3000 years back, still it look like the movies?

[Riotus]

In defense of the lore, I'd like to point to the Death Star as an achievement (however evil) of technology. The impression is certainly made that the galaxy wasn't capable of such a weapon until it was designed just before the Clone Wars.

 

I still think it's silly that there's so little development over 3,000 years, but that may be one glimmer of evidence to the contrary.

 

Whats sad is there are weapons in SWTOR that dwarf the power of the death star. a certain weapon that can destroy an entire star system comes to mind... or a weapon that can target someone anywhere in the galaxy....

[Dezzi]

^ This. Wireless communication, but no wireless networking. A good example is the Jedi archives. They have to talk about the archives over comm channels, but they can't access them directly by wireless means.

 

The book Death Star contains a scene where information is shared wirelessly across a network. Isn't the HoloNet itself a wireless network?

[cipher_nemo]

But it doesn't.

 

Again, I'm okay with this, but let's not pretend like it's logical.

 

And again, it's "sci-fi". The same is true for Star Trek, Babylon 5, etc. Almost every piece of fiction is going to have contradictions and fallacies. The fans of each use the lore and stories to find explanations, regardless of whether they satisfy the illogical parts or not.

 

Who cares if Star Wars and TOR isn't 100% based in science or civilization trends as we know it today? The fans can certainly have their fun covering the holes left by the writers. Sometimes the writers even adopt those explanations.

[NemoSD]

I never said it was more advanced. I said it can shoot things outside of it's visual range, which my mighty sci-fi starship can't do.

 

And why can't it do that? No technological reason and no reason that makes sense beyond "It wouldn't be dramatic otherwise."

 

you keep bringing this gross misunderstanding of the difference between sensor technology the persists today between space and atmospheres.

 

So lets get started:

 

You have two major factors to consider in when looking at detection/sensor technology. Line of Sight and atmospherics.

 

Line of Sight means that on a planet, in an atmosphere, the maximum range is determined by the angle of attack on the horizon. IE the higher your altitude, the longer your line of sight. This created by the fact that the planet is a sphere, and curvature will block very long distances.

 

This is way air frames like the AWACs are employed, and why satellites are being used more and more to direct ordinance. The F-22 can not target a missile out side of its visual range, it just delivers the hardware to a start point predetermined by the AWACs or Sat Control.

 

Lets jump into space. In space, LoS is infinite, however the further one is away from an object, the slower data returns. This is what limits range in a space mind sense, also atmospherics come into play.

 

In an atmosphere, UHF radio waves are directed towards a target, which bounces back at a different frequency. This is Radar. The same thing that stops sound in space also interferes with traditional Radar. Thus visual sensors are now required. (You could argue Ladar, but that is a tech that requires you know something is there.) So now, sensor technology is limited by the effective range of information gathering, as well as delay in data return. This limits effective combat range to about the same as it would in an atmosphere.

 

Using canon, not in game demonstrations, a turbolaser battery is capable of delivering massive damage outside of a 100km. Low earth orbit is 500km, and SDs bombard planets from low earth orbit, meaning significant destructive force still remaining after burning through the ozone. You could surmise then that a turbolaser would be deadly up to 1000km, but now you are approaching communication delay ranges, so accuracy would greatly drop off.

 

But why turbolasers? Simple answer is research management. When it takes a ship two months to arrive on station, you don't leave it there for two months, you leave it there as long as you can. Missiles run out far sooner then the energy for plasma, which on smaller ships is collected from residual radiation in a solar system. (This is a concept NASA is using to power the International Space Station.)

 

And sense the TL weapons are capable of hitting max effective range, that makes them equally and more useful. This brings the starfighter into play as well. They now become a means of delivering heavy ordinance at point blank ranges, which means their payloads are designed with capital ships in mind, not starfighter scale, which pushes the fighter defense into furball style melee. (Dogfights are still trained for by both the Air Force and Navy, but do not occur because since Korea, every war the US has been in, we have had Air Superiority.)

