Force Speed = Gap Closer = Warrior Skill

[OwnedHeh]

The sheer fact that Inquisitors - not Warriors - have Force Speed is fundamentally retarded. For those who are unfamiliar with Force Sprint, it gives a 150% movement speed bonus for 2 seconds. That's nearly 1.5x faster than a level 50 speeder. As if that's not enough, it also maintains stealth. Warriors must be within 4m for 75% of their attacks. At this point, all they have are 2 gap closers - Force Charge and Obliterate. And Force Charge is the ONLY (other than Disable Droid - which is utterly useless in PvP) attack that Warriors have that is further than 10m. Inquisitors have half (well over half if Sorcerer is the Adv. Class) of their abilities at 30m... What the hell do they need gap closing for? The skill for them is just using as an "oh ****" button. "Are you getting low on HP? I think not. Sprint away." And the combo of an Assassin's stealth and Force Sprint is even more mind-blowingly retarded.

 

The ability that Marauders are given in "replacement" of Force Speed is Force Camouflage. It gives 4 seconds of instant stealth and 30% bonus movement speed. (Direct damage ends this effect) Cool story, bro... When you are literally 2m away from your target, your 4 seconds of Force Camo don't get you anywhere far enough away from your target to be considered an "escape ability." But at the same token, the bonus move speed isn't near enough to get you within range to Force Charge someone starting at 50m away. Now let's not forget that Juggernauts don't even get Force Camo. They literally have no ability in this category. Their replacement is Force Push (pushes back target several meters and knocks them down for 2 seconds; not bad, but why does a tank need to push an enemy away? It would make a hell of a lot more sense to have an ability that is mainly used to initiate with the POSSIBILITY of being an escape mechanism). And I'm not even gonna mention the completely laughable difference between Force Camo and Force Sprint when carrying the ball in Hutt Ball...

 

The main reason that Warriors need to either be given Force Speed, or an ability that does pretty much the same effect is because EVERY other class has knockback AND stun/knockdown/slow abilities. On that note, Unleash (Warriors' CC removal skill) is also the most inferior of all of the CC removal skills among any class. Being on a cooldown of 2:00 when most CC effects are on cooldowns of less than 30 seconds is just silly. (Yes, I know that Force Camo can become a CC removal skill as well if speced into the Carnage tree, but all other classes have their basic CC removal on a 1:30 second or 1 minute cooldown). But that's for a different thread...

 

When knocked back either by Inquisitor, Bounty Hunter, or Imperial Agent, you pretty much know you're either gonna be either slowed or stunned along with it. So you'll either have to wait til your 15 second Force Charge is back up, or try your best to get within 10 meters to Obliterate and Force Crush your target. If we had just one more ability that could aid us with closing gaps, there wouldn't be such an imbalance. I'm not asking for another target-blink ability. But an ability that helps us get closer to use our much more inferior target-blink (Obliterate; must be within 10m to use, doesn't root target, costs 3 Rage instead of gaining Rage for using it). I also think that Obliterate should have its range extended a bit - maybe to 15m or 20m. But I could definitely live with just gaining an ability like Force Speed.

 

If you think about it, it can be a complete replacement for Force Camo. Realistically, what good is stealth for a Warrior class? Warriors get no bonus for attacking from stealth, and all of their attacks are more sustained damage than burst (with the exception of Smash when charged in the Rage tree - however it takes at least 4 seconds to fully charge the combo, which is more than enough time to react to the attacker), so surprising someone from behind isn't that big of a threat anyway.

 

My opinion on how these should be implemented, would be a complete trade between classes. Both Marauders and Juggernauts should have Force Speed. It just makes sense. Sorcerers are exponentially better from afar than in close quarters, so it would make sense to give Sorcerers the Force Push ability. Finally, Assassins could be given the Force Camo ability - AND normal instant-stealthing should be removed. This could be the alternative. It at least takes a little more brain power than just clicking your regular stealth ability during combat. It would mimic how the Operative's stealth mechanic works.

 

Notice how I am not trying to steal the Assassin's Force Pull. Force Pull is infinitely better than Force Charge, because you can pull one enemy into your team instead of you being the one soloing into their team. In PvE it works the same way. You can grab one enemy toward you instead of risking pulling other mobs that are near the enemy you're pulling. While I think it would be cool personally to use Force Pull on a Warrior, there's just no reasoning behind taking Force Pull as well. If I were really just QQing like many of the "TL;DR" people will say, I would be wanting to take away Force Pull too. But that would imbalance the game toward Warriors. I just see a mechanic that is backward and am voicing my concern with it.

