So...Is this the end of MMOs?

[Nighthawked]

I am not looking to start a big fight or anything. I love this game, and I used to play WoW all the time (until this game came out). However, many of the complaints seem to be comparing this game to WoW and expecting it to be comparable.

 

No you really cannot compare this game to WoW. And please do not start the car analogies. WoW has had continuous development for 10 years now. Blizzard has had many millions of players for many years to iron out the issues. The game engine has 10 years of polish, and that is amazing.

 

I recently read some news about Blizzard's next MMO, Titan. In the article, it said that a job position opened up that referenced product placement. I think Blizzard knows that the pay-to-play MMOs are all dead now. Still, I do not think even Titan can be compared to WoW, people will say it sucks as well. Maybe Blizzard thinks the only way a game can succeed in today's market is to make it free to play from the release. We will not know for sure until later in the development though.

 

SO, lets start an honest dicsussion.....Is the MMO genre dead now? If a new MMO is not an exact copy of WoW's 10 years both content and polish, is it am immediate failure? I mean dead in the sense that nothing, not even the best game ever developed can compare to WoW when people do so?

[knightblaster]

It's not that it's dead, it's just that it's impossible for a new game to compete effectively with WoW. So, in effect, the market for other non-WoW MMOs is theoretically large but practically capped in the few hundred thousand range (which was, of course, also the norm for MMOs pre-WoW).

 

The future is definitely moving towards free to play models, it's cascading throughout the industry. It will be interesting to see what Titan actually is, to be honest.

[Flowerslayer]

I am not looking to start a big fight or anything. I love this game, and I used to play WoW all the time (until this game came out). However, many of the complaints seem to be comparing this game to WoW and expecting it to be comparable.

 

No you really cannot compare this game to WoW. And please do not start the car analogies. WoW has had continuous development for 10 years now. Blizzard has had many millions of players for many years to iron out the issues. The game engine has 10 years of polish, and that is amazing.

 

I recently read some news about Blizzard's next MMO, Titan. In the article, it said that a job position opened up that referenced product placement. I think Blizzard knows that the pay-to-play MMOs are all dead now. Still, I do not think even Titan can be compared to WoW, people will say it sucks as well. Maybe Blizzard thinks the only way a game can succeed in today's market is to make it free to play from the release. We will not know for sure until later in the development though.

 

SO, lets start an honest dicsussion.....Is the MMO genre dead now? If a new MMO is not an exact copy of WoW's 10 years both content and polish, is it am immediate failure? I mean dead in the sense that nothing, not even the best game ever developed can compare to WoW when people do so?

 

Come at me bro!

[Idali]

MMO is no dead, far from it.

However the WoW perfected model of quests, rewards, classes etc is quickly becoming the main reason why so many people are dissatisfied with the current games.

Because ultimately the game you play doesn't matters if all use the same mechanics anyway.

[keijim]

SO, lets start an honest dicsussion.....Is the MMO genre dead now? If a new MMO is not an exact copy of WoW's 10 years both content and polish, is it am immediate failure? I mean dead in the sense that nothing, not even the best game ever developed can compare to WoW when people do so?

 

MMO genre is not dead and it wont be for a very long years, since WoW is many of the playerbase's first MMO, they always compare no matter which MMO comes and goes.

 

There are some MMOs that are not WoW clone and still considered successful. When people understand that WoW is not an authentic MMO, they stop comparing games to WoW. Also people see what they want to see.

 

No game is a failure till it is closed down. That's my not so holy opinion.

[Mr_Crueak]

I don't know about anyone else, but to me the real TRUE mmo's ended when WOW was released. Once WOW released the TRUE mmo's stoppped being produced in favor of themepark rides for the masses!

 

Yes i know it's good business practices i just miss the good ole days sometimes. That being said as much as SWTOR is themepark based i actually love the game myself. Mainly because i like story based games so this one appeals to me for now. Once i finished the stories my tune may change but for now i love it.

[Buur]

The monthly payment model is probably dying. MMOs in general aren't.

 

As for nothing being able to compare with WoW, well... you can't release a game that is basically a WoW clone at end game and have none of the polish of WoW. It's one thing to not be as completely polished as WoW, since Blizzard has had just over 7 years of live development to get things right. But when you launch a AAA Star Wars MMO that is essentially just like WoW, you can't make stupid mistakes like having no combat log, a non-functional auction house, a terrible unmoddable UI, vendors that have no workable sort options, trade skills that are worthless, etc. You just can't.

[jedip_enguin]

The unfortunate truth is that a product has to compete with what is on the market at the time, not what the market was offering 10 years ago.

 

Consumers are a fickle bunch, and (other than the zealots) will go where they feel they are getting the most bang for their buck.

 

However, as a guy who's been playing WoW since launch, I find SW: ToR ticks all the boxes for me in all the important areas, so I dont think the analogy applies.

