Sabbathius Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 Dude, you HAVE to lay off your hate against Deception ... ... ... Seriously, Pure Deception assassins are dead meat without Dark charge You say this, and they you're surprised why I and so many others are hating on Deception? It's a joke spec. Light armor and melee? Don't float. Not unless you have insane burst or godly defensive cooldowns. Deception has neither. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tamernator Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 (edited) Originally Posted by TSLlolz Dude, you HAVE to lay off your hate against Deception ... ... ... Seriously, Pure Deception assassins are dead meat without Dark charge OMG lol , i can not stand that lack of logic , say me that you are kid (it will explain lack of logic) , or maybe you are possessd ? Edited February 2, 2012 by Tamernator Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coldhugs Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 (edited) After nerf goes live hybrid 27/11/3 will be better than 27/14/0 hybrid http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#200rcRokrskrZhGb0zZc.1 If you're saying 27/11/3 will be stronger than 27/14 is on live, I disagree. Edited February 2, 2012 by Coldhugs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oktaine Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 I cant say I'm too happy about all of this either. They took what is kind of a messed up class that people had figured out how to deal with and did away with that. I guess its time to break out the marauder...DOH. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FuzionR Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 our survivability is ****** (light armor means your damage is supposed to make up for the low survivability) You're obviously playing the class wrong or have bad gear if you think our survivability is garbage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sabbathius Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 I guess its time to break out the marauder...DOH. So funny you said that. I'm leveling mine right now as well. There's really precious little they can do to mess up that class. It doesn't tank, it doesn't heal, it doesn't have CC and not much of utility (long cooldown), and it already wears medium armor. Short of stripping it naked or nerfing its damage to nothing, there's nothing they can do to wreck it. Really, probably the safest class to play right now, aside from Sorc and Merc which seem to be nerf-immune because they form the bulk of the player base and BW won't risk nerfing them any time soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TSLlolz Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 You say this, and they you're surprised why I and so many others are hating on Deception? It's a joke spec. Light armor and melee? Don't float. Not unless you have insane burst or godly defensive cooldowns. Deception has neither. Yes, that's exactly why we NEED dark charge. It compensates the fact that we use light armor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TSLlolz Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 OMG lol , i can not stand that lack of logic , say me that you are kid (it will explain lack of logic) , or maybe you are possessd ? lack of logic? roflˇ People are pissed because most Deception Assassins would throw on a shield off-hand and use Dark Charge or stance dance to gain some durability. This makes it so you are not able to do that any longer.....not to mention that stance dance would now cost 100 force a whack. It's just absurd to me that this is what they decide to focus on rather than fixing some of the bigger issues in the game. Why don't we tinker with a middle of the pack class, that deserves a buff according to most opinions, and gut it's hybrid possibilities, phase out the majority of it's pvp specs and pigeon hole it's roles. What these guys are smoking at the Dev meetings is anyone's guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodobson Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 (edited) The devs want each charge to be tree specific. That means if you are deeper than the second Tier (10 points) you should be using the specified charge. From a design stand point I can get behind this, but it has to also transfer to other classes. We found some hybrid builds that were creating unintended playstyles. Some people have latched onto those and the loss of those styles is understandably upsetting, but you will need to adapt as this is par for the course in an mmo. If the class in rendered non viable by such changes, other compensation will be given. I see quite a bit of concern over Deception's misalignment among utility, damage, and survivability. If there is indeed imbalance there, everyone needs to cite specific examples. This is very hard to do, because you can't just say "class X gets this and we don't". You have to look at a class' entire skill kit. Does Insulation not put our armor value on par with Medium Armor? How far off is it? Is Madness ok with this armor value and Deception is not because Madness is more range oriented and has self healing? Then perhaps another armor boost is needed deeper in the Deception tree. Deception doesn't need Dark Charge, it may just need more armor. Those are the questions we need to ask and analyze. What truly separates a Deception Assassin from a Concealment Operative? (I choose this comparison because they serve similar roles). Edited February 2, 2012 by Rodobson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TSLlolz Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 Does Insulation not put our armor value on par with Medium Armor? How far off is it? Is Madness ok with this armor value and Deception is not because Madness is more range oriented and has self healing? Then perhaps another armor boost is needed deeper in the Deception tree. Deception doesn't need Dark Charge, it may just need more armor. I can agree with this. I'd be okay with dropping Dark Charge if we'd have more armor and/or defense, since we ARE a melee class, thus we require more survivability if we lose Dark Charge now. And regarding your Conc Op vs. Dec Assa differences, I've explained the majority of it in one of my earlier comments here, but I can unfold it more and go on about it (I have both a Dec Assa and a Conc Operative.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WickedImage Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 You're obviously playing the class wrong or have bad gear if you think our survivability is garbage. Ignorant statement. You have no idea how that person is playing the class nor do you know their build. I know these changes won't affect some of us very much, like myself, but I can totally get on board with people being very upset over this. It absolutely changes the landscape of assassins for the worse. So many other MORE IMPORTANT things they could have been focusing on but they chose to get a bug up their arse about assassin hybriding? It's laughable. For goodness sake BW, learn to prioritize things! The counter part to our class is the most complained about class now, not hybrid specs used on the mediocre assassin class.....most times I don't feel an explanation is needed by the devs. This...? I think it needs explaining as to why this was SOOOO important they just HAD to take away hybriding? Maybe more buffing of the dps trees along with this nerf would have been more acceptable? Why take even more "food" away from an already "hungry" advanced class when other classes are running around so bloated and stuffed to the gills with their gluttony? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delillo Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 I don't really agree with the spirit of this post. If 80% of assassins are rolling in dark charge, despite being heavily spec'd in other trees, thats a serious design problem. So these proposed changes do succeed in balancing out the viability of the trees somewhat. Deception remains basically unchanged and madness received a buff. The question of Assassin's overall power is a completely different question honestly. It's also one thats hard to address. I think one of the other reasons for the recent changes was to limit the shock super combos. Being able to take Induction and Energize in the same build probably proved too good, especially as shock pretty much bypasses all defenses. (And defense in general has proven to be less effective in PvP than the Devs intended). Maybe "too good" is the wrong way to put it- maybe "too good to pass up". I think they envision shock, like discharge, as a core ability that every spec uses and modifies in some way, but that you can't just cherry pick all the shock based talents to concentrate your build around a single ability. It would be nice to have some statement about their intentions here. The 100 change to charges shows that they do not want an assassin changing roles mid-combat. But not WHY they don't want that. In any case I do see a certain amount of logic in these changes and class balance in this game remains remarkably strong, especially so close to launch, so I find the call for heads to roll absolutely ridiculous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kainsec Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 As a firm player of the 31/0/10 spec while this doesn't affect me directly but I get the anger and annoyance. The whole reason I moved into 31/0/10 was even though I could be successful in the other stances darkness spec is more forgiving of mistakes and poor teamwork then the die when someone glances in your direction DPS specs. I have played the ever popular hybrid specs and found them to be most fun and probably would play them more often if I wasn't also wasn't tanking PvE content all the time as well as PvP. What I want the Combat and Classes Dev is to lay out the vision for this class. What do you see as working well for sins, what needs work, is this step one in a larger process, are you happy with the way sins are working atm, what do you see their niche in DPS specs as, and do you think their survivability is on par with other DPS classes in DPS stance, why did you feel these changes where needed? We all know we can tank good great given that this is a tank class I am glad we can do that well at least. We have a glass cannon back end burst based tree that has the survivability of a high front end burst class. So the confusion here is why is our survivability trash if we don't do all our damage up front? We have a glass cannon dot based tree with 3 dots. Glass cannon with long duration DoTs. Glass Cannon with long duration DoTs. What is wrong with this statement. You don't put a DoT tree on a class who is not likely to live long enough to take advantage of them. 2 of which are long duration dots so they deal crap damage and need little maintenance. At least Mara DoT spec is all short duration DoTs so they do hit hard. So the confusion here is why does a glass cannon class depend on long duration dots for damage? Heck even the stance bonuses of our non dark charge stances all suck in comparison to other classes stances. It's not like we where doing omgwtfpwnbbq damage in our DPS specs while dark charged. In our highest burst spec we lost our highest burst ability and madness spec was never a high damage spec it was a sustained damage spec. So I am confused why sins aren't allowed to have a medium damage and medium survivability build when other tanks get the same thing. If I knew they had a roadmap to future changes to sins and this was just step one it would be one thing and I would be here protesting against the /rage but without a clear goal of what they are going to do or what our DPS role is I got nothing atm. At least if they are going to nerf us could they please take the time to fix our Assassins training so we get the damage boost. It's not like they aren't already screwing with our abilities certainly someone has the time to take a look at that perk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fashooba Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 I play a powertech and an assassin pretty much side by side .. and I gotta say preventing any spec from using any stance is putting assassins on par with powertech. Not sure how other classes function, bit for powertech you can't go 3 tiers up without picking up skills exclusive to that stance. I think everyone needs to step back and look at how these changes affect the game in relation to changes everywhere else rather than how it affects your dps or survival rate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sabbathius Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 I play a powertech and an assassin pretty much side by side .. and I gotta say preventing any spec from using any stance is putting assassins on par with powertech. Not sure how other classes function, bit for powertech you can't go 3 tiers up without picking up skills exclusive to that stance. You couldn't be more wrong. Look up Carolina Parakeet spec, currently arguably THE most popular PvP spec for PTs. Then look up Taugrim's "Iron Fist" spec, which is also a hybrid. Yes, as PT you put a few points into skills that are affected by the stance. But the MAIN skills, like Prototype Particle Acceperator, do NOT require a specific stance. Superheated Gas and Superheated Rail are good examples. Yes, both benefit from Combustible Gas stance. But the Superheated Rail functions just fine without Combustible Gas stance. And Iron Fist spec uses Retractable blade, which is 11 points into Prototype and does not require a cylinder to function. But mark my words - if they are doing it to us, then Powertechs are likely next on the list. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arzhanin Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 Hey folks, While we do appreciate and read feedback, both positive and negative, we do ask that said feedback is constructive and respectful. If you need some guidelines for doing so, we do have a post here via our Dev Tracker that explains it: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=141421 We'll be closing this thread, but do encourage folks to post constructive feedback about the game in future threads. Thanks for your understanding! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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