10s HoT) we can look at a fight window where, over some period, 30s of total AoE healing are needed. That is exactly 5 KB, 2 KC, or 3 Salv.

 

3 Players / 4 Players / 8 Players / 16 Players

KB : 12380.85 / ----------/-------------/--------------

KC : 8708.76 / 11611.68 / -------------/--------------

Sa : 25989.75 / 34653 / 69306 / 138612

 

For nearly double the resource cost, Scoundrels have to hit all 4 targets to heal for the same amount as Troopers heal 3 targets, which also means the Troopers 3 players will be at higher health percentages (although that 4th guy is screwed). In a vacuum that trade-off would seem fair, if they were the same price. one more target for less healing per target is a debate where both sides might envy the other, and if that's not how we define balance in an MMO, I don't know what is.

 

However, this comparison is not existing in a vacuum, and there is another party present, with the same resource cost and nearly the same cast time as the Commando....the Sage. The price that the Sage pays is not being able to move while casting the AoE, for 1.6-2s depending on Alacrity values. The return on investment for that lack of mobility: they heal 3 targets for double what a Commando can do, 4 targets for 3 times what a Scoundrel can do, and they can go on to do an amazing 4620HPS if their 16 man Op all groups up for AoE, compared to a max AoE HPS of 412 for a Commando and 387.056 for a Scoundrel.

 

This is the power of a lack of Player Limits, and many encounters are balanced around having this much AoE capability. With the limits in place, there is simply no way a Commando or Scoundrel can match that power. This is not a call to nerf Sages. Fights are designed assuming an Ops group has this capability. Raise the others up so they can compete. Reduce KC cost to 15 Energy, and remove player limits from KC and KB.

 

This is a long post to equate to nothing more then paper and pen playing in ideal situation where everyone is standing still. The major drawback is that everyone has to be grouped up on the AoE, this in itself is the fundamental flaw of your calculation.

 

Bench testing and actual applications are completely two different things.

 

None of the fights currently in production require high amounts of AoE unless your OPs is doing it wrong or missing some mechanic.

 

It's a nice to have, not a need to have.

[TempestasSilva]

I'd like to have a healing meter just so that I can start showing some numbers and calling people on their BS.

 

Wouldn't we all. Its probably a double edged sword...it would shut some people up but cause others to whine more. Sometimes ignorance is bliss.

 

But seriously though...like why are we the only AC out of 8 to not get a true interrupt? Why are we the only AC with a healing tree that doesnt get a combat rez? Because Arsenal would be too powerful with an interrupt and rez? We don't NEED them, but why are we missing them? It just makes no sense to me. Its not the end of the world, and I honestly don't care if it gets fixed...but come on. Just admit it was an oversight. Those are my two biggest utility gripes, though I admit I am jealous of stealth and the whole yank someone and lower their threat thing.

[RuQu]

This is a long post to equate to nothing more then paper and pen playing in ideal situation where everyone is standing still. The major drawback is that everyone has to be grouped up on the AoE, this in itself is the fundamental flaw of your calculation.

 

Bench testing and actual applications are completely two different things.

 

None of the fights currently in production require high amounts of AoE unless your OPs is doing it wrong or missing some mechanic.

 

It's a nice to have, not a need to have.

 

They aren't all apples, which is why I do the comparison 3 different ways. That text was copied from a post on the healer forum, not from the Commando or Merc.

 

The final field simply says 30 seconds of AoE need to happen at any point during the fight, they don't have to be contiguous periods. That requires 5 KBs, 2 KCs, or 3 Salvs.

 

I also list the numbers for 3 people, 4, 8, and 16. While the huge numbers at 16 do require an entire Op to group up, the numbers also show that the Sage/Sorc AoE outheals Commandos/Mercs for only 3 people (double in fact) and Scoundrel/Operative for their 4 target limit (3x!).

 

Let's look at those assumptions:

1) AoE healing is needed for 30s (the least common multiple of the 3 cooldowns/durations). Reasonable.

2) 3 People are standing near each other. Reasonable.

 

That's it. Dismiss it because it isn't based on a combat log if you like, but since there is no combat log, you are saying that there is no way to convince you to deviate from an opinion based only on your feelings.

