Sage/Sorc needs a nerf!!

[EternalFinality]

The massive population of sorc/sages are like an unstoppable lobby machine now. They have well known talking points like "if you cannot kill me 1v1 you need to l2p your class" and all the other nonsense they write. They are the largest player base and so can lobby for their class and theory craft about how easily they can be beaten to try and protect their overpowered status.

 

Just give up the fight and play a sorc/sage guys. If you do not want to join the ranks of the overpowered deal with it.

 

Operatives were a minority class so they were able to get nerfed but the larger population of sorc/sage class obviously have a larger community to BS in threads, troll l2p, and basically campaign to keep their class OP.

 

Seriously, and they're just parroting the same crap back and forth to each other now.

 

Sorc Talking Point 1: If you can't beat a Sorc 1v1 L2P you class nub

 

Fact: Geared Sorcs are impossible to kill 1v1. They have too many escape tools, even against multiple opponents. They won't kill you 1v1, but that's not why they are overpowered.

 

 

 

Sorc Talking Point 2: I see you guys are facing 31/31/31 Sorcs!

 

Fact: Sorcs have 2 main hybrid specs, the madness hybrid and the healing hybrid spec. Both are overpowered.

 

Fact: Sorcs become weaker in PvP if they spec 31 points in any tree. What other class can say that?

 

 

 

Sorc Talking Point 3: Bring more people, Sorcs die fast!

 

Fact: Sorcs have the most escape tools out of any class. They are extremely adept at escaping multiple people, especially melee classes.

 

Fact: Sorcs are strongest in groups.

 

 

 

Sorc Talking Point 4: Just interrupt, scrub!

 

Fact: Sorcs have stuns, roots, knockbacks, and CC to get space. They also have instant abilities. Interrupting does not cripple the class. Skilled Sorcs just use another ability.

 

 

 

Sorc Talking Point 5: I'm <some other class> and I kill Sorcs all the time!

 

Fact: You're probably a Sorc.

 

 

 

Sorc Talking Point 6: It's impossible to get 600k/200k or 300k/500k in a warzone, so Sorcs are fine. Oh and the screenshot you posted of someone who did it means everyone else sucked.

 

Fact: Warzone numbers are completely irrelevant to how imbalanced the class is.

 

 

 

Sorc Talking Point 7: Everyone only plays Sorc because of the lightning.

 

Fact: Many people rolled Sorc because it is the most powerful class.

[Luckorforever]

your shield blocks 25% static right? my shield can only go up once ever 20 seconds, and one of your abilities can take it out leaveing me with 19 seconds of no bubble, 17/16 if you have set bonus. So in theory your shield >>>>>> my bubble.

 

Also it only takes 3 tracer missiles sub 50.

 

Our shield lasts for 12 Seconds and has a cooldown of 90! seconds, while you can spam your shield every 20 seconds. And none of our abilitys can take out your shield with 1 hit.

[sithgrizley]

Not all fights start at range, the initial opening of a warzone yes, I'd agree, beyond that, anyone can jump on a ranged class and most fights are rarely 1vs1. The melee avoidance "toolkit" of a sorc comes down to : a Tier 4 Lightning talent, a Tier 3 Lightning talent, a Tier 4 Madness talent. Plus the stun and the snare that other classes can mirror to various degrees. There is only one spec or spec type that can have all of those talents. If you argue that this specific spec is powerfull and needs to be adjusted, we are in agreement.

 

Also instant whirlwinds with stuns attached, baseline knockback...

 

I suspect that the hybrid spec might be the biggest problem, and I would happy if they nerfed that spec and gave it a week or two to see if the post nerf Sorc/Sages are still abusive.

 

The vast majority of fights start at range, even if you're fighting someone and a second person joins the fight he still starts at range and has to close on you. On rare occasion you could come around a corner on Voidstar and bump into a marader, yes in those cases sucks to be you but you can still instant whirlwind and run past.

 

 

No it isn't. If non healing speced sorc is using Dark Heal, it means he is using it 95% of the time on himself and he won't be getting more than 1.5k, maybe 2k at best out of it, while depleting force rapidly. It often means he is about to die, static barrier cannot be cast due to debuff and he is trying to hide, at which point he contributes nothing to his team and if discovered he is dead. The large heal won't be talented, so it stays at 3.0 seconds. Again I repeat, that if people are so stupid as to leave a person cast a 3 second heal on himself, they do not deserve to complain.