Edited February 3, 2012 by Sireene
rude/uninviting

[MasterKayote]

P.S: The Death Star is still the most advanced thing in the SW universe. Its a space station the size of a small moon! Who knows what other advances it has (impenetrable shields?). No one ever said it was because it can blow up planets. Thats just an assumptions because it stood out in the movies. It could just be the most powerful (defensive and offensive), minus a small defensive bug lol, and largest, space station ever.

[Erudain]

The time table used for years is based on a planet with only a few earth days per revloution around its sun. Therefore the 3000 years is really only around 200 earth years.

 

According to almigthy George L....galactic calendars are all centered on Coruscant solar year.

Coruscant year = 368 days.....so 3000 years in that galazy far far away are more or less the same as here.

[Dezzi]

P.S: The Death Star is still the most advanced thing in the SW universe. Its a space station the size of a small moon! Who knows what other advances it has (impenetrable shields?). No one ever said it was because it can blow up planets. Thats just an assumptions because it stood out in the movies. It could just be the most powerful (defensive and offensive), minus a small defensive bug lol, and largest, space station ever.

 

 

According to Death Star, the infamous exhaust port was a mistake, but was caught too late and by a person unconcerned with the success of the Empire.

 

Even with that little hiccup, the Death Star was BOSS.

Edited February 3, 2012 by Dezzi

[Rippentuck]

But it doesn't.

 

Again, I'm okay with this, but let's not pretend like it's logical.

 

Are you sure you understand what's going on in this thread? Nobody is trying to claim that Star Wars strictly adheres to real physical laws or makes much sense in the real world. They're just offering some believable reasons (that are relevant to the fictional setting) as to why things look similar.

 

Okay?

 

 

Rip

Edited February 3, 2012 by Rippentuck

[JumperPenn]

Op is correct but this was true in KOTOR1/2 as well, not to mention the EU material where virtually nothing has evolved technologically, sure some things did but most stayed the same.

 

The point is to keep it 'star wars' but not have it all center around what most people know the films since there is still material in and around those times that is written about or developed for other projects, clone wars, the live action show, comics, etc.

 

So a few years after the clone wars or whatever wouldn't work as you'd have people complaining where's this and that, why haven't I heard of this event and so on.

[Erudain]

It took 3000 years to invent blue milk.

 

here we have a winner

[JustTed]

And again, it's "sci-fi". The same is true for Star Trek, Babylon 5, etc. Almost every piece of fiction is going to have contradictions and fallacies.

 

This is precisely my point.

[cipher_nemo]

The point is to keep it 'star wars' but not have it all center around what most people know the films since there is still material in and around those times that is written about or developed for other projects, clone wars, the live action show, comics, etc.

 

If you deviate too far from what the world knows as "Star Wars", you won't have a game because 1.) Lucas would veto it and pull the rights, and 2.) a good chunk of fans wouldn't be comfortable with it.

 

I love the fact that TOR feels like a game based on the 70s sci-fi of Star Wars. If it felt too modern or too out of sync with the Star Wars universe, it just wouldn't be Star Wars. From clothing fashions to ships with sharp angles and edges, I think Bioware did a great job on making it feel like Star Wars. I personally could care less whether it was set in time before or after the movies or prequels. After all time-framing was never a strong suit of Star Wars.

Edited February 3, 2012 by cipher_nemo

[JustTed]

you keep bringing this gross misunderstanding of the difference between sensor technology the persists today between space and atmospheres.

 

So lets get started:

 

You have two major factors to consider in when looking at detection/sensor technology. Line of Sight and atmospherics.

 

Line of Sight means that on a planet, in an atmosphere, the maximum range is determined by the angle of attack on the horizon. IE the higher your altitude, the longer your line of sight. This created by the fact that the planet is a sphere, and curvature will block very long distances.

 

This is way air frames like the AWACs are employed, and why satellites are being used more and more to direct ordinance. The F-22 can not target a missile out side of its visual range, it just delivers the hardware to a start point predetermined by the AWACs or Sat Control.

 

Lets jump into space. In space, LoS is infinite, however the further one is away from an object, the slower data returns. This is what limits range in a space mind sense, also atmospherics come into play.

