Why I like AP.

[TristQueloon]

Im only level 42, but this is the build I plan to use

 

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#301hRMZrsrrobckdsZb.1

 

Right now I have the Full AP tree and the 2 in Pyro. I run in Ion Stance

 

I dont get why people hate AP? Im getting the same amount of protection medals I did when I was full ST or Carolina Parakeet. My DPS is much better. Usually top DPS or 2nd.

 

Maybe things will change when im 50, But I always hear people bragging about doing 400k dmg a match, so far in my entire time playing this game, never seen a person go over 250k in a wz, and I frequently get close to that.

 

Current Rotation is usually something like this.

 

Exploding Dart, Rapid shots till in range, Retractable Blade, Immolate, (procs free Rocket Punch), Rocket Punch, (RB and RP give chance for %100 RS crit), Rail Shot. The pop Hydrolic overide and Kite them with Flame Bursts.

 

So Far im loving it.

[RJMazz]

Interesting.

[Tenacity]

It seems to me the majority of AP hate revolves around pvp, which I dont regularly take part in so I cant say whether those opinions are well founded or not.

 

For PvE DPS, however, I definitely prefer prototypes over pyrotech. Pyrotech has poor heat management and overheats far too easily, when I tried it out for hardmode DPS runs I found myself constantly overheating and never able to keep up damage throughout boss fights. With advanced prototypes, on the other hand, I seem to do just as much damage - if not more - and I never (or at least very rarely) overheat, and when I do overheat I've always got vent heat available to keep myself going.

 

[TristQueloon]

Well, everything i posted was from a PvP perspective.

 

Even with 31 points in AP, and running with IGC stance, I never tend to have Heat problems unless its a prolonged 3 on 1 fight. Even then though a simple use of Vent Heat is enough to keep me going. AP just uses less heat. I mean Immolate which is a beast when it crits, uses half the heat of most other abilities. And your not spamming RS, your using it when it autocrits. So it just seems more efficient.

[Mapex]

Im only level 42, but this is the build I plan to use

 

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#301hRMZrsrrobckdsZb.1

 

Right now I have the Full AP tree and the 2 in Pyro. I run in Ion Stance

 

I dont get why people hate AP? Im getting the same amount of protection medals I did when I was full ST or Carolina Parakeet. My DPS is much better. Usually top DPS or 2nd.

 

Maybe things will change when im 50, But I always hear people bragging about doing 400k dmg a match, so far in my entire time playing this game, never seen a person go over 250k in a wz, and I frequently get close to that.

 

Current Rotation is usually something like this.

 

Exploding Dart, Rapid shots till in range, Retractable Blade, Immolate, (procs free Rocket Punch), Rocket Punch, (RB and RP give chance for %100 RS crit), Rail Shot. The pop Hydrolic overide and Kite them with Flame Bursts.

 

So Far im loving it.

 

Wow that was almost the same exact build I was planning earlier today. I also looked at doing the same except with CGC (crit chance, Flame Burst = DoT + slow, etc) but it would have been too squishy.

 

Without Prototype Cylinder Ventilation, you are still able to keep Heat low? How about the loss of 15% movement speed - you make up for it with the Rapid Shots / Rocket Punch slow I assume?

Edited January 27, 2012 by Mapex

[TristQueloon]

Wow that was almost the same exact build I was planning earlier today. I also looked at doing the same except with CGC (crit chance, Flame Burst = DoT + slow, etc) but it would have been too squishy.

 

Without Prototype Cylinder Ventilation, you are still able to keep Heat low? How about the loss of 15% movement speed - you make up for it with the Rapid Shots / Rocket Punch slow I assume?

 

 

APs big damage dealers are immolate (which is cheap heat cost, rocket punch (and first one is always free after immolate) and using railshot only on autocrit. Only real expensive ability is retractable blade but it never seems to really do to much heat.

 

Only times ive had heat issues is when fighting multiple enemies alone. I can kill one and almost the second before I need to vent heat.

 

 

I use the IGC Prof off rocket punch for the slow. And once that wears off I use hydrolic overload for the speed boost.

