You know, this isn't a very good roleplaying game, really.

[Kiyosa]

Like others said, taking whatever happens to your character during leveling/missioning ICly is kinda silly. If that was the case, my character has managed to come back to life countless times after dying, is married to her pilot and is also member of the dark council...all of which makes no sense at all from IC standpoint. All those happenings are implemented in order to make your leveling experience less boring, not to give your character an IC background. That you have to do on your own, preferably involving less exaggerated and more likely to happen events.

[Slamz]

You're nitpicking. Any game with titles for major achievements is the same as this, and I never saw anyone whine like this about RP in WoW.

 

How is that "nitpicking"? It's a major flaw in the story. Just because every other game does it doesn't mean it's not a major flaw.

 

If this was a regular RPG, I think you'd agree that it's very poorly done and just inexcusable. It's as if the GM just said, "And you, TyHeaton, shall have the only Sword of Rules in all the lands. With it, you shall command power over all who see it. Also, everyone else has one too."

 

You'd be all, "Um, what? So, one of them is real and the rest are fakes?"

 

"Oh no, no. They're all real. And there's only one of them in all the land. And everyone here has one."

 

 

It's exactly the same as having to ignore the fact that the boss you just killed has already been killed thousands of times. If you want a truly unique and un-watered down RP experience, I suggest getting a pen and paper group together. Otherwise, stop being a tool.

 

Oh now I'm a "tool" for wanting an actual roleplay experience. Interesting.

 

How hard would it be, do you think, to respawn bosses with a random appearance and random name? You could probably do a little voice modulation effect and even make them sound slightly random. You killed General Rathkor. I killed General Stiltskin. It's a really minor adjustment but it's one that would make at least some better sense in a multiplayer environment.

 

 

 

The bottom line is people aren't thinking about what "multiplayer" can or should do to an RPG setting. We're just doing the same-old same-old even though it didn't make sense then and doesn't make sense now. And really, Bioware seems like the right company to stop and think about how an RPG story can be told in a multiplayer environment. They could be the ones changing the face of the genre.

 

I would love to see them try a new approach for the expansions. There will be more levels and more missions and while it's too late to do anything about levels 1-50, it's not too late to do something a bit more immersive for levels 51+.

[Ravager]

For a game that's all about story, there are an awful lot of silly bits in there.

 

I invariably end up killing an entire battalion of enemy troops and thinking, "You know, that wasn't so tough. Any one of those level 50 battle droids back at the base could have waltzed over here, shot the place up and killed the boss without so much as a dent. Why'd they have to send me?"

 

And once in a while I almost think they should send you into some impossible mission just to make a point. As it is, everything is just comes so easily: "And now I shall send you to your inevitable death by having you get the holocron from the pyramid, a feat which nobody has managed to do in 1000 years of trying! Mu-hu-hu-hu-hah-hah-hah-hah-hah!!!! ... oh, you're back already? Got the holocron? Just had to shoot some lightning at it? Huh. Well now I shall send you into this base to kill this guy that is totally unkillable for he has killed so many people that you shall never acc... oh, back already? Killed him, did you? And his 50 troops? Huh. Welp. Guess that's about it here then. Next planet!"

 

I once had a mission that was clearly impossible and thought, "Oh, this is neat! A mission that's clearly impossible! I wonder what twist the story may take now?" But it turned out they had just, for whatever reason, let me pick up a mission 10 levels over my level and I wasn't paying any attention.

 

Basically it's hard not to roleplay a cocky bastard considering I am apparently more powerful than everyone in the galaxy, because I never get any tasks that I can't ultimately complete. It's almost as if the entire universe was laid out with me conquering it in mind. I think I can count on one hand the number of times I have died trying to accomplish something, and those times were usually when I got really reckless because it was so easy up til then.

 

 

 

The only real exception to this seems to be PvP.

 

I do occasionally fail to win the Civil War or to stop the Republic from getting through the Voidstar.

 

Everything else is pretty much a given, though. I mean really, after the 10th time they tried to kill my Bounty Hunter, you'd think they'd just come to realize that I can't be killed. At least, not permanently.

 

Feels a bit silly, is all I'm saying.

 

With the "retrieve the holocron from the pyramid" quest, it is intentionally over the top. That is the joke, as it contrasts with Ffon's totally easy task.