 

In an atmosphere, UHF radio waves are directed towards a target, which bounces back at a different frequency. This is Radar. The same thing that stops sound in space also interferes with traditional Radar. Thus visual sensors are now required. (You could argue Ladar, but that is a tech that requires you know something is there.) So now, sensor technology is limited by the effective range of information gathering, as well as delay in data return. This limits effective combat range to about the same as it would in an atmosphere.

 

Using canon, not in game demonstrations, a turbolaser battery is capable of delivering massive damage outside of a 100km. Low earth orbit is 500km, and SDs bombard planets from low earth orbit, meaning significant destructive force still remaining after burning through the ozone. You could surmise then that a turbolaser would be deadly up to 1000km, but now you are approaching communication delay ranges, so accuracy would greatly drop off.

 

But why turbolasers? Simple answer is research management. When it takes a ship two months to arrive on station, you don't leave it there for two months, you leave it there as long as you can. Missiles run out far sooner then the energy for plasma, which on smaller ships is collected from residual radiation in a solar system. (This is a concept NASA is using to power the International Space Station.)

 

And sense the TL weapons are capable of hitting max effective range, that makes them equally and more useful. This brings the starfighter into play as well. They now become a means of delivering heavy ordinance at point blank ranges, which means their payloads are designed with capital ships in mind, not starfighter scale, which pushes the fighter defense into furball style melee. (Dogfights are still trained for by both the Air Force and Navy, but do not occur because since Korea, every war the US has been in, we have had Air Superiority.)

 

Good god. This is amazing.

 

I can't get a target lock on something outside of my line of sight, in space, on my starship.

 

We can do this today.

Edited February 3, 2012 by Sireene
reply to edited post

[Pengatron]

3000 years back, still it look like the movies?

 

That's the idea.

This game is supposed to give the players an experience of playing in the Star Wars universe. And all anyone has ever seen (not just read, but actually seen) of that is from the movies and the KOTOR series (and other computer games).

 

The reason it is 3000 years ago is so the activities occurring do not interfere with the already established stories and lore from the movies and books.

[Despairity]

This has got to be the most pointless discussion I've yet seen on these forums.

 

It's a made up universe for crissakes! So make up whatever reason you want for the technological stagnation. Whatever floats your boat.

[NemoSD]

Good god. This is amazing.

 

I can't get a target lock on something outside of my line of sight, in space, on my starship.

 

We can do this today.

 

You keep jumping for 'in game' on an arcade shooter.. to actual Star Wars canon, I am not playing that game, I am talking actual canon here. -shrug- Plus, I will point out that a F-22 CAN NOT get a target lock on something out of its line of sight. An AWACS who HAS LINE OF SIGHT relay's information.

 

However given the lack of curvature in space EVERYONES LOS is the same meaning the AWACS is unneeded.

 

To answer the questions on the HoloNet, it is basically the internet circa 1990, contains encyclopedia type knowledge and can transmit limited data and is used primarily as a navigation and communication hub. (The insta communication across the galaxy is thanks to this net work which is a serious of hyperspace transceivers spread through out the galaxy, and during the period following Endor there are at least three different HoloNets in operations, drawing more parallels to the 1990's internet.)

Edited February 3, 2012 by Sireene
reply to edited post

[JustTed]

To answer the questions on the HoloNet, it is basically the internet circa 1990, contains encyclopedia type knowledge and can transmit limited data and is used primarily as a navigation and communication hub. (The insta communication across the galaxy is thanks to this net work which is a serious of hyperspace transceivers spread through out the galaxy, and during the period following Endor there are at least three different HoloNets in operations, drawing more parallels to the 1990's internet.)

 

How cute.

[cipher_nemo]

The reason it is 3000 years ago is so the activities occurring do not interfere with the already established stories and lore from the movies and books.

 

Exactly. We know the real reason: to make it feel like Star Wars and not contradict its own series of events. Still, there are of course lore-based ways to explain why the galaxy looks similar to other Star Wars time periods. I'm happy with any sort of explanation since Star Wars is about the experience for me, not about trying to over-analyze sci-fi to find loop holes and contradictions

[jarjarloves]

So we are 3000 years back. Still the world look like the new movies and Clone Wars series. Vehicles have not changed much, armour and weapons are the same. Even the clothing design is very close to Darth Vader! Trooper armour look like the ones in Clone wars series etc.