 

Ive really not needed the permanent 15% speed boost or prototype venting

Edited January 27, 2012 by TristQueloon

[Mapex]

APs big damage dealers are immolate (which is cheap heat cost, rocket punch (and first one is always free after immolate) and using railshot only on autocrit. Only real expensive ability is retractable blade but it never seems to really do to much heat.

 

Only times ive had heat issues is when fighting multiple enemies alone. I can kill one and almost the second before I need to vent heat.

 

 

I use the IGC Prof off rocket punch for the slow. And once that wears off I use hydrolic overload for the speed boost.

 

Ive really not needed the permanent 15% speed boost or prototype venting

 

When I was playing my PT in beta, I saw there was no point to save your Rail Shot for the auto-crit. The buff duration of Charged Gauntlets lasts long enough that you can Rail Shot on cooldown and consume auto-crits (and the CD of Rocket Punch/Immolate high enough that you rarely if ever proc the buff again before consuming a previous one). Saving Rail Shot for the auto-crit would be a DPS loss.

[ShockDevil]

Just one comment you cant use the Parakeet build at level 42, you must be at least level 48 but preferably 50. Hybrid builds do not really make sense while leveling.

[Dharknite]

OP your build is similar to what I am using at 48 though I went for Prototype flame thrower and have been able to utilize with some success in pvp. I though I would miss the benefits of HEC but I don't. Not constantly venting heat has made more aware of how I use abilities and I really don't miss 15% in combat movement as much I as thought. Using IGC raised my Kinetic and Force DR from 20 something % to 44% which I find has definitely helped me live longer.

 

I am think about shifting the points from ST to PT and see how things work with ICG.

[Mhak]

When Tenacity says she "prefers" prototypes over pyros for PvE dps, keep in mind her preference is just that, personal preference. Pyrotech does empirically much higher DPS in any PvE and PvP scenario. The heat is also a non-issue with a proper rotation although it does take some getting used to. Play however you want for sure, but any information indicting AP is superior to Pyrotech in terms of damage is disinformation.

 

As to the "hate" for AP, it's really not hate, it's just that AP is under-performing compared to Pyro at it's own game - PvP. It's more like....wishing AP could be more. Pyro is the straight-up massive DPS tree, AP is the utility/pvp DPS tree...the problem is AP doesn't gain enough utility to make up for what it loses in damage. A Pyrotech will consistently far outperform a prototype in damage and kills and the get same amount of protection. What does the AP gain for losing that killing power?

 

Not enough, is the problem. It either needs more utility or more damage to compete, and lots of people yell at Bioware every day (or would if we lived near their office with a megaphone) to buff it. Although to be fair Prototype is a fantastic spec for carrying a ball in Huttball, you will never be knocked off those damn ledges.

Edited January 27, 2012 by Mhak

[TristQueloon]

When Tenacity says she "prefers" prototypes over pyros for PvE dps, keep in mind her preference is just that, personal preference. Pyrotech does empirically much higher DPS in any PvE and PvP scenario. The heat is also a non-issue with a proper rotation although it does take some getting used to. Play however you want for sure, but any information indicting AP is superior to Pyrotech in terms of damage is disinformation.

 

As to the "hate" for AP, it's really not hate, it's just that AP is under-performing compared to Pyro at it's own game - PvP. It's more like....wishing AP could be more. Pyro is the straight-up massive DPS tree, AP is the utility/pvp DPS tree...the problem is AP doesn't gain enough utility to make up for what it loses in damage. A Pyrotech will consistently far outperform a prototype in damage and kills and the get same amount of protection. What does the AP gain for losing that killing power?

 

Not enough, is the problem. It either needs more utility or more damage to compete, and lots of people yell at Bioware every day (or would if we lived near their office with a megaphone) to buff it. Although to be fair Prototype is a fantastic spec for carrying a ball in Huttball, you will never be knocked off those damn ledges.

 

Here is where you lose me.

 

Im Valor 49 at the moment. I have yet to have a pyrospeced PT out dps by more that 1-2K dps. And even then I had more protection points than them.