 

"Ffon! You will translate these texts for Lord Zash upstairs. Slave, you will instead go to the monster-infested, terrible tomb of Marka Ragnos to uncover a holocron which has not been retrieved in 1,000 years. See you soon."

 

Also, the level 50 droids I imagine are there for gameplay sake - it protects the base from enemy players.

Edited February 3, 2012 by Ravager

[Jeia]

I think it should be kept in mind that there are many different ways to enjoy RP. There is no right or wrong way.

 

If someone prefers to see the game story line as IC, then fair enough. If those they are RP with do too, then it's not a problem at all.

 

Issues only arise when different styles clash and one tries to enforce their views on another. Just agree to disagree and don't RP together.

 

But that doesn't let BW off the hook for a poorly designed RP environment, with the worst character emotes I've ever seen! I could understand if it was 2000 and a whole new era to explore, but other games were doing it far better, even pre-2003.

[Slamz]

What I'm really talking about is "immersion".

 

A good roleplaying game immerses you in the story. You are not constantly having to fight the game over various inconsistencies.

 

 

For example, some MMORPGs have explained that the player-characters are all special entities and that's why they can't ever permanently die. SWTOR could start off explaining that you get access to some special, experimental technology that resurrects you and that's why you keep coming back to life but killing this Darth guy over there is forever.

 

That's not a million dollar change request. It would be like 4 sentences.

 

 

Other immersive changes could be a little tougher, but still feasible.

 

For example, you kill a robot. It dies and falls over. Fine. 60 seconds later, it just magically reappears out of thin air.

 

How how would it be to, I dunno, have them jetpack down from the sky? Or have a shuttle land and they jump out of it? Or they just spawn at some facility somewhere and come running to take those spots again? It's a pretty small change -- it might even just be cosmetic, but now the robots come back in some sensible way rather than just going "poof" out of the air. (What game was it that did this with your mount? Instead of just going "poof", it always ran in from just a bit offscreen... little cosmetic stuff like that can help keep a game immersive whereas "poof, here it is" is anti-immersive. It breaks the spell.)

 

 

 

Nobody seems to be thinking about ways to make MMORPGs more immersive.

 

We're just playing the same pretty anti-immersive, anti-roleplay hogwash we've been playing since the invention of the MUD.

 

This is not an MMORPG. Call it what it is. It's a Massively Multiplayer Action Adventure Game. MMOAAG. Yes you "can" roleplay but you "can" roleplay in Quake. That doesn't make Quake into a roleplaying game.

 

 

I think with just a little bit of thought, if we could just put WOW out of our minds for a moment, we could think of pretty simple ideas that would make MMORPGs a lot more immersive -- a lot more roleplayish.

[LoneRebel]

Dude. We can't do anything about it. That's how it is.

 

BioWare's concept here was basically to have an MMO with the story of a single-player RPG. Think KOTOR, only as an MMO.

 

I didn't get it at first, myself. But now I realize that each of the eight character classes is only supposed to be one currently unnamed person. Just like the Jedi Exile, before it was canonically established that the Exile's name is Meetra Surik and she is female. Before that, players could of course change the Exile's appearance and gender.

 

Each of the classes represents one great person who lived during that time. Like this currently unidentified Jedi Knight,

who slew the Sith Emperor. That's unarguably a great feat, even if that Emperor turned out to be just a clone.

 

 

Now this is where your suspension of disbelief comes in. For example, if you're a Trooper, an elite member of Havoc Squad, you just have to ignore all the other elite members of Havoc Squad, who were also sent to Ord Mantell to quell the insurgency there, who are also stationed at Fort Garnik, and who also have Aric Jorgan as a companion.

 

Or, you could take notice of them, but ignore everything that only one person could have done. For example, if you are a Trooper and you see another Trooper, then to you, that other Trooper is another elite Republic Special Forces member who can assist you on difficult missions. But he doesn't have Aric Jorgan as a companion, because only you do.

 

This reminds me of that humorous thread I once saw (in Story and Lore, I think) about a thousand beings of different species and genders suddenly showing up at Fa'athra's palace on Hutta, all claiming to be the Red Blade.

