The morality system is a sad take on the force.

[Maeleena]

As soon as you used the Lord's name in vain at the end you lost me. It's a stupid game based on a make-believe world. You may want to re-evaluate and prioritize the things you care about in life.

He actually lost me as soon as he made a reference to the worst movies in the history of movies, those being Eps 1-3.

[Jkomega]

You are either twirl mustache insane killer, or a idiot who isnt aware of anything and super niave.

[Sykologist]

I used to be a hardcore story-fact checking Star Wars fan, but then I took a girlfriend to the knee.

[Wazooty]

I wanted to be an honorable sith warrior, akin to a samurai or something. I didn't really want to spare all my enemies, and generally the cold hard logic of honor is probably seen as "dark", but in order to do that I had to choose light options, but none of what I felt I wanted was truly light. There needs to be lawful evil, not just psychopath evil. I'm not a psychopath, I'm a cold and honorable killer.

[Ripchord]

I still maintain that the biggest problem of the LS/DS system is that it is POINTLESS- it doesnt change anything (NOT ONE THING) about how the storyline ends up going.

 

As far as sidequests go, I also love how, as long as the option doesn't have a LS/DS icon, you can SAY WHATEVER YOU WANT, you can treat the NPCS like ABSOLUTE DIRT, and they'll just shrug it off and still give you your quest/reward/etc.

 

I AGREE!

*spoiler below*

As a trooper, I did Dark Side option to save Jaxo and sacrifice 314 cilivians so I could sleep with her again but instead she runs off, I get scolded, lose affection with Elara, and then never hear or see Jaxo again except in a letter saying "I have to leave and find myself". *** *** ***?

 

BW: "Here's 2-3 options"

You: -Makes Choice-

BW: OHHH CHOICE 1 HAPPENS REGARDLESS (Or you do something and it's never spoken of again so doesn't matter).

[Pvtcarnage]

Just like BW other games I always thought it was a poor attempt to add complexity/immersion to the game. If they some how made the story better (republic) then the choices might seem like your more involved. They should also have a neutral set of lvls for those of us that don't care to be "good" or "evil"

[Buur]

How would you have designed it?

 

What if I played an Agent that was just very slightly more lightside oriented than dark? What would you do differently for him, as a designer/programmer/developer that would be immediately different from the Sith Jugg next to me who is just a little bit darkside oriented, but has taken a vow to never kill without just cause?

 

How would our gear differ at 50? How about our stories? How would something like the story in Black Talon play out for us if we were grouped together? COULD we even be grouped together, being that we could have completely different moral fiber, and just butt heads on how any situation should be tackled?

 

What about Ops?

 

Killing someone in PvP is really the same as in PvE when it comes down to morality, how would you satisy/justify giving players against killing senselessly a PvP fix if they desired? Could you also develope a system that only pits opposite moralities against one another in PvP? What about the neutral ones, which Faction would they be placed on in Huttball if you designed the above?

 

 

 

The implication you're making is that the design choice was poor... but you're not substantiating your claim. At all.

 

I would have designed it so there wasn't a vendor that only gave you rewards if you barreled down one path mindlessly.

[Maeleena]

Just like BW other games I always thought it was a poor attempt to add complexity/immersion to the game. If they some how made the story better (republic) then the choices might seem like your more involved. They should also have a neutral set of lvls for those of us that don't care to be "good" or "evil"

The thing is, people can only be good or evil, there is no mixture of both. This really is black and white in the sense that a choice can only be deemed good or evil.

 

Now there are different levels of good and evil, but that can't be shown in a game due to the complexity of it and the inplausibility of implementing it in a game.

[Thozi]

There is a mission to get some relics on korriban with sith warrior and later there is light side option to share/give the relics to some other apprentice. If you give him the relics you have to run back and get them all over again.

[Loladarulz]

This dark/light morality system doesn't work well because it is failed system and it was also fail in KOTOR I/II. I am fan of KOTOR games btw.

