Gear based PvP is amateur hour

[IThrowRocks]

I understand this argument but people who complain about pvp gear in swtor are silly imo.

 

Firstly, I believe that a sense of progression is needed in this game to keep people playing and enjoying the game. Guild Wars does not do that and is more skill based with an even stat playing field. It might be a very popular game but it is not on the level of games in the same exact archetype as SWTOR. SWTOR/WoW/insert mmorpg make more money than the games like guild wars. The market is larger for them. To really look at this you need to get rid of your hardcore gamer viewpoint and think like a businessman. These companies are not interested in making hardcore gamers happy. They are interested in money. Why else would you create a company that makes video games? Appealing to the masses is the smarter move with video games. Look at WoW. Lowering raid group numbers, simplifying gear, adding pandas for Christ sake; WoW has increased its subscription count and gained popularity over the years because they are starting to market to a larger group (casual gamers). Hardcore gamers are always going to play, casual gamers need to be enticed. SWTOR’s decision to have a progression based pvp system is a business segment decision. Simple as that.

 

Secondly, I really have a hard time understanding why people are complaining about gear. Champion gear is stupid easy to obtain in this game. This game is designed to net you 20 bags a week simply from dailys/weeklys. If you enjoy doing warzones, you’ll get even more through comms. Give it 2-4 weeks and you will easily be full cent/champ. BM is a different story since it is a long grind to valor 60, but the difference between champion and BM is nothing that should genuinely create a problematic gap. I dinged 50 5 days ago and I have farmed about 25 bags since then acquiring 6 champ items and 1 cent item easily putting me on par with my opponents. Sure people in full champ gear have an edge on me but I play a pretty good sage and still succeed a lot. Everyone who enjoys PvP is going to get to BM and then it becomes a level field. But progression is a driving factor.

 

Thirdly , how can a game have a successful PvP system without gear while allowing for a successful PvE system without the use of PvP gear? Champion gear is honestly the easiest and quickest way to start stepping into normal mode ops. PvP gear is not as good for PvE but it is still useful. And honestly the game would not have successful PvP if they had nothing to show for their effort while PvE content gave gear. You can spend hours doing this and receive a pat on the back or spend hours doing that and get epic gear. PvP just got less popular and now the game’s PvP is dead and you will start complaining about that. So even if they do negate gear upgrades in PvP, this type of system would kill PvP because the population will decrease with no reward while there is another segment in the game that hands out cookies for playing.

 

Fact of the matter is the game is designed like this because it is how these games are designed. If you want a game like guild wars then go play guild wars. But this is a completely different game style and it is set up in this fashion for a reason. If you like to eat apples don’t go to the banana stand and start yelling at the owner. Your just making yourself look like a fool honestly.

[EternalFinality]

With no progression.....

 

Yeah, just fun. Remember that?

[Lerdoc]

This was done in WOW. The Raiders then stopped doing Raids because getting the best gear in game through Arena was far easier and quicker.

 

People take the path of least resistance for getting gear.

 

No. Not really. PvE gear was still vastly superior for PvE. The only worthwile PvP items that were worth getting for raids were weapons. Resilience made everything else just on pair with some poor pve epic gear, no sane tank or healer would wear pvp set in pve. Unless PvE content there is THAT much nerfed and since its blizz, it probably is "because fresh max levels could not get best set in a week or so and since they pay they are entitled to".

[EternalFinality]

You're hopeless if you really believe that. Guild Wars is not MMO and is much more advanced then dota. And its not meda up considering there is a fair share of games of that type and still new ones are being made. Just to name you a couple so you can tell difference from MMO and MOBA:

MMOs:

WHO, AoC, Aion, TOR, WoW, STO, MO

MOBAs:

LoL, HoN, BC, WH:WOH, DotA2

 

And exactly between them, too limited for MMO and too expanded for MOBA lies Guild Wars.