 

Like I say, he isn't going to be doing it all the time but he can heal the ball carrier, throw a heal on someone who is being focused or just run behind a pillar and heal real quick while the ranged he is duelling moves to reestablish los. Being that I have a Merc I play in PVP I do know you can sneak in the big heals by using los, it's extremely difficult to do without overheating as a merc thanks to the way heat works but sometimes hp are more important than adding more damage.

 

 

 

Not sure about your server, on mine the total number of sorcs/sages that PvP on a consistent basis is more or less the same. The only tweaks that are needed is a small reshuffling of 2 maybe 3 talents.

 

On mine the number started extremely high, probably because of a premade team that from day 1 was 1 Jedi Knight tank and the rest all a mix of healing and hybrid spec Sages. It's an extremely annoying team to play against, so it probably contributed to the number of Sorcs in pvp on the empire side which just started the stacking Sage/Sorc cycle. The problem is they have no real counters and stack better than any class in the game. A group of 5 Sorcs standing in a group is effectively completely immune to melee, their knockbacks will cooldown faster than enemies can close from the knockback. No melee range, no interrupts, no interrupts, immortal Sages dealing very solid damage.

 

 

 

Depends on the TM. About an hour ago, I had one on me that would consistently crit for 3k and guess what ? I was his most important target. He killed me a couple of times, I killed him a couple of times. Problem ? Not really. Last but not least, I would like to see the gear that offer a very high surge rating on sorcs, while at the same time keeping a reasonable level of expertise (if we are talking about mixing PvE pieces in). The real problem with lighting/TK throw is that energy/kinetic damage is mitigated by armor. Other than the wrath proc, people would mostly use it because of the snare, rather than the damage. This is only annoying for Madness and/or Madness/Lightning hybrids and no contrary to popular belief not all sorcs are hybrids and to be perfectly honest, most that are, have no idea how to play properly (you'd be surprised really).

 

Like I say, he can if he max stacks crit get about a 45% crit assuming he is wearing PvE gear, in PvP gear it will be about 30% max. I know that's very respectable damage and it's close to a fair fight if you both just spam ranged attacks on a flat plain, but the longer the fight runs the more it swings in your favor and you have all sorts of counterplay that he can't match. He shields? You whirlwind and heal to full, rebubble and open up again, now his defensive cooldown is gone for the fight and you have at least 1 more bubble coming. The only chance he has to heal is if he can break LoS or use his stun and you decide not to break. You have your stun, whirlwind, the ability to break LoS far more easily with force speed, slows etc. In a pure numbers trading game it's fine, if it's not pure trading a Sorc just has a bunch of extra tools.

 

Oddly the PvP gear probably isn't the way to go. If you look at it, if you can replace the Expertise with equivalent values of hp/surge/power you come out far ahead of the 13% Expertise can give you. I'm not sure that's intended and likely would be looked at later, but in any case, it's not hard to get a 80-100% crit bonus. Which means back to back full crit lightnings followed up by a Shock. If all those crit that's very very bad news. I've had Sorcs instant Whirlwind, Lightning, Lightning, Shock and nearly 100% to 0 without me having control of my character for more than a second or two. That strikes me as fairly abusive, I'm sure mercs would get plenty of tears if they could use a stun, TM,TM,HS, Rail combo on people. They cry bad enough about TM TM TM TM TM TM.

[Darth_Philar]

Seriously, and they're just parroting the same crap back and forth to each other now.

 

Sorc Talking Point 1: If you can't beat a Sorc 1v1 L2P you class nub

 

Fact: Geared Sorcs are impossible to kill 1v1. They have too many escape tools, even against multiple opponents. They won't kill you 1v1, but that's not why they are overpowered.

 

 

 

Sorc Talking Point 2: I see you guys are facing 31/31/31 Sorcs!

 

Fact: Sorcs have 2 main hybrid specs, the madness hybrid and the healing hybrid spec. Both are overpowered.

 

Fact: Sorcs become weaker in PvP if they spec 31 points in any tree. What other class can say that?

 

 

 

Sorc Talking Point 3: Bring more people, Sorcs die fast!