 

Sith should not be just brainless brute savage murderers, they should plot and scheme, they are supposed to be master manipulators and deceivers, they have their selfish goals and use dark side of the force to achieve it. We want this implemented in the game.

 

On the other side, Jedi are better presented in the game, tho they are pictured a bit naive and too friendly/ too soft. They are all LIGHT - give them some shades of gray, some characterization.

 

SW games (kotor i/ii/ TOR) do mostly this: take stupidest brutal brainless action = dark points = dark side. Kill for no reason = YES + dark points. Use some creativity/imagionation pls.

 

I can to some degree understand that killing for pleasure and joy awards dark points, but this system should have been better developed.

 

It certainly is not late to improve "morality" for future content.

[kalexkhan]

So there should be rewards for being indecisive? You need to grow a pair, and decide which course you want to take, and not have the game cater to your indecisiveness.

 

If this assertion is correct. Then you have to level with me right now and admit story doesn't matter at all, pick white, or red, and click it every time no matter what so your not gimped on relic choices at 50 and that's the end of it.

 

Additionally...

 

Some people do see a polarized world of good and bad, and I'm really curious how you might feel in a game like this if you never really knew for sure whether something was light or dark until after you clicked it?

[Dominemesis]

That's mostly true, but not entirely. The Sith Warrior's storyline is affected at a certain point by your previous LS/DS choices.

 

As to the OP, I agree entirely. There were a number of situations where I had to pick a decision that didn't seem to jive with the associated LS/DS effect. For example, virtually any time you choose to kill someone, the game will make that a Dark Side decision. Yet every light side wielding Jedi that I met in my storyline constantly tried to kill me no matter how much I tried to talk it out with them. The beaviour of "light side" characters in the storyline are completely at odds with the spoonfed morality system the player is presented with. If they kill me, it's fine. But if I kill them, it's the dark side.

 

That is because there is only one predetermined outcome for how the set piece will play out, all that changes is the dialogue. that actually is something that is pretty common in the game...we'll just refluff it, but nothing will actually change mechanically...see the mirrored classes for instance.

[Maeleena]

If this assertion is correct. Then you have to level with me right now and admit story doesn't matter at all, pick white, or red, and click it every time no matter what so your not gimped on relic choices at 50 and that's the end of it.

 

Additionally...

 

Some people do see a polarized world of good and bad, and I'm really curious how you might feel in a game like this if you never really knew for sure whether something was light or dark until after you clicked it?

Like I said before, they can't make a game with a more generalized morality system in place, because it would take developers too long to implement it and it wouldn't be feasible.

 

Also, BW could have implemented 15 different levels of Good/Evil, and people would still be complaining that there isn't enough choice or there is too much choice.

 

People just complain to complain.

[PibbyPib]

Yes, and you get to choose between having a character who is a complete psychopath, or one that is dillusional and utterly unaware of her surroundings. There is no version of 'character X' that takes a lawful-evil Sith into consideration. You are either a Jedi masquerading as a Sith Lord or you are the devil incarnate with your little demonling associate.

 

Yeah, I do think they missed an important characterization with the Sith. A light side Sith, as presented, doesn't make much sense. They seem like Jedi who just got off at the wrong bus stop.

 

I think the Agent's storyline does a much better job of presenting different angles, btw. The one-note, sadistic nut is sometimes there, but so are a couple of more subtle, sympathetic shades of a "bad guy".

[Foolishpig]

Because a line has to be drawn somewhere. Things like intention, state of mind, ulterior motive are too complex to realistically model in a game so they have to define a scope and limit what's available accordingly.

 

I definitely agree with this, but I also think that some people are expecting way too much from an MMO. Frankly, you're not playing SW:Your Own Republic, or even World of Youcraft. This is a game that tries to cater to millions of subscribers. The OP's idea of the force might not be the same as...a lot of people, and apparently it isn't the same as the writers/developers of the game. That's fine, but asking to have a game designed specifically around your mindset requires...a job at Bioware?