 

You really need to do some critical thinking. What do I do in TOR? I click the "join Warzone" button. Then I get into a game with some other people where I control a single character with some allies against an enemy team. I use abilities on cooldowns. I have equipment and stats. When I die, I respawn.

 

It's the same concept as Dota - but in Dota, progression only occurs inside a match and doesn't carry over between them, while in TOR, it only occurs outside it and always carries over. And that's the key flaw in "classical" MMO PvP design.

 

I'm also confused why you think being "advanced" is better. Simple game design concepts are often much more fun than "advanced" ones, because it's much easier to screw up balance in an "advanced" system. I mean, that's the goal, right? Making it Fun?

Edited February 1, 2012 by EternalFinality

[RycheMykola]

I understand this argument but people who complain about pvp gear in swtor are silly imo.

 

Firstly, I believe that a sense of progression is needed in this game to keep people playing and enjoying the game. Guild Wars does not do that and is more skill based with an even stat playing field. It might be a very popular game but it is not on the level of games in the same exact archetype as SWTOR. SWTOR/WoW/insert mmorpg make more money than the games like guild wars. The market is larger for them. To really look at this you need to get rid of your hardcore gamer viewpoint and think like a businessman. These companies are not interested in making hardcore gamers happy. They are interested in money. Why else would you create a company that makes video games? Appealing to the masses is the smarter move with video games. Look at WoW. Lowering raid group numbers, simplifying gear, adding pandas for Christ sake; WoW has increased its subscription count and gained popularity over the years because they are starting to market to a larger group (casual gamers). Hardcore gamers are always going to play, casual gamers need to be enticed. SWTOR’s decision to have a progression based pvp system is a business segment decision. Simple as that.

 

Secondly, I really have a hard time understanding why people are complaining about gear. Champion gear is stupid easy to obtain in this game. This game is designed to net you 20 bags a week simply from dailys/weeklys. If you enjoy doing warzones, you’ll get even more through comms. Give it 2-4 weeks and you will easily be full cent/champ. BM is a different story since it is a long grind to valor 60, but the difference between champion and BM is nothing that should genuinely create a problematic gap. I dinged 50 5 days ago and I have farmed about 25 bags since then acquiring 6 champ items and 1 cent item easily putting me on par with my opponents. Sure people in full champ gear have an edge on me but I play a pretty good sage and still succeed a lot. Everyone who enjoys PvP is going to get to BM and then it becomes a level field. But progression is a driving factor.

 

Thirdly , how can a game have a successful PvP system without gear while allowing for a successful PvE system without the use of PvP gear? Champion gear is honestly the easiest and quickest way to start stepping into normal mode ops. PvP gear is not as good for PvE but it is still useful. And honestly the game would not have successful PvP if they had nothing to show for their effort while PvE content gave gear. You can spend hours doing this and receive a pat on the back or spend hours doing that and get epic gear. PvP just got less popular and now the game’s PvP is dead and you will start complaining about that. So even if they do negate gear upgrades in PvP, this type of system would kill PvP because the population will decrease with no reward while there is another segment in the game that hands out cookies for playing.

 

Fact of the matter is the game is designed like this because it is how these games are designed. If you want a game like guild wars then go play guild wars. But this is a completely different game style and it is set up in this fashion for a reason. If you like to eat apples don’t go to the banana stand and start yelling at the owner. Your just making yourself look like a fool honestly.

 

 

Holy cow. The first person who understands MMO game design.

 

Wish there was a kudos button.

[Lerdoc]

Apples vs oranges. You are indeed hopeless, no point discussing it with you, you won't grasp that simple concept anyway.

 

Warzones here are just small part of the game. In Dota there is NOTHING ELSE then that. There is nothing similar in that two concepts besides both having option of X vs X doing objective based pvp, nothing more.

Edited February 1, 2012 by Lerdoc

[Vegathegreat]

I understand this argument but people who complain about pvp gear in swtor are silly imo.

