xneoxxx Posted December 15, 2011 Share Posted December 15, 2011 logic......READ! some people ENJOY having goals!!! and setting a chalenge!!! DM is a way of show it!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth_Sinistor Posted December 15, 2011 Share Posted December 15, 2011 The "Hardcore" raiders seem fairly certain that a meter is "essential" for raiding, so I say let them have one, but for the rest of us doing the 4-mans no thanks - for us it's a game, not a second job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patstone Posted December 15, 2011 Share Posted December 15, 2011 logic......READ! some people ENJOY having goals!!! and setting a chalenge!!! DM is a way of show it!! Extra !!!!!!!!'s don't make your post better On topic: If your goal is to be on top of a list, try competitive gaming as the above poster suggested. A DM is all relative, you can be the top in your group, but the bottom of every other group. The challenge in a place where you would use a DM is killing the boss, if that happens everyone did their job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gumbalaia Posted December 15, 2011 Share Posted December 15, 2011 People don't seem to understand that without dps meters, there's no telling why a raid fails. So, either game is going to be so easy, that any evaluation of damage / healing is not needed, thus making the game boring for serious raiders. Or the end game is going to be pointlessly unpredictable. Also no dps makes random raids totally impossible. You could be having 4 dps just spamming one skill doing abysmal dps just for the kicks. There are people who will be doing everything they can to ruin the fun for other people, and this way they could do it without even being kicked out of the groups. They might fully know the tactics for the boss, be able to avoid all **** and such, but decide just not to do any damage I do agree with the notion that DPS meters suck majorly for leveling and doing some normal instances. It easily leads into any fresh people being kicked out of groups for doing just some average damage. BUT, in the leveling/normal instances, without the meter there's danger that people get kicked only due to having bad gear, even if they would do really good damage for the gear they're wearing. Just my 2 cents. I really don't care one way or another since I wont be doing any hardcore raiding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cfullard Posted December 15, 2011 Share Posted December 15, 2011 Yes, this is exactly what I want. Some ignorant nerd who is less concerned about having fun and more concerned about such wonderful phrases that were coined in World of Warcraft : Gearscore, Item Level, Recount, DPS, Achievement linking. *facepalm* Day 3 of the early access and people are already more concerned with DPS then they are with actually enjoying the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCCamel Posted December 15, 2011 Share Posted December 15, 2011 (edited) Argue it's too simliar to WoW, complain when it doesn't have a feature from WoW Edited December 15, 2011 by DCCamel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zerqje Posted December 15, 2011 Share Posted December 15, 2011 Chances are that if you are doing a hardmode your guild will know what to expect from each player. they probably also know how good you are at the game due to the fact that 4 player FP's that are on heroic are more demanding that the normal mode operations Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mutharex Posted December 15, 2011 Share Posted December 15, 2011 I HATE all these emo kids crying about DM and about having fun!! sorry we are no emo like you having fun for us is pushing our self and trying to be better and seting goals trying out new builds!! all this is done with DM. too many stay at home emos cry about a chalenge or anything that shows skill. sigh. pls go back to skyrim I am pretty sure I saw the same argument made AGAINST Damage Meters.... it actually made more sense,too! Maybe because it had correct spelling and grammar, and that made it look like it hadn't been written by a frustrated emo kid... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scelerant Posted December 15, 2011 Share Posted December 15, 2011 Or how about you just play the GAME for FUN and not think about meters A large part of my fun is getting better, knowing where I went wrong, seeing how I measure up against other players and much more along the same lines. So for me a meter or at the very least a combat log is something I consider a requirement. Everyone has their idea of fun, lets not force people to play according to one definition of fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patstone Posted December 15, 2011 Share Posted December 15, 2011 The "Hardcore" raiders seem fairly certain that a meter is "essential" for raiding, so I say let them have one, but for the rest of us doing the 4-mans no thanks - for us it's a game, not a second job. it's true that there is that group out there that believes this. I just wonder if they've ever participated without one. Again, I'm not against them, but any calculations that you would need to be able to theorycraft, check performance, see damage values, see who is standing in what, etc. can