 

Fact: Sorcs have the most escape tools out of any class. They are extremely adept at escaping multiple people, especially melee classes.

 

Fact: Sorcs are strongest in groups.

 

 

 

Sorc Talking Point 4: Just interrupt, scrub!

 

Fact: Sorcs have stuns, roots, knockbacks, and CC to get space. They also have instant abilities. Interrupting does not cripple the class. Skilled Sorcs just use another ability.

 

 

 

Sorc Talking Point 5: I'm <some other class> and I kill Sorcs all the time!

 

Fact: You're probably a Sorc.

 

 

 

Sorc Talking Point 6: It's impossible to get 600k/200k or 300k/500k in a warzone, so Sorcs are fine. Oh and the screenshot you posted of someone who did it means everyone else sucked.

 

Fact: Warzone numbers are completely irrelevant to how imbalanced the class is.

 

 

 

Sorc Talking Point 7: Everyone only plays Sorc because of the lightning.

 

Fact: Many people rolled Sorc because it is the most powerful class.

 

I'm not sure if you know this or not, so I decided to link for you:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fact

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion

 

You may want to read these over and then edit your post to reflect the correct terminology.

[sithgrizley]

Ur just playing agasint the good players, when it comes down to it, i can probably faceroll you with all classes, and u can whine about all the classes, " funny thing is, ppl mention 4-5 sorcerers??? have u ever experienced 4-5 operatives?? they will kill the sorcerers faster than u can say nerf? THIS GAME IS A TACTICAL GAME and if u roamed with ****players to bad. WE Sages just gotta accept that a Assasin tank can faceroll os, an operative can faceroll us, a bounthunter can faceroll us if we have no poles or corners to kite on, a sniper can faceroll us, if we have no corners or poles to dance on, SO QUIT UR DAMN NERFBAT THREADS jesus christ.

 

PLAY A SAGE and get tunneled by marauders/juggernauts ggg... or force pushed out the bridge in the Void, all maps have their + - for each class.

 

If you get facerolled by assassin tanks as a sorc you're a fairly terrible player.

 

The only way that happens is if you use none of your cooldowns and he uses all his.

 

You do realize that all of your abilities completely ignore his defense, his shield and some of them even his armor. I play a darkness assassin and against very bad sages/sorcs I can just stomp, against a good sorc sage I just can't stay in melee to interrupt enough.

 

Also, 4-5 sorcs stack MUCH better than 4-5 operatives. I'm pretty sure that by using nothing but overload and lightning 5 sorcs could kill 5 operatives. They jump you, knockback. Zap zap zap, they close again. Knockback, zap zap zap. They close yet again, knockback. Zap zap zap.

[EternalFinality]

I'm not sure if you know this or not, so I decided to link for you:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fact

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion

 

You may want to read these over and then edit your post to reflect the correct terminology.

 

Everything I posted is true, which is why they are facts.

[TetraCleric]

Everything I posted is true, which is why they are facts.

 

Except it isn't true. So there's that.

[Cruxe]

Our shield lasts for 12 Seconds and has a cooldown of 90! seconds, while you can spam your shield every 20 seconds. And none of our abilitys can take out your shield with 1 hit.

 

 

Hmm, I can crit a sage/sorc shield down in one Grav Round. *shrug*

[EternalFinality]

Except it isn't true. So there's that.

 

Riveting post, filled to the brim with information. Would read again.

Edited February 7, 2012 by EternalFinality

[Drack]

If you get facerolled by assassin tanks as a sorc you're a fairly terrible player.

 

The only way that happens is if you use none of your cooldowns and he uses all his.

 

You do realize that all of your abilities completely ignore his defense, his shield and some of them even his armor. I play a darkness assassin and against very bad sages/sorcs I can just stomp, against a good sorc sage I just can't stay in melee to interrupt enough.

 

Also, 4-5 sorcs stack MUCH better than 4-5 operatives. I'm pretty sure that by using nothing but overload and lightning 5 sorcs could kill 5 operatives. They jump you, knockback. Zap zap zap, they close again. Knockback, zap zap zap. They close yet again, knockback. Zap zap zap.