 

Firstly, I believe that a sense of progression is needed in this game to keep people playing and enjoying the game. Guild Wars does not do that and is more skill based with an even stat playing field. It might be a very popular game but it is not on the level of games in the same exact archetype as SWTOR. SWTOR/WoW/insert mmorpg make more money than the games like guild wars. The market is larger for them. To really look at this you need to get rid of your hardcore gamer viewpoint and think like a businessman. These companies are not interested in making hardcore gamers happy. They are interested in money. Why else would you create a company that makes video games? Appealing to the masses is the smarter move with video games. Look at WoW. Lowering raid group numbers, simplifying gear, adding pandas for Christ sake; WoW has increased its subscription count and gained popularity over the years because they are starting to market to a larger group (casual gamers). Hardcore gamers are always going to play, casual gamers need to be enticed. SWTOR’s decision to have a progression based pvp system is a business segment decision. Simple as that.

 

Secondly, I really have a hard time understanding why people are complaining about gear. Champion gear is stupid easy to obtain in this game. This game is designed to net you 20 bags a week simply from dailys/weeklys. If you enjoy doing warzones, you’ll get even more through comms. Give it 2-4 weeks and you will easily be full cent/champ. BM is a different story since it is a long grind to valor 60, but the difference between champion and BM is nothing that should genuinely create a problematic gap. I dinged 50 5 days ago and I have farmed about 25 bags since then acquiring 6 champ items and 1 cent item easily putting me on par with my opponents. Sure people in full champ gear have an edge on me but I play a pretty good sage and still succeed a lot. Everyone who enjoys PvP is going to get to BM and then it becomes a level field. But progression is a driving factor.

 

Thirdly , how can a game have a successful PvP system without gear while allowing for a successful PvE system without the use of PvP gear? Champion gear is honestly the easiest and quickest way to start stepping into normal mode ops. PvP gear is not as good for PvE but it is still useful. And honestly the game would not have successful PvP if they had nothing to show for their effort while PvE content gave gear. You can spend hours doing this and receive a pat on the back or spend hours doing that and get epic gear. PvP just got less popular and now the game’s PvP is dead and you will start complaining about that. So even if they do negate gear upgrades in PvP, this type of system would kill PvP because the population will decrease with no reward while there is another segment in the game that hands out cookies for playing.

 

Fact of the matter is the game is designed like this because it is how these games are designed. If you want a game like guild wars then go play guild wars. But this is a completely different game style and it is set up in this fashion for a reason. If you like to eat apples don’t go to the banana stand and start yelling at the owner. Your just making yourself look like a fool honestly.

 

this guy says it right.......

[RycheMykola]

No. Not really. PvE gear was still vastly superior for PvE. The only worthwile PvP items that were worth getting for raids were weapons. Resilience made everything else just on pair with some poor pve epic gear, no sane tank or healer would wear pvp set in pve. Unless PvE content there is THAT much nerfed and since its blizz, it probably is "because fresh max levels could not get best set in a week or so and since they pay they are entitled to".

True, I should have added that the top raiders were doing Arena to get the weapons. Heck, the PVE weapons were just a tad better than the PVP arena weapons. I forget the website, but there are lists that rank gear for PVE, arena gear is ranked very high on those lists.

 

Look at the WOW forums, tons of PVEers complain about people raiding and doing instances in PVP gear (because it is easiest to get).

 

Thats just how MMO's are. If PVP is easy to get gear, people will PVP. If PVE is easier to get gear, people will PVE.

 

People are asking for Gear balancing in PVP. How would that be done? Theres only 2 choices!

a.) Gear normalization, ie, everyone PVP's in gear with equal stats

b.) no gear in PVP.

[Vegathegreat]

True, I should have added that the top raiders were doing Arena to get the weapons. Heck, the PVE weapons were just a tad better than the PVP arena weapons. I forget the website, but there are lists that rank gear for PVE, arena gear is ranked very high on those lists.

 

Look at the WOW forums, tons of PVEers complain about people raiding and doing instances in PVP gear (because it is easiest to get).

