xxdragonragexx Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 I am still trying to get my head around why people feel it is so necessary to have PVE specific gear and PVP Specific gear. If both paths get you to the same type of gear what does it matter which route you took to get there? I have yet to hear any argument which supports these divergent paths? It is because both paths are not equal. Raiders think their path is better. They do not want the best gear and the best weapon to be available in pvp when they had to crawl into so many dungeons and repeat a lot of objectives that pvpers wouldn't be able to do. Pvpers don't want raiders going into warzones killing everyone through gear which is what is happening in a lot of MMO. PvPers don't want to raid but if there is no expertise, they will be forced to raid dungeons in order to be competitive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EternalFinality Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 (edited) What most people fail to realize is it's not expertise alone that ruins things. It's the gear gap PLUS expertise. Champion PvP gear and up is basically raid gear. You're fighting someone in raid gear. They have a sizable advantage. The killer is that with expertise, they've doubled the gear gap. You're penalized for having worse gear and then double whammied with the penalty for not having expertise. Expertise only works at its terrible purpose when someone in PvP gear fights someone in raid gear. Fighting someone in neither? They have no chance at all. It raises the barriers of entry to PvP to comical levels. It should never have existed. Edited January 30, 2012 by EternalFinality Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EternalFinality Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 (edited) Expertise is not the root of the problem, it is merely a symptom. The real problem is that there is no PvP. What we have is CvC (Character versus Character) where stats determine the outcome. Some moron at some other MMO company some time in the past decided that the best way to make a PvP system was to take their current PvE system and let the characters fight each other. Then another moron decided that system didn't work very well so they felt the best way to fix their broken "PvE pretending to be PvP" system was to add more PvE to it (in the form of a "PvP stat"). Now everyone copies that method because it is easier than changing it, plus most gamers have been conditioned into believing that PvP Progression is a good thing. If you want a true PvP game in your MMO, you need to realize that there cannot be any aspect of PvE in the PvP. No character can be inherently better than any other character of the same class, and that while filling thier role, every class cannot be better than any other class. When the outcome is determined solely by player skill and all stats (and other PvE elements) are completely removed, only then will you have PvP. Actually, people did discover how to properly integrate both PvE and PvP elements into a competitive multiplayer RPG. That game was called Defense of the Ancients. The key, they discovered, is that EVERYONE MUST START EACH GAME EQUAL. There is character advancement in each match, but there is no PERSISTENT advancement between matches. Legendary multiplayer shooters like Counterstrike work this way as well - money doesn't carry over between maps, and everyone starts out the same. MMO developers are clueless when it comes to fair PvP design. Sickeningly, shooter developers have started to add "RPG" elements to their multiplayer which actually gives persistent advancement in a hook to get players to play their game longer. It's like they've thrown decades of multiplayer design out the window in a quest for cash and players are too stupid to notice. Edited January 30, 2012 by EternalFinality Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angaurath Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 The reasoning is, raiders (even worse raider premades) would be able to go into warzones with full Rakata/Columi and 18-19k+ hp and be able to steamroll people, at which point, the PvPers would fill buckets with tears, stating that they need to grind PvE encounters to get gear for PvP. As it stands, sure fresh 50's will have a hard time, but they still have the chance to eventually get their own gear and even out the odds. No, its not the best or most fair system in the universe, but the alternatives are not that attractive. It seems like the best way to counter this would be to design raid gear to automatically nerf itself in a WZ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DimeStax Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 It sounds like you guys are calling for a system where EVERYONE is equal and it's skill vs. skill. Not even sports is skill vs skill because you get players who are naturally taller than others, or stronger than others etc. Like all other MMO's this game is about CHARACTER PROGRESSION THROUGH ITEMIZATION. If you insist on only wanted to play games that are truly fair in pvp then go to the arcade with one of your buddies and compare Pacman scores because that's the type of basic game design that you seek. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EternalFinality Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 (edited) Like all other MMO's this game is about CHARACTER PROGRESSION THROUGH ITEMIZATION. But while this is a fine system for a PvE system, this is a terrible foundation to base a PvP system around. Has always been, always will be. If you insist on only wanted to play games that are truly fair in pvp then go to the arcade with one of your buddies and compare Pacman scores because that's the type of basic game design that you seek. Or could you play a game like Dota, which I gave as an example above. You tried to be disparaging but ended up looking like a fool. Edited January 30, 2012 by EternalFinality Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goxwerd Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 Actually, people did discover how to properly integrate both PvE and PvP elements into a competitive multiplayer RPG. That game was called Defense of the Ancients. The key, they discovered, is that EVERYONE MUST START EACH GAME EQUAL. There is character advancement in each match, but there is no PERSISTENT advancement between matches. Legendary multiplayer shooters like Counterstrike work this way as well - money doesn't carry over between maps, and everyone starts out the same. MMO developers are clueless when it comes to fair PvP