 

Granted, there really isn't a long term consequence to actions that I've seen so far, but playing a BH, is shooting a guy in the face for extra money a dark side action? I'd say yes, and admittedly funny. I don't think there could be any kind of long term consequence for that, other than whether or not my bank account would be hurting because of that decision. Also, is committing genocide on the native inhabitants of a planet jedi thing to do (jedi starting planet)? Probably not, but that's a value judgement. Should there be a long term consequence? Maybe, but the mechanic of story to cover fetch and grind questing and leveling apparently allows for genocide.

 

So yes, I agree with the OP to the extent that there are things that may seem lacking for now. However, the game was meant to be played in the way that you want to play it, meaning you want to play like a "lawful/evil" class, adhere to what the sith/jedi or republic/empire are telling you in a absolute way, no matter what. And long term consequences, on a long enough timeline, may end up being deus ex machinas, and honestly I don't know which would be worse.

 

Ultimately, I'm just happy an MMO even has a story.

[kalexkhan]

Sith should not be just brainless brute savage murderers, they should plot and scheme, they are supposed to be master manipulators and deceivers, they have their selfish goals and use dark side of the force to achieve it. We want this implemented in the game.

 

On the other side, Jedi are better presented in the game, tho they are pictured a bit naive and too friendly/ too soft. They are all LIGHT - give them some shades of gray, some characterization.

 

SW games (kotor i/ii/ TOR) do mostly this: take stupidest brutal brainless action = dark points = dark side. Kill for no reason = YES + dark points. Use some creativity/imagionation pls.

 

I can to some degree understand that killing for pleasure and joy awards dark points, but this system should have been better developed.

 

It certainly is not late to improve "morality" for future content.

 

I agree. And you gotta think the writers have gotta be bored with making it so polarized to. I suspect with most story content hereafter, they're going to want to express more interesting themes with this system.

 

The best quest and plot lines by far are when things get more interesting, or when a character has a bit more depth and it surprises you. The majority is so thin and trite and obvious so far. This coupled with the fact theirs relic rewards for only being all light or dark at endgame trivializes the whole thing right now.

[Maeleena]

I agree. And you gotta think the writers have gotta be bored with making it so polarized to. I suspect with most story content hereafter, they're going to want to express more interesting themes with this system.

 

The best quest and plot lines by far are when things get more interesting, or when a character has a bit more depth and it surprises you. The majority is so thin and trite and obvious so far. This coupled with the fact theirs relic rewards for only being all light or dark at endgame trivializes the whole thing right now.

Actually it amplifies it, because it shows if you actually make a choice of character type and stick to it, you get rewarded, but if you seesaw back and forth, you get nothing for being indecisive, which is how it should be, because in the real world, if you are indecisive you get very little out of anything you do.

[kalexkhan]

Like I said before, they can't make a game with a more generalized morality system in place, because it would take developers too long to implement it and it wouldn't be feasible.

 

Also, BW could have implemented 15 different levels of Good/Evil, and people would still be complaining that there isn't enough choice or there is too much choice.

 

People just complain to complain.

 

Well people complain cause they have reason to.... But I agree with everything else though. You're right, they cannot make a system robust enough. That does make the complaints about this kinda thing white noise, but the discussions (and theirs a difference) can still be worthwhile.

 

You didn't answer my question either... For the sake of discussion...

 

Imagine if we had no idea anything we are compelled to choose and click which affiliation would be assigned to it until after the choice is made?

 

To me that would make it way more interesting, but I know most everyone would only feel frustrated by it, and would wiki their way around it to make sure they milk the points they want further trivializing the whole concept of morality.

[_Verja_]

They only real problem I have with the morality scale is that you are punished if you don't go full blown light or dark.

 

Why even bother making choices during questing then? Why dont I just click light or dark when I make my character if the game is obviously designed with me being full blown one or full blown the other.