 

When it comes to story-related stuff, you just have to act like there's only one person of each class. After all, the NPCs do, don't they? Do as they do.

 

I think this is one reason the game has a four-man limit for parties. Notice that there are also four classes. This means that story-wise, an ideal party composition for a flashpoint is one of each class, so from a story point of view, all four of these great people came together at one time to do that mission.

 

Notice I said "at one time." Flashpoints and Heroic Quests are only supposed to have happened once. What, do you think that the Brentaal Star was boarded and Yadira Ban killed one thousand times? Don't tell me you're going to complain about that ruining your role-playing as well.

 

Basically, don't make such a big deal about it. The game combines features of an MMO with features of a single-player game. It's no problem for the rest of us.

[Jeia]

Personally, WoW is never in my mind, not a game I enjoyed for long

 

There were other (and older) games that were far better for supporting an RP environment.

 

But as there is another MMO on the horizon that has paid a lot more attention to what Rpers want, BW will have to pull their socks up or see many leave.

 

Whilst power gamers burn through content, Rpers (whether they quest IC or OOC) will stay with a game for years, if it provides what they want.

[Guildrum]

Personally, WoW is never in my mind, not a game I enjoyed for long

 

There were other (and older) games that were far better for supporting an RP environment.

 

But as there is another MMO on the horizon that has paid a lot more attention to what Rpers want, BW will have to pull their socks up or see many leave.

 

Whilst power gamers burn through content, Rpers (whether they quest IC or OOC) will stay with a game for years, if it provides what they want.

 

What new MMO is coming out?

[Jeia]

What new MMO is coming out?

 

The Secret World

[CosmicKat]

Rule #1 of mmorpgs: The best RP game ever is the one that is about to come out.

 

Rule #2 of mmorpgs: The worst RP game ever is the one that just got released.

[Jeia]

Rule #1 of mmorpgs: The best RP game ever is the one that is about to come out.

 

Rule #2 of mmorpgs: The worst RP game ever is the one that just got released.

 

I've been playing MMOs for too long to not be realistic and TSW is still in closed beta, so under NDA. However, the devs wanted to take the best from SWG and add it to TSW. We'll see.

 

The prime example of Rule 1 is STO. Remember the guild ships and open worlds? Never happened.

 

As for Rule 2, SWTOR isn't the worst RP game, it's certainly isn't supportive of RPers, but our guilds, in our community, are having a lot of fun RPing.

 

Rpers learn quickly to adapt, but they also need some bare bones to work with. Lets hope those get fleshed out more in the next few months.

Edited February 4, 2012 by Jeia

[Izorii]

Its a bit annoying true. The amount of things my character does which should be impossible all by level 30. The thing that annpys me most is that most of the quests I do should change the world. I have killed the Republic general, crushed his armies but I walk outside and nothing has changed. If we are going to be sent to do impossible things which change the galaxy then the galaxy should change.

[KitePolaris]

I was under the impression decent RPers played the game separately from their story. Do people really RP out their class story? I pretty much just treat all CSes as great people somehwere off in the world.

[JadeBranch]

This is NOT what make this game a 'not very good roleplaying game.' Instances, the fact that you are blocked out of many, many areas of the game because they are used for class storylines, and the issues outlined in the Roleplay Suggestions thread are what make this game a 'not very good roleplaying game.'

 

Although, ultimately what will decide that is whether or not or not the developers add anything to the game for roleplayers' sake.

[Slamz]

Dude. We can't do anything about it. That's how it is.

We can talk about it and hope for the best in expansions. That's what forums are for.

 

Each of the classes represents one great person who lived during that time.

Which is absolutely a perfect example of what's wrong with the story.

 

It simply is not taking multiplayer into account. Really I'm surprised this thread has gone on so long -- I thought I was just stating the obvious! I'm surprised people are arguing about it! I sort of thought people would read it, say, "Quite so, old chap" and go about their business but a lot of people actually seem to be defending the "single player storyline in a multiplayer setting" concept, even though it's clearly, obviously, anti-immersive and anti-roleplay.

 

Or, you could take notice of them, but ignore everything that only one person could have done. For example, if you are a Trooper and you see another Trooper, then to you, that other Trooper is another elite Republic Special Forces member who can assist you on difficult missions. But he doesn't have Aric Jorgan as a companion, because only you do.