design. Sickeningly, shooter developers have started to add "RPG" elements to their multiplayer which actually gives persistent advancement in a hook to get players to play their game longer. It's like they've thrown decades of multiplayer design out the window in a quest for cash and players are too stupid to notice. what are you talking about? MMOs have never been about premade "stock" even characters fighting in PVP... Its always been about YOUR character you built vs other players characters... And wth does "fair" mean? Everyone has the same/similar opportunity to get all the gear. The problem is not with it not being fair.. The problem is BW's itemization just makes a huge gear gap really early. Also i never understood why people always want PVE gear forbidden from PVP. Imo PVE gear shouldn't dominate PVP but everyone crying to make it so PVE gear is awful for PVP just so the "cool pvp only i refuse to pve cuz you can't force me to play the entire game" dont cry. Imo crap would be easier if they just made the crap similar and top end PVP gear gets a 3-5percent advantage over top PVE gear. Its funny because as far as i know PVE gear has not dominated PVP since like pre arena wow... But yet Top end PVP gear with a pvp stat has completely gear gapped the crap out of PVP since then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EternalFinality Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 (edited) what are you talking about? MMOs have never been about premade "stock" even characters fighting in PVP... Its always been about YOUR character you built vs other players characters... Uh, what? In this game, your character is one of 8 classes, with several usable specs between them. You didn't build anything. You didn't select stat point allocations like Diablo (which doesn't have much variation either!). You have almost all of the same abilities as another person playing your class, and you use them nearly the same way. Where is this unique character crap coming from? Dota has over a hundred "character classes" with different specs between them. Same thing. And wth does "fair" mean? Everyone has the same/similar opportunity to get all the gear. The problem is not with it not being fair.. The problem is BW's itemization just makes a huge gear gap really early. Fair means you have the same chance to win as the other guy at the start of each match. Imagine playing chess and starting down 2 pieces because the other guy has played chess for a lot longer than you. Is this good game design? Edited January 30, 2012 by EternalFinality Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tetrahc Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 Star Wars: The Old Communists Should be the version for the "fair" game people. In MMORPG's gearing has been in since the beginning, it's the whole point of an MMO"RPG". Taking that away takes away the core properties which make it what it is. In no RPG do you not level, gain points, gain better gear, heals, damage abilities etc to do more output. You are not talking about an RPG, you want a different game completely, which is why you keep referencing non RPG's. I would have no issue with equalization, but why would I continue paying $15 a month for that when I could just go play an FPS for free? I'm not bashing your ideas as they are sound for another game type, just not an RPG. And yes, the Original DoTA (Warcraft III map) did have levels and gear which made you stronger than the others, though since it is now it's own game and has, what I gather from your stuff, changed. It was not and is not an RPG. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dadamowsky Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 It was not and is not an RPG. In a matter of fact, MMOs are not RPG either. It has been a while since I saw some role-playing on (nomen omen) role-playing Trask Ulgo serwer. However I'm not sure how does role-playing has anything to do with PvP matter we're discussing here... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pinealogik Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 Why people can't you understand that the point of expertise is to distinguish pvp gear from pve gear. So people who farm warzones can't go to hrdmode operations and people from operations do not rock on warzones. Is this really that hard to get? Quite honestly, no one gives a **** about this anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Haro Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 Why people can't you understand that the point of expertise is to distinguish pvp gear from pve gear. So people who farm warzones can't go to hrdmode operations and people from operations do not rock on warzones. Is this really that hard to get? Except that's not how it works. I run ops in my PVP gear because regardless of the expertise stat, it is pretty much equivalent to the ops gear with a slightly higher priority on endurance than main stat. So the way it is right now PVP gear is versatile in that it can run pvp and pve content. PVE gear is only good for PVE content. The reason PVP gear couldn't be used in PVE in wow was that you had to sacrifice stats for the resilience(ie. swtors expertise). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DosPeros Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 It is because both paths are not equal. Raiders think their path is better. They do not want the best gear and the best weapon to be available in pvp when they had to crawl into so many dungeons and repeat a lot of objectives that pvpers wouldn't be able to do. Pvpers don't want raiders going into warzones killing everyone through gear which is what is happening in a lot of MMO. PvPers don't want to raid but if there is no expertise, they will be forced to raid dungeons in order to be competitive. This maybe a dumb question but do a lot of people level in the warzones only? I made the assumption, that most people do their class quests to level up. If I were playing this game only for warzones and ilum...... I think I would quit now and if I were playing only for the PVE I would do the same To me both systems are fine in combination but separate they are weak. Earlier some one made the comment that we were confusing the gear progression with the expertise. Gear is the embodiment of expertise they are the same.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orangerascal Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 read this: http://www.jedilace.com/2012/01/31/expertise-the-newbie-stat/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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