 

I like the concept of a Grey Jedi. One who serves the Republic, but might make choices that aren't always light side. For The Greater Good kind of thing. Unfortunately I get punished for that at 50.

[Fraxture]

Yeah. But, again, that's a systematic issue with being force-fed a story like this. The illusion of choice does not equate to real, actual choice. Ninety-nine percent of the decisions in this game really boil down to the following: will you accept this quest? A) yes, B) no.

 

So, other MMOs offer more choices in responding to a quest giver?

[PibbyPib]

How would you have designed it?

 

What if I played an Agent that was just very slightly more lightside oriented than dark? What would you do differently for him, as a designer/programmer/developer that would be immediately different from the Sith Jugg next to me who is just a little bit darkside oriented, but has taken a vow to never kill without just cause?

 

How would our gear differ at 50? How about our stories? How would something like the story in Black Talon play out for us if we were grouped together? COULD we even be grouped together, being that we could have completely different moral fiber, and just butt heads on how any situation should be tackled?

 

Personally, I think the treatment needs to focus on the world rather than gear.

 

Have areas that dampen the stats of Dark Side characters and boost those of Light Side, for instance-- the stronger your alignment, the greater the buff/debuff. Someone who is neutral in their alignment could move through either area and remain unaffected.

 

It would give you an additional axis to split the players down, as well-- who knows? Maybe you could even have alignment-themed Warzones, with dark side players on one side and light side on the other, with neutrals sprinkled in wherever they're needed.

[Mackuss]

OP. You are trying to analyze a terrible system in a terrible movie that's riddle with plot holes.

 

Take a step back.

[Maeleena]

Well people complain cause they have reason to.... But I agree with everything else though. You're right, they cannot make a system robust enough. That does make the complaints about this kinda thing white noise, but the discussions (and theirs a difference) can still be worthwhile.

 

You didn't answer my question either... For the sake of discussion...

 

Imagine if we had no idea anything we are compelled to choose and click which affiliation would be assigned to it until after the choice is made?

 

To me that would make it way more interesting, but I know most everyone would only feel frustrated by it, and would wiki their way around it to make sure they milk the points they want further trivializing the whole concept of morality.

I would rather have it that way, where you are not told which choice is light/dark before you clicked, but again, back to my saying about complaining. People would complain to hell and back that they *didn't know* killing that guy or stealing that stuff would make them evil. It's ridiculous I know, but you know how people are.

[Buur]

Actually it amplifies it, because it shows if you actually make a choice of character type and stick to it, you get rewarded, but if you seesaw back and forth, you get nothing for being indecisive, which is how it should be, because in the real world, if you are indecisive you get very little out of anything you do.

 

Oh please, mindlessly doing something that is against how you want to play your character is beyond dumb. But it is the only way to get rewarded. It's not about being indecisive. You still have to make some decision. It's just you aren't at all rewarded for making the decision that makes sense for you. In a story based game that is beyond ridiculous.

[kalexkhan]

Actually it amplifies it, because it shows if you actually make a choice of character type and stick to it, you get rewarded, but if you seesaw back and forth, you get nothing for being indecisive, which is how it should be, because in the real world, if you are indecisive you get very little out of anything you do.

 

See that's the problem though, you call it indecisive cause your only thinking about the end goals.

 

I'm a smuggler, and sometimes theirs guys that annoy me or double crossed me and I do want to kill them, but I can't cause I gotta stick with light.

 

Other times, I genuinely don't want to save them cause I think they got mixed up with the wrong people or they're mostly innocent.

 

This doesn't make me indesicive, this makes me human.

 

But instead of being human, and vesting in the story I cannot help but think about endgame, and I go light side no matter what.

 

I would rather do what I want and leave the gear hooks out of it... But then we have to ask ourselves why any of it would matter at all in the end? Theirs no easy answer.

Edited January 25, 2012 by kalexkhan