 

The coefficients are modifiers are all correct, the theory-crafting on how to apply them is done and straightforward, those values are the average (non-crit) values you will see in game. Obviously, I'm not going to model all of the ability specific surge and crit skills that are scattered in 3 AC's worth of skill trees, but the non-crit values are so clearly non-close that no amount of crit/surge will change that.

[Dartagon]

Wouldn't we all. Its probably a double edged sword...it would shut some people up but cause others to whine more. Sometimes ignorance is bliss.

 

But seriously though...like why are we the only AC out of 8 to not get a true interrupt? Why are we the only AC with a healing tree that doesnt get a combat rez? Because Arsenal would be too powerful with an interrupt and rez? We don't NEED them, but why are we missing them? It just makes no sense to me. Its not the end of the world, and I honestly don't care if it gets fixed...but come on. Just admit it was an oversight. Those are my two biggest utility gripes, though I admit I am jealous of stealth and the whole yank someone and lower their threat thing.

 

I think if we had them it would just be way to easy to run 2 BH and screw the rest

 

But seriously, I'm kind of happy it is the way it is.

 

It allows for two things.

1. Focus on healing

2. Focus on dispelling. Too many people play without using cure. Probably the most under appreciated BH tool.

[Dartagon]

They aren't all apples, which is why I do the comparison 3 different ways. That text was copied from a post on the healer forum, not from the Commando or Merc.

 

The final field simply says 30 seconds of AoE need to happen at any point during the fight, they don't have to be contiguous periods. That requires 5 KBs, 2 KCs, or 3 Salvs.

 

I also list the numbers for 3 people, 4, 8, and 16. While the huge numbers at 16 do require an entire Op to group up, the numbers also show that the Sage/Sorc AoE outheals Commandos/Mercs for only 3 people (double in fact) and Scoundrel/Operative for their 4 target limit (3x!).

 

Let's look at those assumptions:

1) AoE healing is needed for 30s (the least common multiple of the 3 cooldowns/durations). Reasonable.

2) 3 People are standing near each other. Reasonable.

 

That's it. Dismiss it because it isn't based on a combat log if you like, but since there is no combat log, you are saying that there is no way to convince you to deviate from an opinion based only on your feelings.

 

The coefficients are modifiers are all correct, the theory-crafting on how to apply them is done and straightforward, those values are the average (non-crit) values you will see in game. Obviously, I'm not going to model all of the ability specific surge and crit skills that are scattered in 3 AC's worth of skill trees, but the non-crit values are so clearly non-close that no amount of crit/surge will change that.

 

Thus is the reason I say that the pen and paper game is good an all, but at the end of the day it's what happens in game that counts. Theory crafting is all good and dandy, however, I think what we will see is a lot of encounters that require movement. Yeah I can agree there are some phases where people group up, that being said, before those people group up I could have tagged them w/ a kolto missle before ever reaching the AoE heal the sorc dropped.

 

There are just too many game mechanics that can flaw your mathematically viewpoint that you posted.

 

I'm not saying that sorcs don't AoE heal better then us on paper. All I'm saying is that in pratical application, the Kolto missile a very viable tool because of the ability to cast it WHILE moving as opposed to stationary.

[RuQu]

Thus is the reason I say that the pen and paper game is good an all, but at the end of the day it's what happens in game that counts. Theory crafting is all good and dandy, however, I think what we will see is a lot of encounters that require movement. Yeah I can agree there are some phases where people group up, that being said, before those people group up I could have tagged them w/ a kolto missle before ever reaching the AoE heal the sorc dropped.

 

There are just too many game mechanics that can flaw your mathematically viewpoint that you posted.

 

I'm not saying that sorcs don't AoE heal better then us on paper. All I'm saying is that in pratical application, the Kolto missile a very viable tool because of the ability to cast it WHILE moving as opposed to stationary.

 

And I'm not saying Kolto Bomb/Missile is terrible. The shield is wonderfully powerful. I'm also not talking exclusively about BH vs Sorc.

