Someone condense the anti - LFD tool side argument for me

[BobaTed]

I played "that other game" before LFD was added, and returned briefly afterwards. My quick synopsis of my own experience:

 

Before LFD, it was a pain in the butt to get a group together. However, people tended to stick with the group precisely for that reason, and would try to "make do" if the group composition wasn't perfect. In addition, the time it took to assemble the group and travel to the dungeon gave teammates some time to talk and joke around before starting. And finally, since you only grouped with people on your server, you often saw the same people regularly and got to know them and their playstyle.

 

After LFD, it was relatively quick even for DPS to get into a group. However, I noticed two things right away - as often as not, the starting "tank" would just cuss out a random person for 10 minutes' straight and then quit. Also, healers tended to quit (not get kicked, just quit) after just one fight regardless of how the fight went; I ended up begging a healer to stay once after three healers in a row had bailed. And, of course, unless you were teamed before using LFD, you'd probably never see any of your teammates ever again, and had no way to join up later.

 

So, yeah, before LFD, groups were few and far between, but I gladly joined up for anyone advertising. After LFD, I just didn't bother after a while. Maybe things were different in endgame, but both times I'd stopped caring about the game before I even got there.

[googleninja]

Not having an automated tool means it is extremely important to make friends and join a guild. If you don't, then you end up spending a ton of time trying to find a group. It also means that good players end up sticking together, if you are good, and play with someone good, they remember you and that is the basis for how groups are formed.

 

If you have an automated tool, then your guild is just someone to talk to, and your friends list becomes irrelivant. People stop talking at all in groups, and just sort of treat the other players as NPCs -- until they do something wrong. Social behavior not being important also tends to bring out the worst in people, and finally, it dramatically increases the rate in which groups fall apart.

 

I find the rage on forums kind of silly over this kind of thing, only answering here cause it seemed like an honest question.

[Barathos]

I guess they weren't 'friends' then.

 

Friends leave cause they get bored of the game. Nothing you can do there. Guilds are the best way to go for "community".

 

But I made a free trial on WoW just to see what the differences were, and honestly, I've been in more talkative groups on WOW than TOR. Crazy.

[PjPablo]

Friends leave cause they get bored of the game. Nothing you can do there. Guilds are the best way to go for "community".

 

But I made a free trial on WoW just to see what the differences were, and honestly, I've been in more talkative groups on WOW than TOR. Crazy.

 

Thats what I don't get about this 'ruin the community' bit. I haven't seen a community here at all. No one talks in PUGs. Heck even General is devoid of much chat. It just seems dead.

 

In WOW my experience with LFD was fine. I had two occasions where someone acted like a fool and had to be kicked. I would ask those who are against LFD why would those that have actually experienced LFD, like myself, and have had no issues with it be recommending here?

[Sakan]

On my server there is no lack of tanks and healers,the problem is that it's hard to find the ppl you need with the level required to do a fp at the same time on the fleet.

So in my opinion a single server lfd or at least a global chat would not be so bad.

Edited January 28, 2012 by Sakan

[TaintedSquirrel]

Pro's outweigh the cons. Heavily.

LFD tool is necessary.

[Barathos]

Thats what I don't get about this 'ruin the community' bit. I haven't seen a community here at all. No one talks in PUGs. Heck even General is devoid of much chat. It just seems dead.

 

In WOW my experience with LFD was fine. I had two occasions where someone acted like a fool and had to be kicked. I would ask those who are against LFD why would those that have actually experienced LFD, like myself, and have had no issues with it be recommending here?

 

+ You don't have to deal with jerky leaders who will give the loot to their friends when you need the item too. No rolling, just dictator ship.

 

LFD you just have to pray you win the roll over the guy who REALLY doesn't need it, a lot better imo.

[Mattheous]

Let's take a look how my experienced in a certain game people seem to hate:

 

Before the tool:

 

I had approximately 15 people on my friend list. All of them people I only knew in game, and we became good friends. Most of them I knew since early 06.

I then had about 20 names in my head I would whisper randomly to chat with, and to get into groups with. This would be people I grouped up with over and over on my time to 60/70/80.

It was not unusual to run an instance multiple time, to tell jokes and to help out with whatever proffesion we had. It was teamwork.

 

After the tool:

 

I never added a single player to my friendlist the last years. Only 2 of the 15 people on the friendlist was active, and we chatted often. The general chat was about dead to anything but trade spam and foreign language talk. Entering a instance consisted off:

 

1) Me saying "howdy!".

2) They saying "hi"

3) Buffing

4) leaving/keep fighting.

 

 

Now, I agree that there are other factors that killed the game, but the tool was one of them. So, my conclusion:

Yes, the tool does kill the community. The reason there is little community in SWTOR is because half of the playerbase is from WoW, which are used to the no-community kind of thing. They will adapt. If the LFG tool was added, it would do nothing but keep the trend going.

