Anthiel Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 Facts: PvP = Player versus Player Player <> Character Player <> Gear Player = Skill (in that skill is the only way the player is reflected in game) Gear <> Skill MMO = Massively Multiplayer Online RPG = Role Playing Game Character = Gear (in that gear and other stats determine the Character's power) RPG = Character If we sift through these facts we can arrive at assumptions that have a logical basis: Gear is a function of the character, not of the player. Skill is a function of the player, not of the character. MMO is not a function of player or character, but player or character can be a function of an MMO. RPGs rely on Character and therefore gear. PvP relies on Player and therefore skill. MMO RPGs rely on Character and therefore gear. MMO PvP relies on Player and therefore skill. Therefore, any system that relies on gear is character based and any system that relies on skill is player based. PvP is supposed to be player based therefore "PvP" that uses gear is not logically PvP but rather Character versus Character (or CvC). this isint logic its the definition the argument that they guy linked to bravo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tharrn Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 Just FYI the patchnotes now read 'The number of commendations in Champion and Battlemaster Bags has been greatly increased, and the direct item trade tokens appear less frequently in Champion Bags. This change allows players to obtain PvP gear at a steady and significantly more predictable rate with an occasional bonus.' Not sure if they changed it, but I guess they never intended to suggest a nerf but are just making it easier to get T1/T2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zqsd Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 You're a carebear that wants to be a PVPer. The coming changes are welcomed by the actual PVPers. I rely on gear to take 2 or more people down, engage someone while i'm at 50% health, be more useful to my team and most of all, i like to take down a better geared player than me on my own. All those things are gear related and very enjoyable and i'm serious PvPer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orangerascal Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 I'll take the complete opposite approach, if you don't have the gear then you're not a pvper. The games been out for a month and a half. If you haven't been pvping what have you been doing. P.S. having a life does not count Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khadroth Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 (edited) "reduciing the gear related power difference" is certainly open to interpretation. would i be shocked if that meant a PvP gear nerf? absolutely not, but it could mean other things. Aye, I'm not opposed to this. Honestly it probably just means they're tweaking expertise's conversion rate and cap without touching the stats on the gear itself. That said, still disagree completely with the OP. You can be a PvPer and still want to be rewarded for your efforts. Edited February 2, 2012 by Khadroth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJMTL Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 Great, now I get to rinse and repeat the same lameass zones over and over again for no real reason other than destroy my insides with the ulcers ultimately formed by how bad the vast majority of the people on my server are. OR Venture into an "open PvP" zone containing less than 10 people (half of which are just farming chests). Oh boy, the variety. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth_Philar Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 this isint logic its the definition the argument that they guy linked to bravo Unless you have a logical counter or wish to show an actual flaw in my logic your response is useless in a logical debate. The person who brought up the "No True Scotsman" link was attempting to dismiss the argument. My fully supported argument above shows that this is not a case of a logical fallacy, but rather an actual issue of divergent definitions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JBloom Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 If you can't be bothered to farm up the gear, you're not a real pvper. You're a carebear who can't take losing for a while. See what I did there? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanisUDL Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 If you can't be bothered to farm up the gear, you're not a real pvper. You're a carebear who can't take losing for a while. See what I did there? Made a bad argument? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JBloom Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 (edited) Facts: PvP = Player versus Player Player <> Character Player <> Gear Player = Skill (in that skill is the only way the player is reflected in game) Gear <> Skill MMO = Massively Multiplayer Online RPG = Role Playing Game Character = Gear (in that gear and other stats determine the Character's power) RPG = Character If we sift through these facts we can arrive at assumptions that have a logical basis: Gear is a function of the character, not of the player. Skill is a function of the player, not of the character. MMO is not a function of player or character, but player or character can be a function of an MMO. RPGs rely on Character and therefore gear. PvP relies on Player and therefore skill. MMO RPGs rely on Character and therefore gear. MMO PvP relies on Player and therefore skill. Therefore, any system that relies on gear is character based and any system that relies on skill is player based. PvP is supposed to be player based therefore "PvP" that uses gear is not logically PvP but rather Character versus Character (or CvC). Semantics. Within the context of an mmo, particularly following the WoWesque format, PvP is always character v character to some degree or another (per your definition.) Edited February 2, 2012 by JBloom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