 

Look at Regenerative Nanotech / Kolto Cloud for Ops/Scoundrels. It heals 4 people for 1/3 of the healing done by Sage/Sorc, but the Sage/Sorc spends only 83% of the resources spent by the Scoundrel, as a percentage of total resources. That is 3.61 times greater efficiency, for the tradeoff of standing still for 1.6 seconds. Does the mobility compensate that huge efficiency and throughput loss? Similarly, they heal 3 people for twice what a Merc can, for 60% of the resource cost, which is 3.33 times more efficient. Does the shield and 1.6s of mobility compensate that throughput and efficiency loss?

 

And that is just on 3/4 people. Obviously, Sages keep scaling to 5-16 people.

 

I don't want us all to have the same cookie-cutter abilities, but the player limit is highly limiting, above and beyond what is reasonable. If you read the entire long post, you would see that the the Agent AoE costs twice what it should, and if you corrected that and removed player caps the Sage/Sorc would still be the #1 AoE healer by a long shot but at least the other two would scale up properly in groups and you could argue the balance of the mobility trade-off, HoT duration, shields, and throughput.

[Dartagon]

And I'm not saying Kolto Bomb/Missile is terrible. The shield is wonderfully powerful. I'm also not talking exclusively about BH vs Sorc.

 

Look at Regenerative Nanotech / Kolto Cloud for Ops/Scoundrels. It heals 4 people for 1/3 of the healing done by Sage/Sorc, but the Sage/Sorc spends only 83% of the resources spent by the Scoundrel, as a percentage of total resources. That is 3.61 times greater efficiency, for the tradeoff of standing still for 1.6 seconds. Does the mobility compensate that huge efficiency and throughput loss? Similarly, they heal 3 people for twice what a Merc can, for 60% of the resource cost, which is 3.33 times more efficient. Does the shield and 1.6s of mobility compensate that throughput and efficiency loss?

 

And that is just on 3/4 people. Obviously, Sages keep scaling to 5-16 people.

 

I don't want us all to have the same cookie-cutter abilities, but the player limit is highly limiting, above and beyond what is reasonable. If you read the entire long post, you would see that the the Agent AoE costs twice what it should, and if you corrected that and removed player caps the Sage/Sorc would still be the #1 AoE healer by a long shot but at least the other two would scale up properly in groups and you could argue the balance of the mobility trade-off, HoT duration, shields, and throughput.

 

Again the comparison is on the basis that there is no movement and everyone is standing still for the entire duration.

 

Mobility doesn't have a statistical value that you can put on it. Example: Sorc drops AoE, boss drops AoE on Sorc AoE.

 

Total AoE Healing = 0. Nobody is in range. Meanwhile, BH casted two kolto missles that hit 3 people while they were moving out of the AoE the boss dropped.

 

It's just anybodies guess right now w/o empirical data to make a comparison of who is more efficient at what. Sure if you are looking at a pure numbers perspective.

 

How much AoE healing can a sorc do while moving?

 

How much AoE Healing can a BH do while moving?

 

How much AoE healing can an OP do while moving?

Edited February 9, 2012 by Dartagon

[RuQu]

Again the comparison is on the basis that there is no movement and everyone is standing still for the entire duration.

 

Mobility doesn't have a statistical value that you can put on it. Example: Sorc drops AoE, boss drops AoE on Sorc AoE.

 

Total AoE Healing = 0. Nobody is in range. Meanwhile, BH casted two kolto missles that hit 3 people while they were moving out of the AoE the boss dropped.

 

It's just anybodies guess right now w/o empirical data to make a comparison of who is more efficient at what. Sure if you are looking at a pure numbers perspective.

 

How much AoE healing can a sorc do while moving?

 

How much AoE Healing can a BH do while moving?

 

How much AoE healing can an OP do while moving?

 

None of my assumptions require standing still for 30 seconds in a row. To maximize healing a Sorc requires that the group stand still for 10seconds. Since they do, on 3 targets, double the AoE healing of a Merc, they reach parity if 3 people stand still for 5 seconds. To match an Operative healing 4 people, the 4 only have to stand still for 3.33 seconds. Once you exceed those limits the numbers get even more wildly in their favor. If you can get the entire Op to stand in one place for 1 second you have done double the healing that a Merc can do, albeit for less per person. If you can get 16 people to stand still for 3 seconds, you have done 5.77 times what a Merc can do with a single KM, and each individual has been healed for more than those 3 the Merc healed (parity ~2.85sec). And that is with my less than ideal gear. The coefficients make Sorc AoE scale faster than Commando so the gap will widen as gear improves.