 

Thats just how MMO's are. If PVP is easy to get gear, people will PVP. If PVE is easier to get gear, people will PVE.

 

People are asking for Gear balancing in PVP. How would that be done? Theres only 2 choices!

a.) Gear normalization, ie, everyone PVP's in gear with equal stats

b.) no gear in PVP.

 

and both of those options are not viable cuz 80%+ of the community wants to gear up, get stronger and impose their strentgh on others......

[Lerdoc]

True, I should have added that the top raiders were doing Arena to get the weapons. Heck, the PVE weapons were just a tad better than the PVP arena weapons. I forget the website, but there are lists that rank gear for PVE, arena gear is ranked very high on those lists.

 

Look at the WOW forums, tons of PVEers complain about people raiding and doing instances in PVP gear (because it is easiest to get).

 

Thats just how MMO's are. If PVP is easy to get gear, people will PVP. If PVE is easier to get gear, people will PVE.

 

People are asking for Gear balancing in PVP. How would that be done? Theres only 2 choices!

a.) Gear normalization, ie, everyone PVP's in gear with equal stats

b.) no gear in PVP.

 

And this is why I support the system used in WHO. Serously, gear system there was briliant, you had PVE tires, you had PVP tiers and both of them were EQUAL and just as useful for both, PvP and PvE, differences were in stats and set bonuses, so if you wanted to DPS you went PvP, if you wanted to tank/heal you went for PvE, if you wanted raw DPS you went PvE if you wanted crit stacking you went PvP, you get the idea? It worked there as whatever choice to get the gear you've made you were not gimped by your choice in other game aspects, you were always useful, just sometimes had to adjust your spec to the set you've chosen to aquire. And most importantly... all sets were looking different.

DIFFERENT SET MODELS! NOT COLOURS ON EVERY SINGLE SAME MODEL YOU SILLY, LAZY BW SET DEVS!

[darthmorbous]

protip: People pvp mostly for the fun factor and most of those pvpers would be willing to do so for vanity items/mounts etc.

Imo, i think all stats should be void in pvp. I think they should only apply to the pve side of the game. Success in pvp should come down to who can better utilize the pc peripherals.

I'm sure the carebears will disagree though.

 

^^^this^^^^

[EternalFinality]

Apples vs oranges. You are indeed hopeless, no point discussing it with you, you won't grasp that simple concept anyway.

 

Warzones here are just small part of the game. In Dota there is NOTHING ELSE then that. There is nothing similar in that two concepts besides both having option of X vs X doing objective based pvp, nothing more.

 

There is two types of PvP in this game - Warzones and Ilum. Ilum is crap and we all know it is crap. That leaves warzones, which have a very strong parallel to Dota.

 

I mean, you do know we're only talking about PvP right?

Edited February 1, 2012 by EternalFinality

[Moriam]

It sounds like to me atleast that people who are asking for a "more skilled based pvp" simply do not want to spend the time on a gear grind and just want to step into pvp right away on even ground. To me it sounds catering to the casual pvper...

[darthmorbous]

I understand this argument but people who complain about pvp gear in swtor are silly imo.

 

Firstly, I believe that a sense of progression is needed in this game to keep people playing and enjoying the game. Guild Wars does not do that and is more skill based with an even stat playing field. It might be a very popular game but it is not on the level of games in the same exact archetype as SWTOR. SWTOR/WoW/insert mmorpg make more money than the games like guild wars. The market is larger for them. To really look at this you need to get rid of your hardcore gamer viewpoint and think like a businessman. These companies are not interested in making hardcore gamers happy. They are interested in money. Why else would you create a company that makes video games? Appealing to the masses is the smarter move with video games. Look at WoW. Lowering raid group numbers, simplifying gear, adding pandas for Christ sake; WoW has increased its subscription count and gained popularity over the years because they are starting to market to a larger group (casual gamers). Hardcore gamers are always going to play, casual gamers need to be enticed. SWTOR’s decision to have a progression based pvp system is a business segment decision. Simple as that.