 

I got crittet by an assasin tank today for 4400 =) I know he was a tank because he pulled me in when I used force speed =) No way to escape them as a sorc, and they hit harder than out highest burst, go figure =)

[TetraCleric]

Riveting post, filled to the brim with information. Would read again.

 

I could write it out, I could take the time to prove why you're wrong, but you won't believe me. You'll point out that I play a Sorc, so obviously I just don't want anything to happen to my class. Then you'll probably try to tell me I must just be bad. So I'll save myself some time, and just tell you that you're wrong, and let you do your own actual research (IE, not reading these forums).

[jizerai]

You haven't faced a full Battlemaster dps SI have you?

 

I've also been hit by a Sages Pebble throw crap for over 3k a tick.

 

SI/Sages don't get 400k-500k and lead dps in pvp every match for not doing high dps.

 

3k a tick you say? Wow. I'm lucky if I get 1k a tick. That guy must be wearing two suites of gear, because what you're saying is that he's doing 12k damage? That's .. impressive, considering I'm full Champion and the difference between the two sets are what? 5-10%?

 

They also don't do 400k-500k damage every match. They usually get to 150k-200k, depending on the warzone and intensity of the fighting. AoE-star is usually an exception, with maybe double the damage numbers.

 

I've been killed by a Marauder in under 3GCD's. Anecdotal evidence is anecdotal.

[LilxWaffle]

Truly, no class should be nerfed.

 

All classes have a weakness and a strong point. probably the reason sages/sorc are pwning you is because you are the class(s) that they are strong against.

[TetraCleric]

3k a tick you say? Wow. I'm lucky if I get 1k a tick. That guy must be wearing two suites of gear, because what you're saying is that he's doing 12k damage? That's .. impressive, considering I'm full Champion and the difference between the two sets are what? 5-10%?

 

They also don't do 400k-500k damage every match. They usually get to 150k-200k, depending on the warzone and intensity of the fighting. AoE-star is usually an exception, with maybe double the damage numbers.

 

I've been killed by a Marauder in under 3GCD's. Anecdotal evidence is anecdotal.

 

I'm in full Battlemaster gear, and the highest my FL will crit on a non geared 50 is 1.3-1.4k. And that's with Relic/Adrenals going.

 

Biggest Death Field crit in the same situation is 3.8k.

 

Biggest Chain Lightning crit in the same situation is 3.8k.

 

But we OP right? (sarcasm)

[Lormif]

Seriously, and they're just parroting the same crap back and forth to each other now.

 

Sorc Talking Point 1: If you can't beat a Sorc 1v1 L2P you class nub

 

Fact: Geared Sorcs are impossible to kill 1v1. They have too many escape tools, even against multiple opponents. They won't kill you 1v1, but that's not why they are overpowered.

 

That is called an opinion... I know lots of people who kill sorcs 1v1, just because you cant, does not make it a fact.

 

Sorc Talking Point 2: I see you guys are facing 31/31/31 Sorcs!

 

Fact: Sorcs have 2 main hybrid specs, the madness hybrid and the healing hybrid spec. Both are overpowered.

 

Fact: Sorcs become weaker in PvP if they spec 31 points in any tree. What other class can say that?

Again, something being overpowered is an opinion.

 

Unless you can say X class must not be able to do Y it is an opinion, and since you cant in this game, it is all opinion

 

Sorc Talking Point 3: Bring more people, Sorcs die fast!

 

Fact: Sorcs have the most escape tools out of any class. They are extremely adept at escaping multiple people, especially melee classes.

 

Fact: Sorcs are strongest in groups.

looking at talent trees it seems ops and such have more escape tools.

 

Sorc Talking Point 4: Just interrupt, scrub!

 

Fact: Sorcs have stuns, roots, knockbacks, and CC to get space. They also have instant abilities. Interrupting does not cripple the class. Skilled Sorcs just use another ability.

 

So will any other skilled player at their class.

 

Sorc Talking Point 5: I'm <some other class> and I kill Sorcs all the time!

 

Fact: You're probably a Sorc.

 

The FACT that you said probably, shows that is not a fact.

 

Sorc Talking Point 6: It's impossible to get 600k/200k or 300k/500k in a warzone, so Sorcs are fine. Oh and the screenshot you posted of someone who did it means everyone else sucked.

 

Fact: Warzone numbers are completely irrelevant to how imbalanced the class is.