 

I completely agree that there should be some tradeoffs for mobility, but that tradeoff should come in balancing the healing/DR of the abilities. The player limit caps prevent any semblance of balance from even being possible. To keep the caps and make Merc or Agent instant AoE reach even 75-85% of the Sorc AoE in a 16 man would make it so insanely powerful as to be not even worth seriously discussing (would require huge heals on those 3-4, would probably outshine any single target heal).

 

The only way to balance them, even if we accept that they won't be equally powerful (and I don't think they should be) is to remove the player caps. Then, Mercs would simply do 50% of the AoE Sorcs can do at all size of groups, instead of 10%-50% when scaling from 16-3 players hit by the Sorc. Then we could argue about whether 50% is balanced when compared to our Kolto Residue, the AoE DR shield during SCC, and the mobility.

Edited February 9, 2012 by RuQu

[Dartagon]

None of my assumptions require standing still for 30 seconds in a row. To maximize healing a Sorc requires that the group stand still for 10seconds. Since they do, on 3 targets, double the AoE healing of a Merc, they reach parity if 3 people stand still for 5 seconds. To match an Operative healing 4 people, the 4 only have to stand still for 3.33 seconds. Once you exceed those limits the numbers get even more wildly in their favor. If you can get the entire Op to stand in one place for 1 second you have done double the healing that a Merc can do, albeit for less per person. If you can get 16 people to stand still for 3 seconds, you have done 5.77 times what a Merc can do with a single KM, and each individual has been healed for more than those 3 the Merc healed (parity ~2.85sec). And that is with my less than ideal gear. The coefficients make Sorc AoE scale faster than Commando so the gap will widen as gear improves.

 

I completely agree that there should be some tradeoffs for mobility, but that tradeoff should come in balancing the healing/DR of the abilities. The player limit caps prevent any semblance of balance from even being possible. To keep the caps and make Merc or Agent instant AoE reach even 75-85% of the Sorc AoE in a 16 man would make it so insanely powerful as to be not even worth seriously discussing (would require huge heals on those 3-4, would probably outshine any single target heal). The only way to balance them, even if we accept that they won't be equally powerful (and I don't think they should be) is to remove the player caps.

 

I guess the next assumption is that everyone in the Ops would need the healing. So although Sorcs = the highest potential, that may not equal out to the best.

 

Edited February 9, 2012 by Dartagon

[RuQu]

I guess the next assumption is that everyone in the Ops would need the healing.

 

To counter, I assumed that the Merc/Agent heal actually hit people who needed it instead of healing already full people like it sometimes does due to not smart healing.

 

When comparing healing, the most fundamental assumption is that people need it.

 

I also edited in a paragraph while you were replying to my last:

The only way to balance them, even if we accept that they won't be equally powerful (and I don't think they should be) is to remove the player caps. Then, Mercs would simply do 50% of the AoE Sorcs can do at all size of groups, instead of 10%-50% when scaling from 16-3 players hit by the Sorc. Then we could argue about whether 50% is balanced when compared to our Kolto Residue, the AoE DR shield during SCC, and the mobility.

[Dartagon]

To counter, I assumed that the Merc/Agent heal actually hit people who needed it instead of healing already full people like it sometimes does due to not smart healing.

 

When comparing healing, the most fundamental assumption is that people need it.

 

I also edited in a paragraph while you were replying to my last:

 

 

The only problem I see with removing the cap is they would have to rework the ops. An example is the constant AoE damage you take from the SoA floor drop. You would completely negate the need for the sorc to "standstill" heal at the end with a BH continously kolto missle'ing during the drops.

 

That's the hardest thing to balance, all the movement that is required in some fights. Even during Gharjs knockback, I can cast a missle when I land, and when people are grouping up causing massive overheal for the sorc.

 

It would be pretty game breaking.