 

Everyone is so quick to jump on the "Pyro does UBER TONS more dps". But Ive never seen it. Sure pyro does bigger numbers in general, wont deny that. But im on targets twice as much, and alot quicker than they are. So it while on paper Pyro may be the uber dps. In theory it always comes out about the same. Plus all those "utility" abilities are fantastic in Huttball, which is 9/10 matches I get as an Imperial Player on a PvP Server.

 

I really think if people actually gave the spec a chance, and I dont mean 2 matches. Try it for a few days to get into the rhythm. They would appreciate what AP can do. Its might not Top the dps. But it comes close with alot of utility. And for some people thats more important.

Edited January 27, 2012 by TristQueloon

[Torothin]

Im only level 42, but this is the build I plan to use

 

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#301hRMZrsrrobckdsZb.1

 

Right now I have the Full AP tree and the 2 in Pyro. I run in Ion Stance

 

I dont get why people hate AP? Im getting the same amount of protection medals I did when I was full ST or Carolina Parakeet. My DPS is much better. Usually top DPS or 2nd.

 

Maybe things will change when im 50, But I always hear people bragging about doing 400k dmg a match, so far in my entire time playing this game, never seen a person go over 250k in a wz, and I frequently get close to that.

 

Current Rotation is usually something like this.

 

Exploding Dart, Rapid shots till in range, Retractable Blade, Immolate, (procs free Rocket Punch), Rocket Punch, (RB and RP give chance for %100 RS crit), Rail Shot. The pop Hydrolic overide and Kite them with Flame Bursts.

 

So Far im loving it.

 

not to sound mean but you're only lvl 42. AP is lacking when it comes to PvP that is why hardly anyone uses it.

[Mhak]

Here is where you lose me.

 

Im Valor 49 at the moment. I have yet to have a pyrospeced PT out dps by more that 1-2K dps. And even then I had more protection points than them.

 

So sorry for having lost you. Everybody is so quick to say Pyro does uber more DPS because that's what everybody who has tested both specs has concluded. And we always have to deal with people like you who haven't done such testing but think AP is cooler and so ignore facts to suit your preferences, often hiding behind the shield of "NO COMBAT LOGS CANT PROVE IT."

 

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/854/screenshot2012010911075.jpg/

 

Good luck ever breaking 400k as AP, mid-300k is FANTASTIC damage as AP. 350k is a mediocre game at best for me as Pyrotech. And AP has access to more powerful AOE than Pyro so don't try that excuse. I am rank 52 and have bounced back forth between both specs dozens of times to test them both, for PvP and PvE. My most solid test was testing both specs on the Council fight in EV. AP takes about 33% longer to kill the same council member than Pyro.

 

Staying on a target twice as long doesn't mean you're doing more damage, especially when Pyro can effectively DPS at range and AP can't. AP's utility is designed, ultimately, to aide in the killing of your foes - and thus is outclassed by anything, utility or damage, that aides on the killing of your foes more effectively than the utility AP provides.

 

Saying "So it while on paper Pyro may be the uber dps. In theory it always comes out about the same" is completely absurd. They are not the same, in theory and in paper and in play. Pyrotech significantly out-damages AP. Your theorycrafting is invalid, I'm sorry.

Edited January 27, 2012 by Mhak

[Tenacity]

When Tenacity says she "prefers" prototypes over pyros for PvE dps, keep in mind her preference is just that, personal preference. Pyrotech does empirically much higher DPS in any PvE and PvP scenario. The heat is also a non-issue with a proper rotation although it does take some getting used to. Play however you want for sure, but any information indicting AP is superior to Pyrotech in terms of damage is disinformation.

 

As to the "hate" for AP, it's really not hate, it's just that AP is under-performing compared to Pyro at it's own game - PvP. It's more like....wishing AP could be more. Pyro is the straight-up massive DPS tree, AP is the utility/pvp DPS tree...the problem is AP doesn't gain enough utility to make up for what it loses in damage. A Pyrotech will consistently far outperform a prototype in damage and kills and the get same amount of protection. What does the AP gain for losing that killing power?

 

Not enough, is the problem. It either needs more utility or more damage to compete, and lots of people yell at Bioware every day (or would if we lived near their office with a megaphone) to buff it. Although to be fair Prototype is a fantastic spec for carrying a ball in Huttball, you will never be knocked off those damn ledges.