 

Did the world stop 3000 years back and only people got older? Didn't the weapon design change at all? They made one armour and then they said "lets use this one for over 3000 years now"... hello?

 

It's like our world would stop at 1920, same cars, cloths and so on. Walking around looking like Capone in 2012?

 

Maby it would have been better to stay 3 years from Clone wars in the story?

 

the answer is easy it's all about plot

 

People want to play in the star wars universe with out having to be bound to the events of the OT. If you made it so it was during the OT then your character couldn't do anything that would actually effect the world.

 

Making it 1,000 years in the past allows them to create new characters and events that don't effect the events of the OT.

[Erudain]

According to Death Star, the infamous exhaust port was a mistake, but was caught too late and by a person unconcerned with the success of the Empire.

 

Even with that little hiccup, the Death Star was BOSS.

 

Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa! That sounds like a pretty big design flaw, then.

Can't they board it up or, you know, put some plywood over it or something?

[Dezzi]

Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa! That sounds like a pretty big design flaw, then.

Can't they board it up or, you know, put some plywood over it or something?

 

Apparently the exhaust port had shielding and redundancies built in to protect it from errant particles and indirect blasts. Unfortunately, the true redundancy was the port itself, which was unnecessary because there was a perfectly-protected one nearby.

[cipher_nemo]

Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa! That sounds like a pretty big design flaw, then.

Can't they board it up or, you know, put some plywood over it or something?

 

Wouldn't that defeat the purpose of an exhaust port? ;-) I think they need to put a big ol' grate over it to stop those missiles.

[Erudain]

Apparently the exhaust port had shielding and redundancies built in to protect it from errant particles and indirect blasts. Unfortunately, the true redundancy was the port itself, which was unnecessary because there was a perfectly-protected one nearby.

 

And besides, that would look terrible. I mean, you gotta think about resale.

[Dezzi]

And besides, that would look terrible. I mean, you gotta think about resale.

 

Resale? You kidding? Tarkin wouldn't be able to part with it.

[Kosomok]

Good god. This is amazing.

 

I can't get a target lock on something outside of my line of sight, in space, on my starship.

 

We can do this today.

 

 

Actually, you CAN'T get a target lock on an object out of your LoS today. The target MAY be Beyond Visual Range (BVR) but it won't be out of your LoS. The two are not the same.

 

LoS will vary depending upon sensor type and actual sensor range--most contemporary sensors rely upon a direct LoS to the target because they use EM radiation as a sensing agent. One exception is sonar, which relies upon sound transmission through water (and it does not require a direct LoS and can have an amazingly long range, depending upon water conditions).

 

You can fire/release a weapon at a target that is out of your LoS if it is either self-guided (this would include GPS targeting) or you have a data/targeting link to someone who does have a LoS and the weapon in question has maneuver capability. You cannot fire a weapon at something out of your LoS if it is a direct fire weapon (unguided projectile or energy/particle weapon). Bal;listic weapons can also do this (i.e. firing over obstructions at fixed coordinates or dropping a bomb from a high altitude that will follow a ballistic trajectory to a fixed location).

 

Most combat that we see in the various SF movies and TV shows is ludicrous and is based upon visual appeal rather than any science or technology--that's perfectly fine as long as you do not confuse fiction with reality. The combat in the original SW movies was based upon WW2 era fighter movies, for example.

 

In space combat, sensor lag becomes a major issue unless you have FTL sensors or your target is in a fixed location.. if the target is a light-second away it takes 2 seconds for you to get targeting info on it (if you are using lightspeed sensors) using active sensors--any passive detection you have on it is at least a second old. Doesn't seem like much until you consider that the target is moving and that your weapon will take a second or longer to get to the target.. meaning it has had at least 2 seconds to move from where you last "saw" it... and with an energy or particle weapon, near misses don't count.

 

It isn't as easy to hit things as many people seem to think.

Edited February 3, 2012 by Sireene
reply to edited post