Theat problems? Get some surge!

[ericdjobs]

As a PT tank, I have noticed that as the DPS gear gets better, threat becomes more and more of an issue.. I posted the reason for this on a couple of threads, but here it is.

 

I will tell you what the problem is. I saw this coming the minute I started to level my powertech (been 50 for awhile now)

 

 

here it is:

 

As a Powertech tank, I noticed that our only increase in threat is a static % modifier of our DPS.

 

As a tank, our gear choices consist solely of defensive stats. People who DPS gear for DPS stats. Defensive stats do NOT increase our dps, DPS stats do. Our threat is a static modifier of our DPS.. see where I'm going here?

 

As the DPS gears up, all of the item budget on their gear is spent on DPS stats, so their DPS (and threat) increases significantly. As a Tank gears up, his DPS stays pretty static save for Aim gains. This is the problem. So, as a tank, we are expected to do 60% of the DPS that a DPS class can do.... that was all fine at teh start of the game... but as the DPS continues to gear up, their DPS continues to increase.. while the tanks DPS stays static.

 

Now, the solution I am purposing is merely a band-aid.. it won't fix these problems forever because as teh DPS gear continues to get better/they generate even more threat, our DPS/threat is going to stay rather static (defensive stats provide no threat increase, but they should IMO)

 

SURGE!

 

As a Powertech tank, a good majority of our tanking abilities have high talent-induced crit rates. Surge scales VERY well. What I have found is that finding some pieces with def/surge, or implants/earpieces with shield/absorb/surge... or even using mastercraft pieces with Surge augments.. HELPS A TON. Like I said a lot of our abilities have high crit-rates, so we don't have to worry about gearing crit.

 

Changing some gear around, I lost about 2% to shield, 1.3% to dodge, and 3% absorb.. But I gained 25% to my crit damage, meaning my rocket punches and flame sweeps all hit A LOT harder now

 

AoE threat is no longer an issue because flame sweep crits for 1.2k

Rocket punch crits for 2300-2400, 2800 with adrenal/trinket popped.

 

It's working well for me, and I haven't noticed even a small decrease in survivability.

 

TL;DR: If you're having problems with threat as a PT/Shieldtech tank, try to throw some surge into your itemization, you should notice quite a difference.

[Libertine]

TL;DR: If you're having problems with threat as a PT/Shieldtech tank, try to throw some surge into your itemization, you should notice quite a difference.

 

thats fine as far as theorycrafting goes but imo if youre having threat issues as Shieldtech your simply doing something wrong(AoE or single target doesnt matter).

 

ive ran EV and EV Hard a number of times aswell as dozens of Hard Flashpoints and not once have had any issues with aggro.

 

substituting defenseive stats with surge is a solution where there is no problem.

[roccorossi]

thats fine as far as theorycrafting goes but imo if youre having threat issues as Shieldtech your simply doing something wrong(AoE or single target doesnt matter).

 

ive ran EV and EV Hard a number of times aswell as dozens of Hard Flashpoints and not once have had any issues with aggro.

 

substituting defenseive stats with surge is a solution where there is no problem.

 

What he said ^^^

[ZNICK]

I've not had troube keeping aggro as long as I hit them hard to start and use my 2 taunts when available.

 

However, this makes sense in another way. In SWTOR it makes sense for tanks to be concerned somewhat about their DPS because of the timer on HM's... we need all the DPS we can get, especially if your healer isn't attacking at all because of heat issues.

 

Z

[ericdjobs]

The people above me must have pretty bad DPS if they are unable to pull threat from you using cooldowns/trinkets.

 

A DPSer only has to do 150% of the DPS that the tank is doing to do this, because of the way threat works. If your DPS cannot pull 150% of your DPS, something is WRONG, because we have no DPS stats whatsoever. And this is exactly where the problem lies. We have no 'high threat' abilities, so our DPS basically IS our threat generation, with a % bonus. This was never a problem until DPS aquired Rakata gear.

 

 

If your DPS is unable to pull threat off you if they are trying (going all out), THEY are doing something wrong, or they are undergeared. (My guild is all in Rakata pretty much, for reference)

 

 

If you honestly have never lost threat as a PT tank, you need to find out what your DPS is doing wrong... be that not using adrenals on cooldown or cooldowns or something...because what it boils down to is that DPS only has to do 150% of the DPS that a PT tank is doing to generate more threat than them... and if you truly are wearing ALL tanking stats, this should be very easy for skilled DPS to do.