 

When we have damage meters and can actually confirm numbers, then I'll agree.

 

Right now, the only factor we can use to base effectiveness on is 'feel', and that isnt exceptionally reliable. I've tried both pyrotech and prototypes for dps on hardmode flashpoints, and to me it 'feels' like prototypes is doing more damage, more reliably, and with fewer heat management issues. Obviously it didnt 'feel' that way to you, but until we have hard numbers neither one of us can claim that one or the other is empirically better.

[MithrandirofR]

i don't care about PvE, so no comment there. but in PvP, i can say pyro > AP. why? only one reason: i can bring down every healer with tank, both just through guard. i can't do that with AP. sustained damage and maybe DPS is better with AP. but burst is what matter in PvP. and there is pyro spec king. and i have always higher total damage with pyro than with AP. and when they cc me, i'm just happy, because i can went heat this way

[SDKyron]

When you say Pyro, i guess you mean a full pyro tree, but what about a spec roughly like this:

 

2-21-18

 

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#3010MZMsMMRrcoZfhbrzh.1

[TristQueloon]

So sorry for having lost you. Everybody is so quick to say Pyro does uber more DPS because that's what everybody who has tested both specs has concluded. And we always have to deal with people like you who haven't done such testing but think AP is cooler and so ignore facts to suit your preferences, often hiding behind the shield of "NO COMBAT LOGS CANT PROVE IT."

 

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/854/screenshot2012010911075.jpg/

 

Good luck ever breaking 400k as AP, mid-300k is FANTASTIC damage as AP. 350k is a mediocre game at best for me as Pyrotech. And AP has access to more powerful AOE than Pyro so don't try that excuse. I am rank 52 and have bounced back forth between both specs dozens of times to test them both, for PvP and PvE. My most solid test was testing both specs on the Council fight in EV. AP takes about 33% longer to kill the same council member than Pyro.

 

Staying on a target twice as long doesn't mean you're doing more damage, especially when Pyro can effectively DPS at range and AP can't. AP's utility is designed, ultimately, to aide in the killing of your foes - and thus is outclassed by anything, utility or damage, that aides on the killing of your foes more effectively than the utility AP provides.

 

Saying "So it while on paper Pyro may be the uber dps. In theory it always comes out about the same" is completely absurd. They are not the same, in theory and in paper and in play. Pyrotech significantly out-damages AP. Your theorycrafting is invalid, I'm sorry.

 

For someone who seems to feel the need to instantly run in and bash everyone for "not doing the testing and research" you sure jump to a lot conclusions that you yourself have no facts in.

 

Please point to a single instance where I said this was DPS build.

Please point to a single instance where I said AP does more DPS than Pyro.

Please point to a single instance where I said AP is better that Pyro in all ways.

 

You cant, because I never stated those things, these are conclusions that you jumped to with no facts or evidence.

 

Pyro does more dmg that AP. But for SOME people, we care about more than just the dps numbers at the end of the match. Some people like to play defensive, some people like to plan the stun and cc game, others like a mix.

 

The whole point of this thread is that AP is not as completely horrid as people like you try to convince everyone.

 

You are right in one aspect, AP does less DPS than Pyro. AP has things to offer other than DPS that Pyro cannot give. Its about play choice. And no matter how biased YOU are, it doesn't change the fact that other people can enjoy something thats not the top DPS build ever.

[Mhak]

For someone who seems to feel the need to instantly run in and bash everyone for "not doing the testing and research" you sure jump to a lot conclusions that you yourself have no facts in.

 

Please point to a single instance where I said this was DPS build.

Please point to a single instance where I said AP does more DPS than Pyro.

Please point to a single instance where I said AP is better that Pyro in all ways.

 

You cant, because I never stated those things, these are conclusions that you jumped to with no facts or evidence.

 

Pyro does more dmg that AP. But for SOME people, we care about more than just the dps numbers at the end of the match. Some people like to play defensive, some people like to plan the stun and cc game, others like a mix.

 

The whole point of this thread is that AP is not as completely horrid as people like you try to convince everyone.