Companions are another good example. The appearance customization items were a step in the right direction but why not just let us put them into the character creator and make them look however we want? Maybe the species is set but we can change all the details, including their name. All of the dialogues cleverly avoid ever saying my name (I'm always "Bounty Hunter" or "Sith", etc) and they could have done the same for companions.

 

I recognize it's probably too late to retool something like that but I can still shake my finger at them for building the entire game without once thinking of how it would look in a multiplayer setting, which is quite a large oversight when making an "MMORPG".

 

I was under the impression decent RPers played the game separately from their story. Do people really RP out their class story? I pretty much just treat all CSes as great people somehwere off in the world.

You are clearly meant to roleplay your story to some extent -- that's why every conversation gives you 3 choices of what to say. Granted it doesn't change much but the point is to get you into the game.

 

It's all about immersion.

 

Bioware clearly has not thought out "immersion" plus "multiplayer".

 

That's really the crux of my complaint.

 

Most other MMORPGs make the same mistake. I'm just astounded the Bioware made it too.

[hrafnalfarr]

*snip* (unless he's Deadpool) *snip*

 

 

I was considering rolling a character on an RP server. You just gave me my idea or a character. Now I just need to figure out a class and server. BH or Smuggler seems to go well with the whole Merc With A Mouth concept I suppose.

[MrDeas]

(Also, how did so many other people complete the Great Hunt? I saw their titles! Clearly I won the Great Hunt. And they only do them like once a year or something so there's no way all those other people were there. I would have noticed. And had to kill them. I think they are cheating. I was at the big meeting with Mandalore and I didn't see any of them there!

 

Also, you Republic people really need to sort out your Most Wanted list. I am the Most Wanted person. I don't know why all these other people are wearing that same title when it was clearly me that was the Most Wanted. Is there some sort of tie, or something? How can there be dozens of "Most Wanted" people? I think it's very sloppy and speaks of poor communication on the Republic side as clearly they have no idea who is really Most Wanted.)

 

You really are being picky, want a mission where you don't die, go play PvP or do Flashpoints at the level you're supposed to.

 

As for the titles, that's just being ridiculous. Don't want that? Then do play a single player. Otherwise, look past these minor things and just enjoy the game.

[JohanGill]

Its a bit annoying true. The amount of things my character does which should be impossible all by level 30. The thing that annpys me most is that most of the quests I do should change the world. I have killed the Republic general, crushed his armies but I walk outside and nothing has changed. If we are going to be sent to do impossible things which change the galaxy then the galaxy should change.

 

Any ideas about how to do this? It doesn't work just changing the world for everybody else over a mission that several other people also do, and if you change the way the character perceives the world, you need to think carefully about how interaction with other characters will work.

 

Example: Alderaan may, or may not, be blown to pieces. I see three main options here:

 

1) Only one character per server will have the opportunity to do this galaxy changing thing. That works, but gives one character a lot of influence over what all the other characters are facing. Expect long forum threads.

 

2) Alderaan may disappear and reappear, depending on how the last character doing this chose. This is not Dallas, and Alderaan is not Bobby Ewing. Expect long forum threads.

 

3) Alderaan does get destroyed, from your character's point of view. This might work, but we need to ensure that character interaction still works OK. You can't send a party to Alderaan if two of the members have seen it destroyed. Expect long forum threads about cooperation and guild problems.

 

 

So allowing change to the common game universe is not trivial. However, player-defined entities are a different story altogether. Imagine a guild owning a piece of land on Dromund Kaas, where this Great Bengal Tiger and other atrocities roam the jungle. The guild may then issue a challenge to other players, or players in the guild: slay the tiger, get epic reward from our cunning crafters! Then players may come, take the tiger out with a can of mace, beat the angry shopkeeper and his son to death with their own shoes, and get epic reward. The tiger mob will then never be seen again, unless the guild sets up something new.

 

Oh, and do expect long forum threads about large guilds taking all the rewards because they can react faster due to having more members.

Edited February 5, 2012 by JohanGill

[JohanGill]

We can talk about it and hope for the best in expansions. That's what forums are for.

 

 

Which is absolutely a perfect example of what's wrong with the story.

