1.1.2 Marauder/Sentinel changes are dps LOSS not increase

[cosmasterkiller]

The old system: (you can see a small test sample and a continuation of this discussion here)

The current system tooltips do not match up with actual in game math. The currrent system is doing the following:

Bleedout is currently giving us 30% damage to all bleed effects, not crit chance.

Deep Wound is unconfirmed. Without watching and counting 1000 ticks (or combat log) we can only assume it is affecting Rupture's direct damage correctly.

Hemorrhage is adding 4% instead of 6% additional damage to bleed damage. The first point provides ~2% increase, each additional point is ~1%.

 

New system proposed:

Hemorrhage: 15% bleed damage increase

Bleedout: 30% critical multiplier increase

 

Using the following stats as an example:

131 unmodified unskilled Rupture/Deadly Saber dot

25% crit chance

70% crit multiplier

 

Old System

In the old system with Bleedout, Hemorrhage:

131 * 1.3 * 1.04 = 177 normal dot

131 * 1.3 * 1.04 * 1.7 = 301 critical dot

 

To explain those numbers we have the 131 base dot (no skills). We multiply that number times 1.3 for the 30% increase we WERE receiving from Bleedout. We then multiply times 1.04 for the 4% increase we WERE receiving from Hemorrhage. In the 2nd row, we multiply 1.7 for the critical multiplier.

 

Let's normalize that across 1000 dots. With a 25% crit chance that is 750 normal dots and 250 critical dots.

177 * 750 = 132,750 normal dot damage

301 * 250 = 75,250 critical damage

Grand total = 208,000

 

New System

In the new system with Bleedout, Hemorrhage:

131 * 1.15 = 150.65 normal dot

131 * 1.15 * 2 = 301 critical dot

 

131 is still our base unskilled dot. The 1.15 is the new Hemorrhage (3 points at 5% for each point = 15%). The 1.3 is the "corrected" Bleedout critical multiplier number. We are multiplying times 2 because 70% is the base critical multiplier and Bleedout provides an additional 30% critical multiplier. We would assume it is additive. If that is incorrect and Bleedout is multiplicative then critical dot is 332 (and the final number still show new system a dps loss). We don't think Bleedout is multiplicative though.

 

So lets normalize the new system across 1000 dots. Same as above, 25% base crit chance gives us 750 normal dots and 250 critical dots.

151 * 750 = 114,000

301 * 250 = 75,250

Grand total = 189,250

 

What about Juyo form and Juyo Mastery? The new system does value critical chance more than the old system, but you would still need over 98% crit chance for the new system to overtake the old system.

 

TL;DR

The old system and new system critical dot amounts are exactly the same. All that has changed is non-crit dots will be less than the old system's non-crit dots.

 

Unless there is something we are missing, this is a damage decrease.

Edited February 2, 2012 by cosmasterkiller

[drans]

Hey, at least your class got acknowledged.

 

Still waiting on those Jugg DPS buffs.

[neocoma]

Still waiting on those Jugg DPS buffs.

 

Wont come. They honestly think juggs are fine even after fixing the tooltip of shatterso everyone of us could see it now.

[Ryxxi]

Great and they say that this will increase our dps, cleary... Edited February 2, 2012 by Ryxxi

[Mazzrad]

If they aim to improve our dps... did they even do the math on the so called "damage improvement" ?

 

A member of this forum has to do the math for Bioware, pretty sad.

[Soonerjohn]

Where did they say it was supposed to be a dps increase?

[Mazzrad]

Where did they say it was supposed to be a dps increase?

 

Annihilation

 

Hemorrhage: Now increases damage dealt by bleed effects by 5% per point.

Bleedout: Now correctly modifies critical damage dealt by bleed effects.

Changes to Hemorrhage and Bleedout result in an overall increase in Damage Per Second.

 

 

Go figure.

[Selixx]

Actually, it IS a dps increase, because if you followed the Marauder forums, you would have seen the thread about our +30% crit multiplier passive (for bleeds) currently being broken. No matter how they modify the skill, it will be a dps increase at this point. Furthermore, hem. is being modified from a 6% bleed damage increase, to 15%. Sounds like a buff. Edited February 2, 2012 by Selixx

[cosmasterkiller]

Actually, it IS a dps increase, because if you followed the Marauder forums, you would have seen the thread about our +30% crit multiplier passive (for bleeds) currently being broken. No matter how they modify the skill, it will be a dps increase at this point.

 

Please read the post carefully.

 

The old system: (you can see a small test sample and a continuation of this discussion here)

The current system tooltips do not match up with actual in game math. The currrent system is doing the following:

Bleedout is currently giving us 30% damage to all bleed effects, not crit chance.

Deep Wound is unconfirmed. Without watching and counting 1000 ticks (or combat log) we can only assume it is affecting Rupture's direct damage correctly.

Hemorrhage is adding 4% instead of 6% additional damage to bleed damage. The first point provides ~2% increase, each additional point is ~1%.

[Aseku]

I don't understand why you are multiplying by 2 for a base of 70%. To me, the changes appear to give us a standard damage increase of 2%, and an additional 30% crit chance ontop of the base 70%. Thats not even counting any of the spec + crit chance talents. I play a Sentinel, and while I like the 30% damage boost, I'd prefer that it actually affect what its supposed to. It isn't a nerf if they are correction what a skill is supposed to be doing, if its behaving incorrectly.