 

Exactly so stop trying to use them.

 

Sorc Talking Point 7: Everyone only plays Sorc because of the lightning.

 

Fact: Many people rolled Sorc because it is the most powerful class.

 

citation please

 

I would like PROOF of all your facts, being facts you can provide empirical evidence that all is true/

Edited February 7, 2012 by Lormif

[jizerai]

I'm in full Battlemaster gear, and the highest my FL will crit on a non geared 50 is 1.3-1.4k. And that's with Relic/Adrenals going.

 

Biggest Death Field crit in the same situation is 3.8k.

 

Biggest Chain Lightning crit in the same situation is 3.8k.

 

But we OP right? (sarcasm)

 

That's pretty much my numbers as well - and all of those are on under-geared opponents. The only thing that's sad with the Sage/Sorcerer class is that hybrid specs are so much better then pure specs.

 

It's baffling how people use "they do too much burst damage!". Then, when that's refuted (because they don't do burst damage) they turn around and go "but their shield absorbs 3 of my hardest hitting attacks and is constantly up!" and when that's refuted as well, they go "but they still have too much cc, I can never get close to them with my Marauder" and I'm like ... wth? I get torn apart by Marauders all the time. My cooldowns are longer than theirs. That's the first clue.

 

So which is it? Our insane burst damage, our immortal tanking or our crowd control with no cooldowns? Or is it all of them?

[TetraCleric]

The only thing that's sad with the Sage/Sorcerer class is that hybrid specs are so much better then pure specs.

 

I only play light/mad hybrid because it's hilarious, but when I go 31 mad, my survivability skyrockets, and my damage honestly doesn't take that much of a hit.

 

I know when rateds/arena come out, I'll be playing 31 mad exclusively.

[Lormif]

That's pretty much my numbers as well - and all of those are on under-geared opponents. The only thing that's sad with the Sage/Sorcerer class is that hybrid specs are so much better then pure specs.

 

It's baffling how people use "they do too much burst damage!". Then, when that's refuted (because they don't do burst damage) they turn around and go "but their shield absorbs 3 of my hardest hitting attacks and is constantly up!" and when that's refuted as well, they go "but they still have too much cc, I can never get close to them with my Marauder" and I'm like ... wth? I get torn apart by Marauders all the time. My cooldowns are longer than theirs. That's the first clue.

 

So which is it? Our insane burst damage, our immortal tanking or our crowd control with no cooldowns? Or is it all of them?

 

 

It is that most of them dont understand what a logical fallacy is.

[sithgrizley]

It absorbs about 3500 at max, tracers hit for 3k+ crit.. If you argue that then you have no clue what you speak of, just as simple as that.

 

Ok, let me give you a little math to show why that shield is incredible.

 

A Merc can get 30% crit in PvP gear. A normal TM will be 1200-1400 maybe. A crit will be 3kish.

 

A TM costs 25 heat. A Merc loses 5 heat a second if they are under 40 heat. At 40 heat to 80 heat they lose 3 heat a second, 80-100 2 heat a second.

 

So you have a 10 second old shield up (average case) and a Merc opens up on you. You are a complete tool and just stand there, possibly typing a post about TM on the forums.

 

You have a 3k shield. TMs average damage counting crits is about 1700.

 

3 seconds later your shield has taken 3400 damage on average (still up) the merc is sitting at 45 heat.

 

4.5 seconds later your shield is gone and you've taken 1500 damage. Merc is at 61 heat.

 

6 seconds later you have taken 3200 damage Merc is at 82 heat.

 

Merc now can't afford another TM and you've taken a grand total of 3200 damage. Your shield is back up in 4 seconds. You still haven't even touched an ability.

 

Ok, so TM spam utterly fails.

 

If the Merc uses a little better rotation like TM TM Unload, TM, TM you will take a bit more damage over 9 seconds, but you will still be alive to recast your shield.

 

That 3k shield is a lot better than you think, especially considering the fact that you will never run out of force and the Merc overheats fairly quickly. Now the Merc will have procs to lose 8 heat on crits so he is probably 8 heat, maybe 16 if he is lucky less than the numbers given.

 

Keep in mind, in that example you did nothing but sit there screaming like a little girl and waiting for your shield to come back. Thow in some CC or healing or damage and you can see where things get bad for the merc pretty quickly.