 

It simply is not taking multiplayer into account. Really I'm surprised this thread has gone on so long -- I thought I was just stating the obvious! I'm surprised people are arguing about it! I sort of thought people would read it, say, "Quite so, old chap" and go about their business but a lot of people actually seem to be defending the "single player storyline in a multiplayer setting" concept, even though it's clearly, obviously, anti-immersive and anti-roleplay.

 

[snip]

 

 

Interesting. This basically means that all quests should be removed entirely, or be rephrased into something that works for all, like "kill ten rats".

 

Simple things like "the monster took my apples" don't work either.

[MrDeas]

Its a bit annoying true. The amount of things my character does which should be impossible all by level 30. The thing that annpys me most is that most of the quests I do should change the world. I have killed the Republic general, crushed his armies but I walk outside and nothing has changed. If we are going to be sent to do impossible things which change the galaxy then the galaxy should change.

 

Then that stops your future chars and anyone else that will do that quest from ever doing it again. Think about it, the MMO world doesn't adapt to you because you're not the only one playing, there are millions, thousands on your server who you just being the first one there would change everything

[MrDeas]

I was under the impression decent RPers played the game separately from their story. Do people really RP out their class story? I pretty much just treat all CSes as great people somehwere off in the world.

 

They shouldn't. The one unwritten rule of RP is that you never change/adapt the pre-existing lore. This would need to apply to classes as well because of the choices you make. Agent end of Act 1 spoiler

 

 

At the end of Act 1 you're presented with a choice. Attack Darth Jadus preventing the eradicators killing anyone, join him, or accept the loss the eradicators will do and eventually turn them off. Most people with half a brain will realise that not everyone chooses the same choice so will never refer to it and this choice has consequences later on so shouldn't really refer to any of their class quest beyond. I'm an Agent, I'm on Tattooine carrying out an operation.

 

[JohanGill]

They shouldn't. The one unwritten rule of RP is that you never change/adapt the pre-existing lore. This would need to apply to classes as well because of the choices you make. Agent end of Act 1 spoiler

 

 

At the end of Act 1 you're presented with a choice. Attack Darth Jadus preventing the eradicators killing anyone, join him, or accept the loss the eradicators will do and eventually turn them off. Most people with half a brain will realise that not everyone chooses the same choice so will never refer to it and this choice has consequences later on so shouldn't really refer to any of their class quest beyond. I'm an Agent, I'm on Tattooine carrying out an operation.

 

Yes, there are things in the class story you just shouldn't mention in RP, like for a Jedi Consular, how you got your lightsaber.

[Akhilleos]

A game that makes it so hard you cant compleate the missions; you sir are a genious.

 

I do hope you get put in an instetution for this post.

Edited February 5, 2012 by Akhilleos

[MrDeas]

A game that makes it so hard you cant compleate the missions; you sir are a genious.

 

I do hope you get put in an instetution for this post.

 

To be fair, PvP requires you to die (unless you somehow go through without dying, in which case I'd say you spend far too much time on MMO's) in order to complete it (get Valor rank 100). You could in a way view that as a mission...just not in the normal sense.

[JohanGill]

Here's how I like to think of it:

 

I should roleplay. I should pretend that the game universe is "real" and act accordingly.

 

My character should not have to roleplay. He's in the universe and should simply take events at face value.

 

If I have to suspend disbelief, that's fine and normal.

 

If MY CHARACTER has to suspend disbelief, then we are going one level too deep and the only reason that happens is that it's not a very good story.

 

 

 

For example:

Your character shoots lightning from his hands. I have to suspend my disbelief about this in order to roleplay. No problem. My character does not have to suspend his disbelief -- to him it makes perfect sense that you are shooting lightning from your hands.

 

My character has just won The Great Hunt, an exclusive Bounty Hunter tournament for which there is only one winner. Upon completing it, he notices that, somehow, there are a couple hundred other people who also won The Great Hunt. That's bad because now you're asking MY CHARACTER to engage in a suspension of disbelief.

 

 

That's just bad story design.

 

 

Who says the character sees that text? I always considered the blue text to be for the player behind the keyboard, not necessarily for the character in the game. Play it anyway you like. Having said that, options to control those texts are probably a good thing.