 

Edit: I see why you are multiplying by 2 now, but your normalizing at the same rate as in the previous system, rather than the new system's increased crit chance. The new crit chance would alter the 25% crit chance in your formula.

Edited February 2, 2012 by Aseku

[cosmasterkiller]

I don't understand why you are multiplying by 2 for a base of 70%. To me, the changes appear to give us a standard damage increase of 2%, and an additional 30% crit chance ontop of the base 70%. Thats not even counting any of the spec + crit chance talents. I play a Sentinel, and while I like the 30% damage boost, I'd prefer that it actually affect what its supposed to. It isn't a nerf if they are correction what a skill is supposed to be doing, if its behaving incorrectly.

 

I assume you mean in the new system. Base critical multiplier of 70% plus 30% from Bleedout = 100% increase or *2.

 

The rest of the crit chances are the same in old and new systems. So there is no advantages in the new system versus the old system.

 

-edit- You are confusing critical chance with critical multiplier. We do not receive 30% crit chance in the new system, we receive 30% crit multiplier. Good news is that since it is from a skill selection it is not effected by diminishing returns, but even then it does not pull ahead of the old system.

 

The only way this is can be considered a dps increase...is if the old system worked like the old tooltips had said. The old working system did more damage than the new system and the new system will do more damage than what the old tooltips would have proposed (but was never applied to the game).

Edited February 2, 2012 by cosmasterkiller

[Aseku]

See edits to previous post. Reposted here:

 

In your formula, your normalizing at 25% crit rate as you did with the old system. The higher crit chance would alter your normalization rates, thus resulting in more crits, but lowered normal damage. The altered crit rate would compensate, or even improve DPS as crits are more powerful. At least, thats what I'm seeing.

[cosmasterkiller]

Bleedout: Now correctly modifies critical damage dealt by bleed effects.

 

This is referencing critical multiplier not critical chance.

Edited February 2, 2012 by cosmasterkiller

[avpan]

I would have to say yeah this is almost like a nerf. It almost seems like there should be a talent to increase our crit chance by a bit for this to be dps increase. I mean most of our high end gear lacks in crit rating gear, focuses more on power.

[DeltaGun]

See edits to previous post. Reposted here:

 

In your formula, your normalizing at 25% crit rate as you did with the old system. The higher crit chance would alter your normalization rates, thus resulting in more crits, but lowered normal damage. The altered crit rate would compensate, or even improve DPS as crits are more powerful. At least, thats what I'm seeing.

 

The crit rate in the same and old system are the same.

[Islandborn]

You know the devs read these forums. If what you say is true I would like to see their math that says this is a dps increase. At least a CM with the information because if it is a decrease they will be hurting Sets in endgame big time and the I think should be enough to for them to let us see their math.

[Jageera]

It took an interview with TotalBiscuit (which didn't infer that they were aware that the overwhelming majority of players hated the changes) for the devs to shed any light on the Op massacre. Why do you think they'd say anything about Marauder changes?

[Veimi]

It took an interview with TotalBiscuit (which didn't infer that they were aware that the overwhelming majority of players hated the changes) for the devs to shed any light on the Op massacre. Why do you think they'd say anything about Marauder changes?

 

And suddenly, majority of players were wrong - ops/scoundrels dps output change has meant absolutely nothing. And now they can stunlock. People really shouldn't cry out loud considering that BW most likely does the math. I mean they ARE PROFESSIONALS, not some random forum lolguys implementing changes for the lulz

[Mazzrad]

And suddenly, majority of players were wrong - ops/scoundrels dps output change has meant absolutely nothing. And now they can stunlock. People really shouldn't cry out loud considering that BW most likely does the math. I mean they ARE PROFESSIONALS, not some random forum lolguys implementing changes for the lulz

 

But they are human and do mistakes - and the Marauder / Sentinel change obviously is one.

[Pantheros]

Actually, it IS a dps increase, because if you followed the Marauder forums, you would have seen the thread about our +30% crit multiplier passive (for bleeds) currently being broken. No matter how they modify the skill, it will be a dps increase at this point. Furthermore, hem. is being modified from a 6% bleed damage increase, to 15%. Sounds like a buff.

 

You literally read the title and then posted a reply. READ THE POST FOR GODS SAKE MAN.

[Leonalis]

I love calculations which are based on broken systems Edited February 2, 2012 by Leonalis

[Jageera]

And suddenly, majority of players were wrong - ops/scoundrels dps output change has meant absolutely nothing. And now they can stunlock. People really shouldn't cry out loud considering that BW most likely does the math. I mean they ARE PROFESSIONALS, not some random forum lolguys implementing changes for the lulz

I'm sure all the pve ops are rejoicing now that they can stunlock bosses, despite the fact that their abysmal dps is now even worse.

[Veimi]

I'm sure all the pve ops are rejoicing now that they can stunlock bosses, despite the fact that their abysmal dps is now even worse.

 

PvE scoundrels pve dps is more than fine. They actually destroy mobs/bosses most of the time if geared. </offtopic>

[Filouch]

Guys, I´ve got an idea about this "dps increase". They say it´s "Overall" dps increase, did you calculated the resulting dmg when counting the ZEN uptime? Because if the crit chance is 100% (Zen), it seems like a buff actually. Only question about this is if the Zen have enough uptime to keep the resulting dps higher than according the pre-patch system.

[Azarii]

PvE scoundrels pve dps is more than fine. They actually destroy mobs/bosses most of the time if geared. </offtopic>

 

Lol, right...