 

So, that said: Why do people play MMOs if not for the community?

[CogitoErgo]

Thats what I don't get about this 'ruin the community' bit. I haven't seen a community here at all. No one talks in PUGs. Heck even General is devoid of much chat. It just seems dead.

 

In WOW my experience with LFD was fine. I had two occasions where someone acted like a fool and had to be kicked. I would ask those who are against LFD why would those that have actually experienced LFD, like myself, and have had no issues with it be recommending here?

 

I played WOW before and after LFD was implemented. I saw the extreme changes in the. Immunity that came with it. I was all about it when they first announced it. And at first it was really amazing. I could run dungeons until my eyes bled and it made dungeon grinding to level viable. There were good things that came with LFD. However, people slowly stopped talking, joking around, enjoying their time in dungeons. They changed from something that was fun into a treadmill. Since we could do them with very little downtime they became a chore rather than a privilege.

 

When dungeons became chores people stopped being friendly and became *****. They could freely ninja gear, rage quit, curse out their groups, intentionally wipe their group and leave, etc.

 

Sometimes we need to be denied what we enjoy so we can remember that we enjoy them.

[PjPablo]

So, that said: Why do people play MMOs if not for the community?

 

What's the community like on your server? Can you give examples of how that community is currently vibrant?

 

I ask because I am not experiencing any sense of community on my server. Maybe because it's dead. Who knows. But there isn't any community to speak of.

[Barathos]

I played WOW before and after LFD was implemented. I saw the extreme changes in the. Immunity that came with it. I was all about it when they first announced it. And at first it was really amazing. I could run dungeons until my eyes bled and it made dungeon grinding to level viable. There were good things that came with LFD. However, people slowly stopped talking, joking around, enjoying their time in dungeons. They changed from something that was fun into a treadmill. Since we could do them with very little downtime they became a chore rather than a privilege.

 

When dungeons became chores people stopped being friendly and became *****. They could freely ninja gear, rage quit, curse out their groups, intentionally wipe their group and leave, etc.

 

Sometimes we need to be denied what we enjoy so we can remember that we enjoy them.

 

True, but right now in TOR I havn't received the same amount of "Joking" and "Talkable" people as I did in WoW.

 

In fact, when I went into a dungeon just recently, my group was VERY talkative. I started saying random stuff about taurens having 6 stomachs and it got everybody talking and laughing. Sure, we'll never meet again, but at least I had some fun for the brief 20 minutes.

 

TOR groups just seem so... dead sometimes. Except for esseles, people like to comment on that one.

[Barracudastr]

Greater anonymity = greater degrees of jerkitude.

 

There is no anonymity when its a same server tool. So that arguement is out.

 

Anti-LFD'ers associate spamming a chat channel as being social... when really its not.

 

Ant-LFD'ers associate spending 1 hour + forming a group as meaning people will be super happy and chatty in group and you will make friends and be social because you had to work super hard for the group... when in reality 99% of groups are silent except at the start of the run with a hey guys whats up..... and at the end of a run when everyone parts ways saying a few things... good run guys cya round.....

 

LFD in no way ruins a community these are arguements based on their bad experiences in WoW and their cross'server LFD.

 

I only had one or two incidents that were negative in wow with LFD..... IE tank joined ran through trained us and left.... I am talking like every 1 out of 100 runs or more would there be a bad LFD group.... thus I am willing to take that one bad experience and weigh against all the good experiences which far out number the bad by a hundred to one.

Edited January 28, 2012 by Barracudastr

[dargor-]

anti LFD arguments are based around nostalgia, hating anything wow did, and the fallacious argument that spamming general creates a better community.

 

This

 

/endthread

Edited January 28, 2012 by dargor-

[belialle]

Alright, so the main thread is full of people who support the LFD tool and i'm lazy. Could an anti-lfd'er please summarize all their points, please?

I think that most of the anti-LFD arguments I've seen are specifically opposed to a cross-server LFD tool. One common argument is that the greater anonymity gives players an incentive to treat one another like crap because there are no social consequences for bad behavior. This damages the community. It makes us all more suspicious and (even more) cynical about strangers that we meet in dungeons. It's dehumanizing, in a way. But that's not the only reason I'm against a cross-server LFD tool.

 

I fear it could potentially turn the game into little more than a giant, useless waiting room. But most importantly, I like getting to know the people on my own server. I like knowing which people I like to play with and who is annoying so I can avoid them.

 

If we had a better LFD tool for only our own server, that's one thing. Obviously, the current crop of players aren't interested in even bothering to learn how to use the type of LFD tool we have now. They need something that requires a little less effort to use, obviously, since hardly anyone bothers to use it. And to be honest, it could use a little polish. So, fine. Implement an LFD tool that people can just plug into....as long as it only connects us with players on our own server, it probably wouldn't be too much of a problem. I would, however, be extremely disappointed to see a cross-server LFD tool in this game.