 

You are right in one aspect, AP does less DPS than Pyro. AP has things to offer other than DPS that Pyro cannot give. Its about play choice. And no matter how biased YOU are, it doesn't change the fact that other people can enjoy something thats not the top DPS build ever.

 

There's so many things wrong with this. I'll cover them all in order.

 

1 - I'm not bashing you. I never insulted you. I stated facts that were counter to statements you made, because what you said is disinformation and deserved to be corrected. I did this so every powertech would have accurate information instead of the inaccurate information you were spreading, I never once insulted you in doing so.

 

2 - I never said that you said any of those 3 points you're trying to get me to point out to you. Why you're asking me to point them out to you is beyond me. You are being overly defensive and putting words in my mouth. What you said was, and I'll quote it a second time for you - "So it while on paper Pyro may be the uber dps. In theory it always comes out about the same". That statement is false. That is the statement I took issue with. Not whatever else it is you're trying to get me to point out to you for some reason.

 

3 - I never said AP was horrid. What I said was along the lines of, and in more words - "AP isn't hated, it's just that it's outclassed by Pyrotech at PvP and needs to be buffed." But I appreciate you putting words in my mouth a second time. Fine display of maturity.

 

4 - You're calling *me* biased? All I did was test both specs without judgement in controlled environments, then tell you the facts. That is not biased. You argued against these facts in favor of personal preference without having done any testing for yourself. THAT IS BIAS, by definition.

 

I could care less how you play. I never once tried to tell you how to play. All I did was state the facts, and you're getting so defensive about it that you're trying to say I insulted you and made claims I never did. All I ever did here was make objective statements. You're acting like a child.

Edited January 28, 2012 by Mhak

[Mhak]

When we have damage meters and can actually confirm numbers, then I'll agree.

 

By your same logic I could say "Shield-Tech does more damage than Pyrotech. It feels like it does. There are no combat logs out yet so you can't prove me wrong."

 

I'm sorry but that's just not a valid defense. People have tested this, I'm far from the only one. AP does less damage than Pyro, tested and confirmed in controlled tested using time as the judging factor. You might as well argue the sky is yellow =/

Edited January 28, 2012 by Mhak

[TristQueloon]

There's so many things wrong with this. I'll cover them all in order.

 

I did this so every powertech would have accurate information instead of the inaccurate information you were spreading

 

That statement is false.

 

 

 

You're calling *me* biased? All I did was test both specs without judgement in controlled environments, then tell you the facts.

 

 

Please share these cold hard facts in the form of data and proof. Ohh thats right you cant, all you can do is share your opinion and your personal experience. Not Facts.

Edited January 28, 2012 by TristQueloon

[AmandaBynes]

Hey guys, psychology major here. I think you should both relax, its an internet forum for a video game.

[Mhak]

How do you think data is collected? By experience. It is valid. It takes 20 seconds longer to kill the same council member on HM EV as AP than it does as Pyro, 100% of other factors including gear and buffs being the same. I tested this once, so some people point out there might be a randomness factor. I disagree, or I at least believe such a factor to be minimized due to the time of the fight (it takes a while, mob has over 100k health).

 

But even if there was such a factor, it couldn't possibly be more than 5-10 seconds, which is being extremely generous. However, such a factor works both ways - it could have taken 5-10 seconds longer as well as shorter. Either way though, it is an empirical fact that Pyro does a fair deal more damage than AP.

 

You can deny that all you want dude. I don't care . But you look funny doing so, especially without doing any tests for yourself. I just don't appreciate you putting words in my mouth and calling me biased. You're the one being insulting here.

Edited January 28, 2012 by Mhak

[Othed]

Saying it takes 20 secs longer isn't proof. No videos or timer or anything. And I saw a post were someone made the same claim. He said he finished first with Pyro and then third with AP. Now he is assuming that his group does the same damage each run. Now we have all had bad runs and good runs as dps. So that isn't proof. And the spreadsheets favor burst damage. We can't tell for a fact which does more damage. But Pyro does seem to do more. That could just be burst vs sustained dps and both equal or with in 5%. If that is the case then yeah 100k boss would take 20 sec. longer on one spec compared to the other. And if it is only 5% then gear or shorten that 20 secs to about 5 or 10 which is a petty difference.