 

Secondly, I really have a hard time understanding why people are complaining about gear. Champion gear is stupid easy to obtain in this game. This game is designed to net you 20 bags a week simply from dailys/weeklys. If you enjoy doing warzones, you’ll get even more through comms. Give it 2-4 weeks and you will easily be full cent/champ. BM is a different story since it is a long grind to valor 60, but the difference between champion and BM is nothing that should genuinely create a problematic gap. I dinged 50 5 days ago and I have farmed about 25 bags since then acquiring 6 champ items and 1 cent item easily putting me on par with my opponents. Sure people in full champ gear have an edge on me but I play a pretty good sage and still succeed a lot. Everyone who enjoys PvP is going to get to BM and then it becomes a level field. But progression is a driving factor.

 

Thirdly , how can a game have a successful PvP system without gear while allowing for a successful PvE system without the use of PvP gear? Champion gear is honestly the easiest and quickest way to start stepping into normal mode ops. PvP gear is not as good for PvE but it is still useful. And honestly the game would not have successful PvP if they had nothing to show for their effort while PvE content gave gear. You can spend hours doing this and receive a pat on the back or spend hours doing that and get epic gear. PvP just got less popular and now the game’s PvP is dead and you will start complaining about that. So even if they do negate gear upgrades in PvP, this type of system would kill PvP because the population will decrease with no reward while there is another segment in the game that hands out cookies for playing.

 

Fact of the matter is the game is designed like this because it is how these games are designed. If you want a game like guild wars then go play guild wars. But this is a completely different game style and it is set up in this fashion for a reason. If you like to eat apples don’t go to the banana stand and start yelling at the owner. Your just making yourself look like a fool honestly.

 

You forgot one very important thing though, a conceptual one.

For a real PvPer, getting better and better, knowing his class and the enemy better, to fight em better and win, THATS the proggression.

A proggression in skill; i think your post is right on, BUT you have to consider that "proggression" is subjective.For me , and most succsessful PvPers, i´ve "progressed", TONS in the past PvP years, grind is grind; proggression is improvement. Not collecting things and qqing cause player x always kills you instead of gear disavdantage and lvl difference.At least for a PvPer, thats ALL THE PROGGRESSION YOU NEED.

But i agree, we are minority, and it is good so.

[Vegathegreat]

Some of you guys posting here do not realize that YOU are the minority, a small % of the playerbase who wrties on the forums. Most of the people who play MMO's the MAJORITY; dont post here, they are playing the game right now, they are not taking a 10 min break at work to check the forums, they most likely do not even have a job.

 

Now with that being said, they follow the carrot on the stick.....they will continue to do so. MMO players play the game to get gear, END OF STORY. MMO players want to get stronger and stronger and destroy anyone who is weaker / less skilled. They dont play for what YOU think is fun, they play for what THEY think is fun.

[joric]

If competing on even ground where the pvp is skill-based is boring for you then you need help.

[Moosefeathers]

Its not hard to gear up, i don't understand why everyone is such a baby about gear

[Vegathegreat]

You forgot one very important thing though, a conceptual one.

For a real PvPer, getting better and better, knowing his class and the enemy better, to fight em better and win, THATS the proggression.

A proggression in skill; i think your post is right on, BUT you have to consider that "proggression" is subjective.For me , and most succsessful PvPers, i´ve "progressed", TONS in the past PvP years, grind is grind; proggression is improvement. Not collecting things and qqing cause player x always kills you instead of gear disavdantage and lvl difference.At least for a PvPer, thats ALL THE PROGGRESSION YOU NEED.

But i agree, we are minority, and it is good so.