getdownsb Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 You're a carebear that wants to be a PVPer. The coming changes are welcomed by the actual PVPers. I don't even know what the changes are, are they making gear less important? Because I hate having to grind derp gear for days and days just so I don't get 3 shot by people that have the magic space dragon slayer helm of carebear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JBloom Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 Made a bad argument? I formed an analogy to demonstrate the absurdity of the OP's claim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guinden Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 (edited) You're a carebear that wants to be a PVPer. The coming changes are welcomed by the actual PVPers. Too bad if you fight against same skilled opponents, gear difference will decide how it ends..at least here in swtor...GW was more balanced.. Edited February 2, 2012 by Guinden Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth_Philar Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 Semantics. Within the context of an mmo, particularly following the WoWesque format, PvP is always character v character (per your definition.) Precisely. It isn't actually PvP which is why there is much confusion. People who like actual PvP do not like CvC. People who like CvC do not like PvP. The PvP fans are unhappy when they play CvC that is advertised as PvP and they call for changes. Sometimes those changes are made and the CvC fans are unhappy. A good start would be for developers to advertise correctly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flowerslayer Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman Every time someone uses a form of the term "not a real PvP'er"... QFT. That is all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goxwerd Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 I don't even know what the changes are, are they making gear less important? Because I hate having to grind derp gear for days and days just so I don't get 3 shot by people that have the magic space dragon slayer helm of carebear. No one knows yet. People are just overreacting. All we know is there will not be as much of a gear differential between a newish 50 and a geared 50. So either they will change expertise or they will make an entry level pvp set. Since this was all said in a crafting thread i assume there will be mods with expertise at the very least and i wouldn't be surprised if expertise is reworked some. Also it sounds like these changes are not coming anytime soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JBloom Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 Precisely. It isn't actually PvP which is why there is much confusion. People who like actual PvP do not like CvC. People who like CvC do not like PvP. The PvP fans are unhappy when they play CvC that is advertised as PvP and they call for changes. Sometimes those changes are made and the CvC fans are unhappy. A good start would be for developers to advertise correctly. Caveat Emptor. Perhaps they just expect people to understand what they're getting themselves into when they buy the game. Perhaps that's unfair. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flowerslayer Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 (edited) Too bad if you fight against same skilled opponents, gear difference will decide how it ends..at least here in swtor...GW was more balanced.. Again, fallacy. There is no possible way to accurately measure a players "skill". Honestly, posing as a "true pvper" is just silly. There is no such thing as a false pvper. Professional pvpers are another matter. They play rts or fps games, not games that are built around a leveling system where you progress and build your character to become more powerful. Edited February 2, 2012 by Flowerslayer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth_Philar Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 Caveat Emptor. Perhaps they just expect people to understand what they're getting themselves into when they buy the game. Perhaps that's unfair. Yes, a degree of responsibility lies with the consumer, but I think that the extremely different sub games that are CvC and PvP (the only similarity is that the player's avatar engages the avatar of other players) demand an honest assessment by the developer of what they have created in order to avoid this type of severe disconnect between perception and reality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanisUDL Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 Again, fallacy. There is no possible way to accurately measure a players "skill". Honestly, posing as a "true pvper" is just silly. There is no such thing as a false pvper. Professional pvpers are another matter. They play rts or fps games, not games that are built around a leveling system where you progress and build your character to become more powerful. I think by "true PvPer" he means people that actually care about competive (and I don't mean Pro) PvP. They want to have relatively balanced fights and compete with one another. And if you give players same/similar gear, wouldn't the winner be normally the most skilled? There are certainly games where this is the case (Darkfall, GW, Eve). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JBloom Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 Yes, a degree of responsibility lies with the consumer, but I think that the extremely different sub games that are CvC and PvP (the only similarity is that the player's avatar engages the avatar of other players) demand an honest assessment by the developer of what they have created in order to avoid this type of severe disconnect between perception and reality. Honestly, the minute I heard there was going to be pvp gear, I knew I needed to be one of the first people to get it. That's why I started playing in early access. There is no real difference between this game and my former game (Aion) in that sense. In Aion, however, it was possible to farm abyss points (the equivalent of commendations) through PvE. Because I got into Aion late I spent about a month just PvEing before I ever tried to PvP. The price that a latecomer pays for being late is that they will be behind those who got into the game before them. To me, though, that's part of the allure of this sort of game. To others it just seems unfair. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheFreshBrew Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 You're a carebear that wants to be a PVPer. The coming changes are welcomed by the actual PVPers. Wait, the coming changes that are gonna buff lower level 50 pvp gear is welcomed by people who say "if you rely on gear, you're not a pvp'er" ? Makes sense to me... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muscarine Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 Being a good pvper in a MMOrpg also means you need to understand how your character's stats work with each others, and how to get the highest profit from tweaking it. A good undertanding of how your class works with numbers, in other words. Now, with the current system, you get awesome ready to go numbers by just mindlessly grinding 'til you get a winning lottery ticket. And then you get the upper hand in fights by just sitting there until RNGs tell you ok, now winning will be easier for you. This has nothing to do with hard work nor skills, it's just a mix of lazyness and hours spent waiting for it. Of course some battlemaster geared players are actually skilled players, this is not what is being questionned here. I personnaly want a system that requires both skills AND extended knowledge and tweaking of your character sheet (numbers + class skills) to get the maximum advantages out of it. Thus, i would love to see all the gear (as in uniforms) being just about cosmetics (lots of look customization is always good), but a deeply reworked modding system that allows players to tweak armoring / mods / enhancement pieces, etc, still depending on the valor rank to unlock acces to higher mod opportunities. For instance, let's take an armoring mod. Right now you will see, for exemple, a rated 108 armoring mod with 21 endurance and 28 willpower. Maybe, we should start with a base number of 108 + 21 + 28 = 157. 157 points you have to allocate between armor, willpower, and endurance. Same goes once you get your hands on +surge, +crits, etc mods. Instead of having players just waiting to find a better version of something already made and thought for them. I mean, what is the point if everything is all set and ready, removing numbers would do the same since right now they are just here for cosmetics, since they will all be the same in the end. As many here say, you can't ask a RPG to be a FPS, but there is a nuance to be made here, a RPG should never give away ready to go gear to players without them having any clue on how every stat work with each others and how they affect your class. It's way too easy, too simple, doesn't require anyone to do anything else than smash buttons since anything related to how you are geared and stat'd was thought for you. Make the game skill based but have people actually care for their character sheet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanisUDL Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 Wait, the coming changes that are gonna buff lower level 50 pvp gear is welcomed by people who say "if you rely on gear, you're not a pvp'er" ? Makes sense to me... They are making the gear gap between players closer. How is this something difficult to comprehend? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khadroth Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 Yes, a degree of responsibility lies with the consumer, but I think that the extremely different sub games that are CvC and PvP (the only similarity is that the player's avatar engages the avatar of other players) demand an honest assessment by the developer of what they have created in order to avoid this type of severe disconnect between perception and reality. As long as an element of skill exists it's still PvP in my book. Ask yourself: In spite of gear can... -A new 50 beat a centurion geared character? Yes. -A centurion geared character beat a champion geared character? Yes. -A champion geared character beat a battlemaster? Yes. And it's not nearly so restrictive in reality. The "gear is not pvp" mindset can also be used against the people who have it. Take away gear, you know what happens? Now you have class based pvp and still not skill-based, where one class suddenly dominates others and is beaten by their counter. You just have a giant round robin instead of competition in your book. Show me a game that you think has only skill-based pvp, and I'll show you a way to gain an advantage in it seperate from skill every time. So why bother making the argument? At least with multiple factors contributing other than the gear (skill, class, terrain, team), the role gear plays in determining a contest is reduced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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