 

I'm sure that my rotation is solid, I use the PT spreadsheet and theorycraft EVERYTHING. I'm the epitome of a min/maxer. I doubt it's an error on my part, maybe our DPS is just spectacular.

 

This will only continue to get worse as DPS increases unless some other mechanic is added... that could be threat generation that is increased by defensive stats, or a number of other things.

 

I do NOT want LOLEASYMODE tank that WoW became! I actually prefer the vanilla WoW model of tab targetting etc... but with the way the system is designed right now (at least for powertechs, I have no idea how much actual threat is given for the 'high threat' abilities of the other tanks... powertechs 'threat' is their dps) it's ONLY going to get worse.

[Emissionforce]

It might be a poor design, it might even be an overlook - but none the less, for now each tank should have at least 2 buttons he can press immediately or within several seconds of when he notices he doesn't have aggro.

If someone dies because they had aggro and the tanks taunt wasn't on cool down then indeed it is the tanks fault. You can't go blaming dps for keeping aggro when theirs an enrage timer on almost everything, unless of course the dps has a threat drop in which case they should be aware of when they have or are having aggro for too long - this also apply's to dps/heals with any defensive cool downs.

 

TL; DR,

 

Tanks use taunts, Dps/Heals use defensive cd's... Don't like it, deal with it but by no means sacrifice damage reduction in favor of damage output when tanking. And if it helps... think of taunt as a force attack that does invisible brain damage to the target instead of a 'I fail at holding aggro, must hit bad button now'.

Edited January 25, 2012 by Emissionforce

[Valkenheineken]

The people above me must have pretty bad DPS if they are unable to pull threat from you using cooldowns/trinkets.

 

A DPSer only has to do 150% of the DPS that the tank is doing to do this, because of the way threat works. If your DPS cannot pull 150% of your DPS, something is WRONG, because we have no DPS stats whatsoever. And this is exactly where the problem lies. We have no 'high threat' abilities, so our DPS basically IS our threat generation, with a % bonus. This was never a problem until DPS aquired Rakata gear.

 

 

If your DPS is unable to pull threat off you if they are trying (going all out), THEY are doing something wrong, or they are undergeared. (My guild is all in Rakata pretty much, for reference)

 

 

If you honestly have never lost threat as a PT tank, you need to find out what your DPS is doing wrong... be that not using adrenals on cooldown or cooldowns or something...because what it boils down to is that DPS only has to do 150% of the DPS that a PT tank is doing to generate more threat than them... and if you truly are wearing ALL tanking stats, this should be very easy for skilled DPS to do.

 

I'm sure that my rotation is solid, I use the PT spreadsheet and theorycraft EVERYTHING. I'm the epitome of a min/maxer. I doubt it's an error on my part, maybe our DPS is just spectacular.

 

This will only continue to get worse as DPS increases unless some other mechanic is added... that could be threat generation that is increased by defensive stats, or a number of other things.

 

I do NOT want LOLEASYMODE tank that WoW became! I actually prefer the vanilla WoW model of tab targetting etc... but with the way the system is designed right now (at least for powertechs, I have no idea how much actual threat is given for the 'high threat' abilities of the other tanks... powertechs 'threat' is their dps) it's ONLY going to get worse.

 

Seconded.

Edited January 25, 2012 by Valkenheineken

[Libertine]

The people above me must have pretty bad DPS if they are unable to pull threat from you using cooldowns/trinkets.

 

A DPSer only has to do 150% of the DPS that the tank is doing to do this, because of the way threat works. If your DPS cannot pull 150% of your DPS, something is WRONG, because we have no DPS stats whatsoever. And this is exactly where the problem lies. We have no 'high threat' abilities, so our DPS basically IS our threat generation, with a % bonus. This was never a problem until DPS aquired Rakata gear.