Edited January 28, 2012 by belialle

[FriendlyHobo]

Problem seems to be right now is there are very few servers that have community. Giradda the Hutt, my server, has a fairly lively community filled with people to group with and talk to. But from what I gather from the LFD supporters, this is not the norm. I'm mixed on LFD, it would be beneficial to these dead servers, but I fear it would make my server less vibrant than it is.

[xngxng]

Been trying as a healer to find a group for Boarding Party and/or Foundry on EU highest population server for 3 hours now. Not even found a single dps. Either people quit this game at around lvl 30 and go to better games, or the flashpoint-system does not work.

[TrailArnizay]

Anti-LFD people want to punish those who don't have a lot of time to play.

[Barracudastr]

Been trying as a healer to find a group for Boarding Party and/or Foundry on EU highest population server for 3 hours now. Not even found a single dps. Either people quit this game at around lvl 30 and go to better games, or the flashpoint-system does not work.

 

ouch I hear ya on that.

 

It feels like this game is tanking to be honest.... either people just dont want to do group content anywhere or the game is starting to....dare I say flop.

[CharagonIGN]

Most of the anti-LFG people are too stupid to realize that you can have LFG WITHOUT cross-server, which is what they're really against.

 

 

I don't want a cross-server, press a button and warp to a group LFG. I want to be able to pick a Flashpoint out of a menu and get a list of every player in the galaxy that also wants to that flashpoint. I want their class, their level, and their role. And I want to do it without having to dig through /who's disaster of an interface.

[Mephismo]

It removes the whole social and game part of actually making a group.

It destroys involvement in the game (convenience button, push it and magically everything else is taken care of for you !), it destroys the social part (no need to interact, you just let the tool does the work), it destroys the actual point of a MMO.

 

Just look at WoW to see how it basically ruined the community.

 

Its not true I played all WoW expansions and LFG did not ruin community

The difficulty and the elitist jerks ruined it.

Sometime the groups were full of helpful people other times full of jerks but that happened pre LFG tool.

The cross realm thing helped save the game on low pop realms.

[navarh]

Greater anonymity = greater degrees of jerkitude.

yeayea

if you jerk in that_game rLFG you fly-avay from dungeon via vote-kick, in instant

no-one will tolerate you becourse you is one precious tank or healer, or your replecement will take like a half of the day (another half you already wasted to find this group)

Edited January 28, 2012 by navarh

[BobaTed]

What's the community like on your server? Can you give examples of how that community is currently vibrant?

 

I ask because I am not experiencing any sense of community on my server. Maybe because it's dead. Who knows. But there isn't any community to speak of.

Maybe I'm missing something, but it sounds like you're saying, "since there's no community anyway, screw it"?

 

Anyway, I'm not against same-server LFDs, and people are right to point out that that would solve some of the jerkwad anonymity issues. However, my guess is that it wouldn't solve any problems on low- or even standard-population servers - you'd probably still have to wait a long time for a queue to pop.

 

If the pro-LFDers were to get behind a set of cross-server "community" tools, I wouldn't be against the idea. For example, extend /friend lists, /whispers, and such so that they work across servers, set up LFD so that people can more proactively form cross-server teams and people can see who is on the teams that are forming, etc. I know these have been suggested in that other game, and they'd do a lot to allay my concerns about LFD tools in general.

[Nozybidaj]

 

Just look at WoW to see how it basically ruined the community.

 

This is where I disagree with the anti-LFD group. The WoW community was ruined long before a LFD tool was implemented.

 

A LFD tool does nothing to change the community, it is a great tool making grouping much easier. I personally preferred the old CoH LFG tool (though its been years since I played that no idea if it is still the same) but something is needed. Spamming general with LFG is a terrible way to expect people to find other people to play with and seeing it spammed all the time when I'm not LFG only makes me close the chat window.

[gurugeorge]

This is a good example of the 'con' group. They don't like the feature so no one should have it. The 'play my way or the highway' method.

 

It's not about personal likes or dislikes, it's just a well-known aspect of gameplay design. It's the reason Blizzard didn't introduce it until relatively recently in the life of WoW. (Think about it - if they'd thought it was a good idea to introduce earlier, or have in from the game's launch, they would have done.)

 

They judged that at this point in time, the community-building aspect weighs less in the balance than the convenience, so the tool can be introduced.

 

It's a "poor" design feature. The trouble is, now that Blizzard have succumbed, every idiot who's played WoW expects it to be in every new MMO. (Note: this last sentence was cunningly designed to allow for the possibility that some players of WoW are not idiots )

[BobaTed]

This is where I disagree with the anti-LFD group. The WoW community was ruined long before a LFD tool was implemented.

You're right - but it made it harder to build your own community outside of a guild. Again, my experience was that I made friends through PuGging before LFD. After LFD, I found that to be next to impossible.