[Nighthawked]

MMO genre is not dead and it wont be for a very long years, since WoW is many of the playerbase's first MMO, they always compare no matter which MMO comes and goes.

 

There are some MMOs that are not WoW clone and still considered successful. When people understand that WoW is not an authentic MMO, they stop comparing games to WoW. Also people see what they want to see.

 

No game is a failure till it is closed down. That's my not so holy opinion.

 

It is like people forget that they can like two things

 

I LOVE WoW...I get bored of it some times, but I played that game SOOO many hours. Yet I still LOVE this game.

 

This reminds me of the Star Trek vs Star Wars debate many fans have. "You must choose ONE!!!!"

 

Granted this game still has problems. And granted, I still find some bugs in WoW. But I like them both just fine.

[Perhilion]

I still have high hopes for Secret World even though BW crushed my dreams like a bug...

[BigBadEdward]

No you really cannot compare this game to WoW

 

Yes you can.

 

SWToR has story, made a lot more real by the voice acting but WoW had story too. The more important thing was that it had a LOT more to do, a lot more diversity in it's environments. This was all at launch, you could play up to about level 30 in 6 completely different environments (3 per side). With SWToR, you play up to level 10 in a few hours and BOOM, you now have two paths, one for Empire and one for Republic.

 

The size of the environment was also much, much larger in WoW. You had two huge continents to explore, not some small area of sewers to much around in.

 

I could go on but the bottom line is that they exhausted all their resources on the story and forgot to make a decent game to go along with it.

[Redsuns_]

Guild Wars 2

[knightblaster]

MMO is no dead, far from it.

However the WoW perfected model of quests, rewards, classes etc is quickly becoming the main reason why so many people are dissatisfied with the current games.

Because ultimately the game you play doesn't matters if all use the same mechanics anyway.

 

I hear that a lot, but it doesn't seem to be killing the FPS market, where the games have all had the same mechanic for years now, yet release every year or two with new maps, updated graphics and a few new doo-dads to essentially the same formula they've had for years -- and millions upon millions buy them.

 

So, I'm not sure that's what it is. I think it has more to do with the reality that in an MMO, your achievements persist, so for a new MMO to compete with the existing one, where you have all of your achievements and friends and guilds and progression and gear and so on, it has to be head and shoulders above the old game -- otherwise the switching costs are too high. And that's a very high bar, indeed, for a new MMO to meet, given the sun development time and cost for these games as it is.

 

I am all in favor of new kinds of gameplay for MMOs, but I don't harbor any illusions that those will lead to blockbuster success titles. They have not done so in the past. The issue isn't so much the model, but that, unlike FPSs, MMOs are "sticky" in that there are switching costs and persistent achievements in the existing one, that present a formidable hurdle to overcome for a new entrant.

[MarcusElliott]

Games are too lazy to come up with their own crap. Plain and simple. They care more about profit than long term stay. Go look at older games that are still alive and kicking. It's the mechanics. I mean hell The Realm an mmo that came out in 96' is still charging money to play. I'm still waiting for a polished graphic uo usque game, sandbox, fear of dying, no carebear mechanics. You could have over 200 players on a screen pvping without lag. WoW, Rift, Warhammer, LoTR, SWToR, etc. type of games either bore you fast, or appeal to addicts who invest too much time to quit.

[Mr_Crueak]

Guild Wars 2

 

you will be dissapointed

[Mitheril]

It's not that it's dead, it's just that it's impossible for a new game to compete effectively with WoW. So, in effect, the market for other non-WoW MMOs is theoretically large but practically capped in the few hundred thousand range (which was, of course, also the norm for MMOs pre-WoW).

 

The future is definitely moving towards free to play models, it's cascading throughout the industry. It will be interesting to see what Titan actually is, to be honest.

 

I know very little about Titan, but I heard rumors about an First person shooter?....in that case I wonder if it could possibly be a an MMO that will be released on consoles as well. That would be something that could change the market quite a bit.

[Lrddarkwolf]

This game has vendors, Zelda; the first one; had vendors there for SWTOR is a clone of Zelda. Now where are my health fairies, glass jar, lantern and big freaking dungeon key at.

 

Any game can be compared to another one, even if it is over say 20 years old.

Edited January 26, 2012 by Lrddarkwolf

[MrTijger]

Guild Wars 2

 

Maybe in June maybe later and then you all will be doing the sae thing to GW2 that you are doing to SWTOR except the devs will care less because you wont be paying a sub.

 

I know this because thats exactly what happened with GW1 as well.