be done after the raid through the use of a combat log parse (I know combat logging isnt in yet either). I've seen far to many people give up when the boss is at 90% saying "oh we don't have the dps, look at that guy way down tehre" jsut because they have a meter to stare at instead of playing the game. Again, meters are fine to have in the game, and I will use one if they are, but some of these arguments are ridiculous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patstone Posted December 15, 2011 Share Posted December 15, 2011 (edited) A large part of my fun is getting better, knowing where I went wrong, seeing how I measure up against other players and much more along the same lines. So for me a meter or at the very least a combat log is something I consider a requirement. Everyone has their idea of fun, lets not force people to play according to one definition of fun. See this I can agree with, seeing how you measure up against other players of the same class/spec. I would love a world-of-Logs type parser in this game, nothing better than seeing you ranked on X boss fight. I jsut don't think it needs to be seen DURING the fight. Edited December 15, 2011 by Patstone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrayonOfDoom Posted December 15, 2011 Share Posted December 15, 2011 (edited) I wouldn't mind having damage meters in the game, but t all the "you have to have it so yo uknow if you are hitting the enrage timer" crowd: Did the boss die? Yes - You didn't hit the enrage and have enough dps, grats! No - Well did more than 1 person die during the fight? If yes, then you may have enough dps, but stop standing in fire to find out - Did no one die during the fight? You do not have enough dps Missed the relevant part. It's not whether you have enough dps or not, that's self evident by the boss dying or not. It's about how to fix not having enough dps. It's about having a tool to analyze who's not pulling their weight. See this I can agree with, seeing how you measure up against other players of the same class/spec. I would love a world-of-Logs type parser in this game, nothing better than seeing you ranked on X boss fight. I jsut don't think it needs to be seen DURING the fight. Simply have a combatlogging feature that updates only after exiting combat? No in-combat DPS meter "problems", but still a feature to analyze how a fight went. Edited December 15, 2011 by CrayonOfDoom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patstone Posted December 15, 2011 Share Posted December 15, 2011 Missed the relevant part. It's not whether you have enough dps or not, that's self evident by the boss dying or not. It's about how to fix not having enough dps. It's about having a tool to analyze who's not pulling their weight. And that can all be done with a parser that is evaluated after everyone has had time to cool off and analyze performance with a level head. I know in the guilds I have been in it gets pertty heated if we can't kill a boss in a timely manner, and people can get very peeved. Again, DM are fine if used correctly, I jsut disagree with some of the arguments for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delove Posted December 15, 2011 Share Posted December 15, 2011 Meters make's people act like jerk's oh im awesome and your not this is ment for fun not to be an ****** nozzle like most people are in Wow yeah i use recount but not to be a **** to people that are doin lesss dps then me i will carry someone to a certain point but if u keep standin in fire and dying cause u just wanna get carried u will get the boot:D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patstone Posted December 15, 2011 Share Posted December 15, 2011 Simply have a combatlogging feature that updates only after exiting combat? No in-combat DPS meter "problems", but still a feature to analyze how a fight went. Thats a nice idea as well, faster feedback than a complete out of game thing, but no shiny bars for someone to stare at during the fight, I think I really like that idea Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonathanTheBlack Posted December 15, 2011 Share Posted December 15, 2011 (edited) You can have your damage meter if I can prevent you from seeing my damage show up on your meter. Otherwise, go back to WoW or Rift. Edited December 15, 2011 by JonathanTheBlack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DontDenyRy Posted December 15, 2011 Share Posted December 15, 2011 If you find the game hard enough to need aides, I suggest playing something more attuned to your capability. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colobulous Posted December 15, 2011 Share Posted December 15, 2011 (edited) You can have your damage meter if I can prevent you from seeing my damage show up on your meter. Otherwise, go back to WoW or Rift. Sure, just never group with me, and I won't even care about your damage. Or do you expect people in a team with you to not care about your performance? If you find the game hard enough to need aides, I suggest playing something more attuned to your capability. Ah, the condescending elitism is strong in the anti-meter crowd. And yet they have such a strong anti-elitist component. Tools are used because they work better, and believe it or not, a computer is many many thousands of times better than you ever will be at discrete mathematics. Edited December 15, 2011 by Colobulous Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurnea Posted December 15, 2011 Share Posted December 15, 2011 I wouldn't mind having damage meters in the game, but t all the "you have to have it so yo uknow if you are hitting the enrage timer" crowd: Did the boss die? Yes - You didn't hit the enrage and have enough dps, grats! No - Well did more than 1 person die during the fight? If yes, then you may have enough dps, but stop standing in fire to find out - Did no one die during the fight? You do not have enough dps And that last bit is sort of the point: Having damage meters is of great benefit in figuring out how to get more dps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patstone Posted December 15, 2011 Share Posted December 15, 2011 And that last bit is sort of the point: Having damage meters is of great benefit in figuring out how to get more dps. How is it going to help during the fight? Are you going to hit your keys harder to get more dps? See my above posts for the things I support. Some people have had some decent ideas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mathias_dis Posted December 15, 2011 Author Share Posted December 15, 2011 How is it going to help during the fight? Are you going to hit your keys harder to get more dps? See my above posts for the things I support. Some people have had some decent ideas If somebody is doing bad on damage meter, there is not always demanded an instant change. Then you have theorycraft, and can look through the persons rotation and spec to see what that person can do better. Thats from a raid perspective. Of course in 4 man groupe its different. People cant just kick you out if you do bad dps. They can inform you and you can care to do something about it or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keller Posted December 15, 2011 Share Posted December 15, 2011 How come some people not love the damage meter!? I mean they have clearly not been playing mmos hardcore enough. Damage meters are like a game within a game. It is also a good thing to keep track on who is doing well, and who needs to step their game up. I personally have always been loving the damage meter, because me and my guild friends in various games battle with this s***. How can you know in a end game guild if the person you just recruited into your roster, is doing as expected? Damage is very important factor! Bottom line... if you dont like the idea about a damage meter, go back to fecking Skyrim if you can not tell by observing other players if they deliver or holding back, you need to watch some more Rick Ashley videos. Seriously most friends I have play the game by sound. They know only by listening what abilities someone is using or when they are getting hit by something. Hardcore my behind.... dps-ers refusing to perform a certain action like interrupt or something like that, only not to fall behind on the damage meters. Next thing you will demand after damage meters is tank and spank bosses? So you do not have to waste time running around or doing something intelligent, only spam your buttons to have maximum damage output? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurnea Posted December 15, 2011 Share Posted December 15, 2011 How is it going to help during the fight? Are you going to hit your keys harder to get more dps? See my above posts for the things I support. Some people have had some decent ideas It would give me a better indication of what rotations are working out better for me if I can see in-game performance. Lacking that, a combat parser alone would be almost as good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patstone Posted December 15, 2011 Share Posted December 15, 2011 If somebody is doing bad on damage meter, there is not always demanded an instant change. Then you have theorycraft, and can look through the persons rotation and spec to see what that person can do better. Thats from a raid perspective. Of course in 4 man groupe its different. People cant just kick you out if you do bad dps. They can inform you and you can care to do something about it or not. And everything that you mentioned can be done without an in combat DM, which has been discussed in this thread. At this point I feel I'm jsut repeating myself from 10 posts ago and its getting to me, which means its time to go get a cup of coffee. Again, I'm not against DM, I just don't think its as mandatory as some do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurnea Posted December 15, 2011 Share Posted December 15, 2011 Hardcore my behind.... dps-ers refusing to perform a certain action like interrupt or something like that, only not to fall behind on the damage meters. Most meters I know of track stuff like interrupts as well, and any decent group I've been in will call people out for not handling basic survivalability measures like interrupts, cc, what have you. "Yeah, I did top dps!" "Boo, meters show you never switched targets to adds. Learn to burn down the adds or you're getting replaced." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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