[Theorycrafting] Shadowy Veil vs Infiltration Tactics for Infiltration Shadows

[supermucho]

Most of the the builds I've seen for Inf shadows eschew Shadowy Veil to pump 3 points into Infiltration Tactics. I find this curious because I'm not convinced Find Weakness is the bee's knees. It's basically a tradeoff between a 20% proc trigger and a 30% bump in armor rating

 

At the very least, you need to put 1 point into Find Weakness even if you use the other 4 on Shadowy Veil and Shadow's Respite. This gives you a 10% chance on a proc which can only trigger once every 10 seconds. That's not the worst and will probably trigger more often than not given how many attacks you can unleash in 10 seconds. Additionally, I don't think you can assume that you'll be positioned for a Shadow Strike every 10 seconds, even in PvE.

 

I suppose if you are trying to maximize DPS, then it is correct to max out Infiltration Tactics since you want to maximize the chance the proc goes off. It seems Shadow Strike is inefficient without the proc. Even so, 30% bump in armor rating is nothing to sneeze at, and you would still have a 10% chance of triggering the proc anyways.

 

Of course, I don't know for sure as I didn't play enough of the beta to evaluate the abilities properly, but I'm going to try this 2/1/2 configuration on the first tier abilities once I get in game.

Edited December 13, 2011 by supermucho
neaten up title for forum

[GFreeGamer]

Astral or CitizenSnipe would be better answering this one, it's been asked several times. I think quite a few people use Shadowy Veil in their PvP builds anyway.

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=1518

 

BTW, could you just add [Theorycrafting] to the title? We're trying to neaten everything up. Make a better forum. =)

[supermucho]

BTW, could you just add [Theorycrafting] to the title? We're trying to neaten everything up. Make a better forum. =)

 

Consider it neatened.

[GFreeGamer]

Consider it neatened.

 

+1 For building a cooperative forum.

 

http://www.twitch.tv/innverse

 

He's played to a level 50 Infil Shadow, and he's playign an Assasin for launch. You could ask hm about it. Would be nice if you brought his response here. He's very friendly,, so feel free to ask him whatever you need to ask.

[Phantaram]

2 shadowy veil and 1 Infiltration is definitely what I would do in PvP.

 

I for one do not want to keep track of a proc that then requires me to get behind a target to use. There is way to many things to concentrate on in the field and you would have to put 100% of your concentration into using this proc effectively.

 

I'll be ignoring the proc and so the 1 point into Infiltration tactics will essentially be to just expand into the rest of the tree. I'm sure I'll use the proc by chance sometimes but I won't pay attention to it.

 

Beyond this, I don't see my self using shadow strike a whole lot honestly. Clairvoyant Strike (aka CS) > CS > Project > CS > CS > CS (5 stacks of Exit Strategy) > Project > Force Breach

Edited December 13, 2011 by Phantaram

[Phantaram]

2 shadowy veil and 1 Infiltration is definitely what I would do in PvP.

 

I for one do not want to keep track of a proc that then requires me to get behind a target to use. There is way to many things to concentrate on in the field and you would have to put 100% of your concentration into using this proc effectively.

 

I'll be ignoring the proc and so the 1 point into Infiltration tactics will essentially be to just expand into the rest of the tree. I'm sure I'll use the proc by chance sometimes but I won't pay attention to it.

[AbhiX]

The 30% armor bonus from that isn't much compared to the armor bonus u get from Combat Technique

[supermucho]

The 30% armor bonus from that isn't much compared to the armor bonus u get from Combat Technique

 

this is with respect to an Inf build where you'll be using Shadow Technique.

[AbhiX]

Imagine this situation

Find Weakness Buff - 10 sec left

Find Weakness buff - 2 sec left

You use shadow strike

You use shock

You use discharge (Find weakness buff proc)

You use shadow strike

 

You would want the extra % chance on the infiltration technique to get find weakness buff asap for the huge burst

[Crimsonyoshi]

Personally I think I'm going to run with this:

 

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#601McZGGMRkhMrtzZc.1

[AbhiX]

Personally I think I'm going to run with this:

 

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#601McZGGMRkhMrtzZc.1

 

You are missing out on upheaval which makes shock extra strong

[Goonbandito]

my tactic will be to hit the people on the head with my light sword

[Wolfdreamer]

I can totally understand going 2 Shadowy Veil / 1 Infiltration tactics for a PvP build since you would want survivability over a chance proc that you may not get the chance to use.

On the other hand, doing this for a PvE build just doesn't seem right because if you ever find yourself in a situation where you may die or need to tank then you're gonna switch to Combat Technique anyways which is 150% armor.

[Kitru]

For PvP, Infiltration Tactics is an unwise choice because it requires strict positioning for an unreliable benefit that takes time to generate. It's unlikely to be gotten right out of stealth, and, since PvP has lots of rapid moving, being behind someone to get in a Shadow Strike is not something you can rely on. On a similar note, more armor, even if it only increases your damage reduction by 5%, is going to be a substantial increase to your PvP survivability because you do not have a threat meter to hide behind. As such, Infiltration Tactics is less useful than Shadowy Veil for these circumstances.

 

For PvE, on the other hand, Shadowy Veil is rather spectacularly worthless since you're almost always going to have a tank or tank companion to hide behind and you need to rely on continual damage over extended periods rather than requiring burst damage out of stealth. Because of this, the value of the two abilities switches: in PvE, you want full Infiltration Tactics rather than devoting points to additional armor.