[TempestasSilva]

RuQu, thanks for stopping by with some numbers. I am bad at numbers but I will try some napkin math.

 

There is another part of this equation that I think is often overlooked.

 

Previously you compared our resource cost to being similar to a sorc, but our resource is not heat as so many seem to think. Our resource is really heat dissipation. (ammo regeneration)

 

During 30 seconds the Sorc has cast 2 times and the BH 5 times. We already know that in total healing the Sorc blew the doors off us. But it gets worse.

 

The Sorc has used 200 mana and regen'ed 240 (8/sec).

The BH(Commando) has used 80 heat and regen'ed 150 (5/sec).

 

Well that looks pretty darned good,

But its actually worse than that, because neither of them sat on their butt, they cast more spells. The BH started off with 30 heat and the 16 heat put him at 36 heat. Now he is above 40 heat diminishing his dissipation to at least 3/sec meaning he only regen'ed 90. Or maybe there was some burst needed and it dropped to 2/sec and he only regen'ed 60.

 

So to say that the resource cost is comparable between the 2 classes is not fair either.

 

We agree there, I just think the disparity is worse than even your numbers show.

 

However, I don't think this is the answer:

"Raise the others up so they can compete. Reduce KC cost to 15 Energy, and remove player limits from KC and KB."

 

Thats trying to make our AoE healing equal theirs. Then are you going to buff their single target to match ours? Now the only differences between healers are animations? No thanks.

 

They can be the AoE kings. Just buff ours a bit.

[RuQu]

The only problem I see with removing the cap is they would have to rework the ops. An example is the constant AoE damage you take from the SoA floor drop. You would completely negate the need for the sorc to "standstill" heal at the end with a BH continously kolto missle'ing during the drops.

 

That's the hardest thing to balance, all the movement that is required in some fights. Even during Gharjs knockback, I can cast a missle when I land, and when people are grouping up causing massive overheal for the sorc.

 

It would be pretty game breaking.

 

Not really, as it stands we heal for 50% of a Sorc on 3 people.

 

So you have a Merc/Merc group, the two of you toss out missiles on the run, group gets to the other side fine.

 

You have a Merc/Sorc group, you toss out a missile on the run, group gets there with half the damage they would have, Sorc heals them up.

 

Merc/Op, you pull the health up, the Op AoE HoT keeps it ticking higher.

 

Sorc/Sorc, they may get to the destination at a lower health, but when they both drop their circle, the health rockets up. Hell, your missile now is nice, but that overhealing you are talking about only applies to 3 people. The other 5-13 now are in exactly the situation of an all Sorc run after this change.

[Dartagon]

Not really, as it stands we heal for 50% of a Sorc on 3 people.

 

So you have a Merc/Merc group, the two of you toss out missiles on the run, group gets to the other side fine.

 

You have a Merc/Sorc group, you toss out a missile on the run, group gets there with half the damage they would have, Sorc heals them up.

 

Merc/Op, you pull the health up, the Op AoE HoT keeps it ticking higher.

 

Sorc/Sorc, they may get to the destination at a lower health, but when they both drop their circle, the health rockets up. Hell, your missile now is nice, but that overhealing you are talking about only applies to 3 people. The other 5-13 now are in exactly the situation of an all Sorc run after this change.

 

Under the assumption that you only have time to cast 1 missle. Further, if you remove the cap. The whole raid would potentially get to the destination with more health, negating the potential healing the sorc can do. When our healing potentially goes up, the sorcs goes down.

 

Which makes it so hard to balance both classes with the current content.

[RuQu]

RuQu, thanks for stopping by with some numbers. I am bad at numbers but I will try some napkin math.

 

There is another part of this equation that I think is often overlooked.

 

Previously you compared our resource cost to being similar to a sorc, but our resource is not heat as so many seem to think. Our resource is really heat dissipation. (ammo regeneration)

 

During 30 seconds the Sorc has cast 2 times and the BH 5 times. We already know that in total healing the Sorc blew the doors off us. But it gets worse.

 

The Sorc has used 200 mana and regen'ed 240 (8/sec).

The BH(Commando) has used 80 heat and regen'ed 150 (5/sec).