[jizerai]

I only play light/mad hybrid because it's hilarious, but when I go 31 mad, my survivability skyrockets, and my damage honestly doesn't take that much of a hit.

 

I know when rateds/arena come out, I'll be playing 31 mad exclusively.

 

I've never tried a x/x/31 spec. I'm always eye-balling that Creeping Terror, whispering sweet sweet nothings to myself.. but I never dare go there, just in case it won't rock my world. Living the fantasy is a lot better, you know? ;D

 

But seriously, in a rated environment another crowd control on such a low cooldown would be invaluable.

 

Also, perhaps a bit off-topic

[TetraCleric]

I've never tried a x/x/31 spec. I'm always eye-balling that Creeping Terror, whispering sweet sweet nothings to myself.. but I never dare go there, just in case it won't rock my world. Living the fantasy is a lot better, you know? ;D

 

But seriously, in a rated environment another crowd control on such a low cooldown would be invaluable.

 

Also, perhaps a bit off-topic

 

It's not just another cc, it's also a DoT that has a very high dpct. And I don't care if it's off topic, this thread is terrible anyways =p.

Edited February 7, 2012 by TetraCleric

[Lormif]

Ok, let me give you a little math to show why that shield is incredible.

 

A Merc can get 30% crit in PvP gear. A normal TM will be 1200-1400 maybe. A crit will be 3kish.

 

A TM costs 25 heat. A Merc loses 5 heat a second if they are under 40 heat. At 40 heat to 80 heat they lose 3 heat a second, 80-100 2 heat a second.

 

So you have a 10 second old shield up (average case) and a Merc opens up on you. You are a complete tool and just stand there, possibly typing a post about TM on the forums.

 

You have a 3k shield. TMs average damage counting crits is about 1700.

 

3 seconds later your shield has taken 3400 damage on average (still up) the merc is sitting at 45 heat.

 

4.5 seconds later your shield is gone and you've taken 1500 damage. Merc is at 61 heat.

 

6 seconds later you have taken 3200 damage Merc is at 82 heat.

 

Merc now can't afford another TM and you've taken a grand total of 3200 damage. Your shield is back up in 4 seconds. You still haven't even touched an ability.

 

Ok, so TM spam utterly fails.

 

If the Merc uses a little better rotation like TM TM Unload, TM, TM you will take a bit more damage over 9 seconds, but you will still be alive to recast your shield.

 

That 3k shield is a lot better than you think, especially considering the fact that you will never run out of force and the Merc overheats fairly quickly. Now the Merc will have procs to lose 8 heat on crits so he is probably 8 heat, maybe 16 if he is lucky less than the numbers given.

 

Keep in mind, in that example you did nothing but sit there screaming like a little girl and waiting for your shield to come back. Thow in some CC or healing or damage and you can see where things get bad for the merc pretty quickly.

 

 

So wait, I start at t-10 where as you start at t.. If we shift it to where we both start at t I have taken alot more damage at the end, about the same as you if I was not standing there doing nothing.

[sithgrizley]

I got crittet by an assasin tank today for 4400 =) I know he was a tank because he pulled me in when I used force speed =) No way to escape them as a sorc, and they hit harder than out highest burst, go figure =)

 

If an assassin tank hit you for 4400 he was probably using assassinate. That is a skill with a middling cooldown that does high damage against a player with less than 30% hp. Think a WoW warriors execute but not spammable and with less damage.

 

Or possibly a prepatch shock hybrid spec who had all his shock buffs up. Also a chance he was using backstab, which unless it got him the kill on that hit was foolish since it costs 50% of his force. (Unlike Sorcs, assassins have to manage their force).

[Lormif]

(Unlike Sorcs, assassins have to manage their force).

 

That is because we got no burst damage.. Give us some burst and I would not mind having to manage it.

[sithgrizley]

So wait, I start at t-10 where as you start at t.. If we shift it to where we both start at t I have taken alot more damage at the end, about the same as you if I was not standing there doing nothing.

 

Nope. It doesn't change it at all. If you had JUST cast the shield as you see the first missile winding up then 10 seconds into the fight the Merc is still in heat trouble and you've still taken less than 3k damage. Without touching your keyboard.