 

 

If your DPS is unable to pull threat off you if they are trying (going all out), THEY are doing something wrong, or they are undergeared. (My guild is all in Rakata pretty much, for reference)

 

 

If you honestly have never lost threat as a PT tank, you need to find out what your DPS is doing wrong... be that not using adrenals on cooldown or cooldowns or something...because what it boils down to is that DPS only has to do 150% of the DPS that a PT tank is doing to generate more threat than them... and if you truly are wearing ALL tanking stats, this should be very easy for skilled DPS to do.

 

I'm sure that my rotation is solid, I use the PT spreadsheet and theorycraft EVERYTHING. I'm the epitome of a min/maxer. I doubt it's an error on my part, maybe our DPS is just spectacular.

 

This will only continue to get worse as DPS increases unless some other mechanic is added... that could be threat generation that is increased by defensive stats, or a number of other things.

 

I do NOT want LOLEASYMODE tank that WoW became! I actually prefer the vanilla WoW model of tab targetting etc... but with the way the system is designed right now (at least for powertechs, I have no idea how much actual threat is given for the 'high threat' abilities of the other tanks... powertechs 'threat' is their dps) it's ONLY going to get worse.

 

basically what your saying is that because YOU have problems with threat EVERYONE elses DPS must suck when they dont have aggro problems ... yeah, thats solid reasoning ...

if we follow that logic shieldtech tanking would be flawed by design which it isnt...

 

ill say it again, if youre a shieldtech, have ion gas and guard on and you have aggro problems the reason isnt the class or some mechanic but its you not doing your job properly.

[ericdjobs]

basically what your saying is that because YOU have problems with threat EVERYONE elses DPS must suck when they dont have aggro problems ... yeah, thats solid reasoning ...

if we follow that logic shieldtech tanking would be flawed by design which it isnt...

 

ill say it again, if youre a shieldtech, have ion gas and guard on and you have aggro problems the reason isnt the class or some mechanic but its you not doing your job properly.

 

Have you even tanked for DPS in Rakata gear? I seriously SERIOUSLY doubt this. Every single powertech who plays at a high level (Nightmare modes) that i've talked to says the same thing. Eventually, you will HAVE to gear surge to maintain threat.

 

Unless you can explain to me how a PT is able to pull 50%-75% of the DPS of a DPS class in full rakata, then it's simply impossible for it NOT to happen.

 

If you read my first post, you'll see why. With threat being a static modifier of our DPS, as gear progresses, DPS classes will eventually ALWAYS generate more threat than us. If things stay the same.

 

Tanks who gear purely defensive stats, that is. It's because even it your shield rating, defense rating, and absorb rating all DOUBLE... your threat generation stays the same. If a DPS's crit rating, surge rating, and power all DOUBLE, they are doing WAY WAY WAY more threat.

 

So, please, explain to me how this isn't a problem? Explain to me how a powertech is supposed to maintain threat in this scenario? There is no magic rotation that increases your DPS by 50-75%. There's only so much you can do.

 

I'm not saying EVERYONE has threat problems. What I'm saying is once DPS gear progresses to a certain level, it becomes impossible to generate more threat than them (if they are going all out, which they should be). This is a CERTAINTY for a tank gearing all defensive stats. The only way to 'tank' in this scenario is to use your emergency cooldowns, taunts, to regain threat... taunt gives you 110% of the threat of the highest person.. so basically you have to rotate your emergency taunts... this is not how it should be. Taunts should be used for emergencies, not consistently in every fight because the DPS has to go full throttle because of enrage timers.

 

I'll say it again, if you're a PT tank..gearing all defensive stats, tanking for people in Rakata gear using stims/adrenals on Cooldown, you're NOT going to hold threat without taunts. At least not for any significant amount of time. Popping CDs at the start helps, but only delays the inevitable.

 

It's a DESIGN FLAW that needs to be fixed. Either Defense/Shied/Absorb need some kind of threat component (increases the amount of threat done by abilities) to allow threat to scale with the DPS, or give Powertech's some 'High Threat' abilities that provide a threat number that isn't reliant on our DPS.

 

If you really think PT threat is going to scale well (it already doesn't for DPS in rakata gear) then you are not really mathematically inclined. It's very obvious what the problem is, and why it is a problem. If you can't see this, I'm sorry, but it's a design flaw. They didn't think ahead when planning it out.

Edited January 26, 2012 by ericdjobs