 

Well that looks pretty darned good,

But its actually worse than that, because neither of them sat on their butt, they cast more spells. The BH started off with 30 heat and the 16 heat put him at 36 heat. Now he is above 40 heat diminishing his dissipation to at least 3/sec meaning he only regen'ed 90. Or maybe there was some burst needed and it dropped to 2/sec and he only regen'ed 60.

 

So to say that the resource cost is comparable between the 2 classes is not fair either.

 

We agree there, I just think the disparity is worse than even your numbers show.

 

However, I don't think this is the answer:

"Raise the others up so they can compete. Reduce KC cost to 15 Energy, and remove player limits from KC and KB."

 

Thats trying to make our AoE healing equal theirs. Then are you going to buff their single target to match ours? Now the only differences between healers are animations? No thanks.

 

They can be the AoE kings. Just buff ours a bit.

 

Your resource math is correct, if we needed 30 seconds of AoE in a row. I allowed that it was simply during the fight at some point. Yes, if there is 30 seconds of burst AoE, they will blow us out of the water, but if there is only a single short pulse followed by the need to move, we can handle that well with our instant heal while people can't stand in their circle. I try and compare everyone operating in the situation that lets them perform the best. Certain fights will always tend to prefer one style over another. Low mobility favors people with cast times, high those with instants.

 

If you simply remove the caps, they will heal for twice what a Merc does, regardless of group size, and 3 times what an Operative does. For that, the Operative cost is roughly double, while Merc/Sorc are roughly the same. With differing regen mechanics, getting exactly the same price is not possible (what if you cast KM while not in max heat dissipation? It now costs more, but Sorc regen is always the same...). All we can do is get them close, and for that RN needs to cost 15 Energy, not 30.

 

Sorcs would still be the kings of AoE, doing double a Merc and triple an Operative in ideal conditions for their respective classes(though I think perhaps it should be reversed since we add a shield and buff and Operatives do not), but they wouldn't blow everyone else completely out of the water in Ops groups. This advantage compensates them for the need for their targets to stand still, and their personal cast time.

 

I'm not asking for equal AoE, I'm asking to be able to choose not to bring a Sage without massively gimping the group, while not nerfing Sages.

[RuQu]

Under the assumption that you only have time to cast 1 missle. Further, if you remove the cap. The whole raid would potentially get to the destination with more health, negating the potential healing the sorc can do. When our healing potentially goes up, the sorcs goes down.

 

Which makes it so hard to balance both classes with the current content.

 

You aren't healing alone. If you save them 100 Force, they should thank you, not complain. The problem is that currently you are crazy if you don't take a Sorc/Sage, and in 8 man content that means making one of your healers who wanted to play a Merc or Op reroll (probably the Op).

 

As in my last post, it's about freeing up the competitive healer combos, and making combos that don't include Sorc viable. If you get off two KMs and that's all the group needed, congrats, the Sorc can go back to blowing bubbles all over the place or whatever it is they do. You didn't nerf them, unless they then design a fight that REQUIRES instant AoE be used during a movement phase, in which case we are back where we are now with fight design forcing Operation composition. So long as you can survive that run to the Sorc circle, it doesn't matter if the raid AoE heal comes while running or at the other side.

[Daecollo]

Critical Reaction/First Responder Talents. (Mercenary/Commando.)

 

Mercenary:

"While Combat Support Cylinder is active, you have 50%(1pt)-100%(2pt) chance to Vent 8 Heat when you critically Heal, this effect can only occur once every 3.5 Seconds."

 

Commando:

"While Combat Support Cell is active, you have 50%(1pt)-100%(2pt) chance to generate 1 Ammo when you critically Heal, this effect can only occur once every 3.5 Seconds."

 

 

This would help Commando and Mercenary with the ridiculous amounts of heat and ammo they use while healing and balance them out to be more in line with sage and sorcerer.

 

Currently this is a semi-useless talent people skip/avoid, but making it like this would make it more unique and balanced to other classes talents that give them energy or force back. (because by the time you cast the next spell the alacrity is gone.)

 

 

The problem with Commando/Mercenery isn't anything other then abilities cost too much heat/ammo, this talent would fix it.