Edited January 26, 2012 by MrTijger

[Nighthawked]

Games are too lazy to come up with their own crap. Plain and simple. They care more about profit than long term stay. Go look at older games that are still alive and kicking. It's the mechanics. I mean hell The Realm an mmo that came out in 96' is still charging money to play. I'm still waiting for a polished graphic uo usque game, sandbox, fear of dying, no carebear mechanics. You could have over 200 players on a screen pvping without lag. WoW, Rift, Warhammer, LoTR, SWToR, etc. type of games either bore you fast, or appeal to addicts who invest too much time to quit.

 

I agree. When I found Minecraft I thought.....this game has not been "widely" done before. I know it was based off another game or two, but not to this scale.

 

I am addicted to that game because it is so different, and there are lots of stuff to do! I certainly got my money worth 100 times by now!

[Scandana]

you will be dissapointed

 

Why would he be? Can I see into your crystal ball please?

 

As old as GW1 is (almost as old as WoW), I find it still really immersive. Why wouldn't GW2 be the same if not better? If they pull off half the things they claim (and so far at the cons they have been showing it), I think Arenanet may well have the FUTURE of MMOs.

[ChipHazard]

Why would he be? Can I see into your crystal ball please?

 

As old as GW1 is (almost as old as WoW), I find it still really immersive. Why wouldn't GW2 be the same if not better? If they pull off half the things they claim (and so far at the cons they have been showing it), I think Arenanet may well have the FUTURE of MMOs.

 

With the mythical savior status people are giving GW2.. Why wouldn't he be?

[supZ]

MMO is no dead, far from it.

However the WoW perfected model of quests, rewards, classes etc is quickly becoming the main reason why so many people are dissatisfied with the current games.

Because ultimately the game you play doesn't matters if all use the same mechanics anyway.

 

essentially this. love it or hate it wow 'got it right' any mmo that wants to compete needs to take that onboard and offer similar functionality or it'll be slated for not having it (point proven time again on this forum)

 

on the flip side there'll be the haters that will slate it for having similar aspects without the realisation that if someone already has done the best way of doing it, why offer a worse option just to be different? (AH vs GM?)

 

the key is to offer these pieces of functionality but introduce unique gameplay aspects that set you apart from the rest.

 

BW have done well with this imo. full voice acting, personal/class storylines, advanced class system, crew skills, companions, multiarea binding, rezzing in place (no ghost running), etc.. all different from the wow staple way of doing things.

 

anyone saying its wow with lightsabers is wrong. just because you press the same keys to move your char and people are asking for lfg/addons/macros/threat meters etc.. to be put in wont turn it into 'wow with lightsabers' either.

 

swtor has enough unique features to set it apart, it now just needs some of the basic functionality mmo players today have come to expect.

 

its simple annoyances as well that need to be addressed. i.e. you cant right click on people in chat to invite/whisper and the map locks you into where you are with your only options to move around it being is there is a 'doorway' nearby. no way of viewing other parts of the map. its annoyingly limited. add the ability to zoom out of the area you're in up to the planet and then to zoom back in in any portion of the map you wish. simple functionality that goes a long way to smoothing out the rough edges and making ti a winning game.

 

this is just one or 2 small examples of annoyances. they're not game breaking but they are irritating and its these things people get frustrated with along with the 'big gamebreaking bugs' of course.. not that i've ever had anything id consider gamebreaking. think some people are overstating the case with a lot of these issues.

Edited January 26, 2012 by supZ

[Riotus]

The problem is that wow raised the bar. Before wow if a mmo had 500k subs it was considered successfull. Now every development team thinks the only way to be work with a sub based game is 1mill+. And the only way to achieve those numbers is to cater to the casuals.

 

I want an mmo Similar to UO where i can murder other PCs and take their stuff and be a wanted man. No mmo has ever come close to the feeling of pre-ren UO.....

 

Problem with that? no casual would play. the first time they lost all their gear they would ragequit... Other problem being MMOs these days are to gear centric. in UO if u lost all your gear u were out maybe 40-50k gold depending on server, sucked but u could have ur stuff back the next day. or just go kill someone else and take their stuff...

 

ah i miss hardcore mmos......

[DenimSamurai]

This game tries too hard to be a MMO. It too closely follows the standard of the industry in terms of quests to not be compared to the industry standard. I love the storylines, I love the WZs, I like the FPs but I think most of us just plain hate the extremely linear singleplayer and the unnecessarily long travel times to get anywhere. The world doesn't feel big that way nor do I care if it feels big.

[Fight]

The sandbox was emptied and they installed a jacuzzi instead.

 

Commercial games are not made by gamers any more, they are made by companies for profit. I'm not arguing against or for this or reminiscing on "times gone by", simply stating hard facts.

 

For a game to work in this market it has to follow certain guidelines set out by previous games who perfected the model, golden rules if you like such as: Don't step too far out the box, the playerbase will rip you apart if you fail, offer theme park style progression or the community will rip you apart, protect your investors or the game will collapse and the community will rip you apart - are you noticing a trend here? Is it our fault that games are so "safe" now?