 

While you are correct on certain points, in the end the real pvpers know that in an MMO you gotta get the gear. You can challenge geared people with your skill but in the end if you really want to pvp in an MMO you go get the gear and then you PVP. Then bad players getting the good gear doesnt mean anything cuz you have the gear anyways and you know your better. Point is people need to stop complaining about gear and just go f'ing get it....then the stats are ALL EQUAL, zomg problem solved....unless of course the problem is your actual skill!?!?

[RycheMykola]

One thing that would really help new 50's would be if crafters could actually make a "beginner" PVP equipment. Even if it was blue gear, not as good as centurion, but about the same balance as Centurion gear going on to Champion gear.

 

Armstech - making weapons with expertise.

Cybertech/artifice - mods with expertise

armortech/synth - armor with expertise.

[Petrosis]

ORANGE GEAR is the perfect solution at hand.

 

Why new gear sets have to be with higher stats?

- In that way you make old gear useless.

- Players start wearing one gear set (the best one) at some point.

- The diversity is lost, and players with little time to play are frustrated with the constant race for gear.

 

Why not just introduce new orange gear?

- People get new shiny stuff

- Stats can be transfered from old gear to the new (crafters get useful)

- People still strive for new sets, and if you don't like the look of the new.

Edited February 1, 2012 by Petrosis

[Asnine]

While you are correct on certain points, in the end the real pvpers know that in an MMO you gotta get the gear. You can challenge geared people with your skill but in the end if you really want to pvp in an MMO you go get the gear and then you PVP. Then bad players getting the good gear doesnt mean anything cuz you have the gear anyways and you know your better. Point is people need to stop complaining about gear and just go f'ing get it....then the stats are ALL EQUAL, zomg problem solved....unless of course the problem is your actual skill!?!?

 

If gear was as easy to get now as it was back in the beginning, your point may have held some validity.

[Brutem]

and both of those options are not viable cuz 80%+ of the community wants to gear up, get stronger and impose their strentgh on others......

 

Sad but true to a certain extent, alot of the player base would rather have an advanatage and faceroll the other faction to show their "skill". An even playing field, that advantage isnt there and now they would be forced to play competitively. While alot of players would like to see even match ups, the vast majorit of "good pvpers", the ones whom say L2P noob when a complaint is made, would not want an even playing field, look at the early access how many players hit 50 to start farming their Bm gear on lowbies? How many used the exploits in Ilum to farm their BM gear?

[Mackuss]

It's hard to make a mmo with good pvp that doesn't rely on gear, i mean people get bored when there's nothing to work towards.

 

LOL what in the living hell are you talking about?

 

This is exactly what I've been saying for a while now. Think about games like Call of Duty, Battlefield, etc. There is no gear curve, yet, look how many people STILL play those games, will never stop, and yet, keep buying more titles.

 

It's obvious it doesn't bored to anyone, even with the lack of a gear treadmill.

 

Players are getting of this gear **** and quite honestly, this is the ONLY situation, EVER, that instant gratification would be good.

[Moriam]

LOL what in the living hell are you talking about?

 

This is exactly what I've been saying for a while now. Think about games like Call of Duty, Battlefield, etc. There is no gear curve, yet, look how many people STILL play those games, will never stop, and yet, keep buying more titles.

 

It's obvious it doesn't bored to anyone, even with the lack of a gear treadmill.

 

Players are getting of this gear **** and quite honestly, this is the ONLY situation, EVER, that instant gratification would be good.

 

I never heard of those mmos...wait because they arent. Nice try though.

[RycheMykola]

LOL what in the living hell are you talking about?

 

This is exactly what I've been saying for a while now. Think about games like Call of Duty, Battlefield, etc. There is no gear curve, yet, look how many people STILL play those games, will never stop, and yet, keep buying more titles.

 

It's obvious it doesn't bored to anyone, even with the lack of a gear treadmill.

 

Players are getting of this gear **** and quite honestly, this is the ONLY situation, EVER, that instant gratification would be good.

Those aren't MMO's, those are console games. I don't need to pay $15 a month to play them either.

Edited February 1, 2012 by RycheMykola