Edited February 9, 2012 by Daecollo

[RuQu]

Critical Reaction/First Responder Talents. (Mercenary/Commando.)

 

Mercenary:

"While Combat Support Cylinder is active, you have 50%(1pt)-100%(2pt) chance to Vent 8 Heat when you critically Heal, this effect can only occur once every 3.5 Seconds."

 

Commando:

"While Combat Support Cell is active, you have 50%(1pt)-100%(2pt) chance to generate 1 Ammo when you critically Heal, this effect can only occur once every 3.5 Seconds."

 

 

This would help Commando and Mercenary with the ridiculous amounts of heat and ammo they use while healing and balance them out to be more in line with sage and sorcerer.

 

Currently this is a semi-useless talent people skip/avoid, but making it like this would make it more unique and balanced to other classes talents that give them energy or force back. (because by the time you cast the next spell the alacrity is gone.)

 

 

The problem with Commando/Mercenery isn't anything other then abilities cost too much heat/ammo, this talent would fix it.

 

While I disagree that heat/ammo is our only problem (I'd argue our only real problem is overly limited AoE and we are otherwise pretty awesome), I can endorse this.

 

Currently we are the only healer who does not have an ability to increase regen with stats (seems to be a pattern: no interrupt, no in-combat rez, no AoE, no scaled regen).

 

Agents have Diagnostic Scan, which returns extra energy when it crits, and, because it is channeled not instant, also scales with Alacrity.

 

Sages have a skill which makes certain crits reduce the penalties on their Health-> Force conversion, making it simply a free Force return that scales with crit rating.

[Dartagon]

You aren't healing alone. If you save them 100 Force, they should thank you, not complain. The problem is that currently you are crazy if you don't take a Sorc/Sage, and in 8 man content that means making one of your healers who wanted to play a Merc or Op reroll (probably the Op).

 

As in my last post, it's about freeing up the competitive healer combos, and making combos that don't include Sorc viable. If you get off two KMs and that's all the group needed, congrats, the Sorc can go back to blowing bubbles all over the place or whatever it is they do. You didn't nerf them, unless they then design a fight that REQUIRES instant AoE be used during a movement phase, in which case we are back where we are now with fight design forcing Operation composition. So long as you can survive that run to the Sorc circle, it doesn't matter if the raid AoE heal comes while running or at the other side.

 

A BH/OP combo is already viable since BH can carry an Ops group w/ any additional class topping up the group.

 

BH/BH may be viable, haven't tried it. I only have experiences w/ BH/Sorc and BH/Operative.

[midnyt]

BIG UPDATE!

 

LADIES & GENTLEMEN, WE HAVE BEEN HEARD!

 

http://www.swtor.com/blog/community-qa-feb-17th-2012

 

We plan on improving the overall Area of Effect healing performance of the Mercenary/Commando in the next major Game Update (1.2) by increasing the number of targets affected by Kolto Missile/Kolto Bomb.

 

At least one of our issues has been heard and will be dealt with, although sadly our burst healing was nerfed slightly due to the recent surge nerf.

 

Congratulations Mercs!

Edited February 18, 2012 by midnyt

[RuQu]

BIG UPDATE!

 

LADIES & GENTLEMEN, WE HAVE BEEN HEARD!

 

http://www.swtor.com/blog/community-qa-feb-17th-2012

 

Keep in mind the context. He confirmed that there is an 8 man limit on Sage/Sorc AoE, and made no mention of raising the 4 man cap on Scoundrel AoE when discussing the changes to Kolto Cloud. His comments suggest that they consider the far lower healing (1/2 and 1/3 of sage for Commando/Scoundrel respectively) and the player caps to be compensation for the fact that Salvation has a cast time and requires people to stand in it.

 

Anticipate the KB/KM cap rising to 4, with the possibility of decreasing the healing done to match KC/RN.

 

Don't get me wrong, 4 is a needed upgrade, but setting it at 8 and having it heal for 1/2 the amount of Salv like it does now would allow us to fill the raid group heal assignment competitively. Too much ambiguity and public denial of the existence of the problem in that response to hope for any more than a 4 man cap, potentially offset by reducing the healing to match the Scoundrel 4 man AoE.