Edited December 14, 2011 by Kitru

[Crimsonyoshi]

You are missing out on upheaval which makes shock extra strong

 

Good point, I've modified it slightly. I think the extra 20% in infiltration would give more dps than 3 seconds off of force breach.

 

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#6010MZGG0RkhMrtzZf0c.1

[AbhiX]

For a viable pvp build, you would need Celerity... It decreases cd for your trinket as well as interrupt.

The 30% armor bonus isn't that much compared to combat tactics buff, also you can change to combat tactics anytime! It costs 50 force, but its possible

[Dreamsinger]

so what is the attack priority/rotation for an infiltration Shadow?

[Dreamsinger]

also what do you all think of this build?

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#601MZhGrRzhMrtzZf0M.1

[GFreeGamer]

so what is the attack priority/rotation for an infiltration Shadow?

 

Check the Shadow Handbook by AstralFire, there's a whole section for Infiltration Shadow, including the rotation.

 

also what do you all think of this build?

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#601MZhGrRzhMrtzZf0M.1

 

Would help replies if you explained your intentions. PvP focused or PvE focused? Or balanced for leveling? That way you don't receive responses that don't sync with your intent.

Edited December 14, 2011 by GFreeGamer

[AbhiX]

also what do you all think of this build?

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#601MZhGrRzhMrtzZf0M.1

 

You would need all 3 points in upheaval to have the best chance for 2nd project proc

Next you are more of a single target Dps, you won't be using whirling blow much to enjoy "Situational awareness". Also 6% dmg bonus isn't much which is given by "applied force".

Points in Vigor and Subduing techiniques should help you more!

[Kitru]

You would need all 3 points in upheaval to have the best chance for 2nd project proc

Next you are more of a single target Dps, you won't be using whirling blow much to enjoy "Situational awareness". Also 6% dmg bonus isn't much which is given by "applied force".

Points in Vigor and Subduing techiniques should help you more!

 

Situational Awareness is actually an incredibly powerful tool because, in reducing the cost of Whirling Blow by 10, you make it substantially more spammable, allowing Infiltration to equal and potentially eclipse Balance in AoE damage capacity. Even for ST, it's an excellent choice because it reduces the CD on Battle Readiness, so that you can crank out the deeps with turbo-charged Shadow Technique 25% more.

 

Applied force is going to be remarkably useful since the abilities in question tend to be a substantial portion of your attack string, roughly 25-33% of it, in fact, both for AoE and ST. Depending on how the math lands, it could actually be a better expenditure of your last couple of points than Technique Mastery (6% armor pen for all melee attacks compared to 6% additional damage with 3 of your 5 melee attacks). Psychokinesis could also be a good choice, though only because of the Project cost decrease since you should be using Clairvoyant Strike more than Double Strike (of course, the benefits are likely diluted by the Circling Shadows discount, so it's not definite).

 

Vigor is generally inflated in its overall value. Since Consular Force regen doesn't change and isn't percentage based, Vigor only provides an additional 10 Force over the course of any fight in question. With Profundity and Masked Assault providing substantial amounts of Force over the course of any fight, the additional 10 Force from Vigor are largely worthless. They will only matter if you need to kill a target within 1-2 GCDs of starting a fight. Honestly, it's an entirely optional talent and not even a strong contender at that, compared to 15% additional armor or faster FoW and interrupt.

[Alratan]

Not to belittle the worth of other skills over Vigor, but it's worth bearing in mind that on any fight with reasonable amounts of non-DPS time due to movement, phase changes, buffs/debuffs, etc., Vigor does have some benefit as it cuts down on over 1s of wasted regen every so often.

[Kitru]

Not to belittle the worth of other skills over Vigor, but it's worth bearing in mind that on any fight with reasonable amounts of non-DPS time due to movement, phase changes, buffs/debuffs, etc., Vigor does have some benefit as it cuts down on over 1s of wasted regen every so often.

 

True, but this relies on you entering into these phases without high reserves and those periods lasting sufficiently long that you regen completely to full.

 

If there is 1 10 second stand-around phase every minute at the end of every minute in a 3 minute fight, you're getting 40 more Force than a Shadow without. Assuming you get .9 Force/sec benefit out of Profundity when in combat and 34 Force every 45 seconds from Blackout/Masked Assault (assuming you time the initial use intelligently so that it doesn't overlap with a stand around), you're only managing a 2.7% advantage in Force (40 Force / (150 seconds in combat * 8.9 force/sec+ 34 force/sec * (180 sec duration / 45 Blackout CD))) in a situation that vastly inflates the importance of such a talent. Shorter stand-around phases would drastically decrease the value of the additional 10 since it's not guaranteed you would be able to actually crest 100 Force without an extended period of no Force use.

Edited December 14, 2011 by Kitru

[Alratan]

Indeed, it is highly situational, but I wouldn't put it past there being at least one fight where it was beneficial - it just seems tailor made for high-annoyance boss scripts.

[Kitru]

Indeed, it is highly situational, but I wouldn't put it past there being at least one fight where it was beneficial - it just seems tailor made for high-annoyance boss scripts.

 

That's my problem with it. It's a talent that is only going to be remotely useful in a extreme scenario custom designed for it. I don't doubt that there will be some that you will be able to take advantage of it with (1st boss of the Eternity Vault definitely shows promise), but I'm not fond of taking a talent for an incredibly minor benefit for a majority if play and a moderate benefit (because, even at its best, it's not going to do much) for, likely, 1 or 2 fights in the entire game.

 

I rank Vigor on the same level as Mental Fortitude: they would be good, if only what they gave you was actually going to be useful.