 

Being a Warrior, you have to take the risk of jumping into a fight and be up close and personally with multiple enemies. However, in the current state of the game, that risk is more-often-than-not much higher than the reward.

[Smekbar]

It is no a gap closer. Force Speed is to help us escape from dangers.

For example melee enemies punishing us in close combat.

 

You have a gap closer and its called force charge, you can even spec

into more gap closers as a warrior.

 

 

Working as intended

Edited January 25, 2012 by Smekbar

[Vibeth]

You have a CC and knockback skills for that.

 

Force speed should be Warrior/Knight ability.

[Vaters]

no it shouldnt,

while stealthed we lose some speed, force speed gives us a 2 sec compensation for that. And also a good escape method, which can be easily countered by any class who know their stuff.

[Nocorras]

Force speed is used as an escape. If you use it as a gap closer you leave yourself very vulnerable.

[Vaters]

Force speed is used as an escape. If you use it as a gap closer you leave yourself very vulnerable.

 

if force cloak is on cd, else you still have a powerfull escape.

[Batslav]

warriors can jump around ur fine also we are the one who truly masters the force

[Parthis]

With respect the vast majority of facts in your post are wrong.

 

Assassins do not have 30m on half of their abilities. They have 10m on some of their abilities, but to be effective is to be in melee range, just like you.

 

Secondly stop lumping all Juggs as tanks; they're not. They have force push as a way of dealing with deadzone dancers and to offer utility on environment notable maps, such as huttball. Force push also resets the cooldown on your charge; use it to push people dancing the 4m-10m range and charge them. Also of note; Camo clearly isn't meant as an escape ability, it's intended to give you an edge in combat and the opportunity to take a little shelter and reopen the fight on your terms. It's also not intended to give you a way of engaging an enemy at 50m, etc etc etc.

 

Assassins, like Warriors, are a melee class. We need to be in melee to be effective, but not only that some of our most important abilities have specific positioning needs; force speed is useful there too.

 

It makes absolutely no sense to switch these skillsets; Sorcs already have more than enough tools to keep you at range, why give them another one? Assassins already have stealth options, more would be overpowered. etc etc.

 

Finally not stealing Force Pull is very noble of you, but again you've completely overlooked who has it and why; it's deep in the tanking tree. Anyone who takes that is giving up damage for utility and control and embracing that role. Deception Assassins don't run around with it, nor do madness Assassins. Tank tree, leave it be.

 

So really your post is;

I'm a warrior and I struggle to get into and stay in melee range.

 

He's the rub; i'm an Assassin and have the same issues. As it stands ranged are very strong in this game. There are lots of snares, knock backs and stuns and your solution on this is to home in on a single ability one melee class has that you'd quite like, and ask it to be switched with a stealth ability that the Assassin simply doesn't need, leaving this particular melee class without a single gap closer unless they spec deep into the tanking tree? No.

 

The solution to this problem isn't to bastardise the melee classes.

 

Oh, and you're not the only person/class to complain about Sorcs in Huttball (Bubble->Spring->GG), but that's a different issue entirely.

[Parthis]

You have a CC and knockback skills for that.

 

Force speed should be Warrior/Knight ability.

 

Warriors; the new Mages.

[AetherMcLoud]

Charge cooldown - 15 seconds

Obliterate cooldown - 15 seconds

 

Force Speed cooldown - 30 seconds

Force Pull cooldown - 45 seconds

 

Also the only 2 attacks that assassins have that are 30 meters are on a 1 minute cooldown (whirlwind) or 2 minute (Force Lightning with the Cooldown Buff).

 

The only thing I *could* understand is trying to get Force Speed as an Assassin only ability, so Sorcerers wouldn't have it on top of everything else they have. Though they probably also need it as an escape tool (dunno, never played one).

[InevitableDoom]

With respect the vast majority of facts in your post are wrong.

 

Assassins do not have 30m on half of their abilities. They have 10m on some of their abilities, but to be effective is to be in melee range, just like you.

 

Secondly stop lumping all Juggs as tanks; they're not. They have force push as a way of dealing with deadzone dancers and to offer utility on environment notable maps, such as huttball. Force push also resets the cooldown on your charge; use it to push people dancing the 4m-10m range and charge them. Also of note; Camo clearly isn't meant as an escape ability, it's intended to give you an edge in combat and the opportunity to take a little shelter and reopen the fight on your terms. It's also not intended to give you a way of engaging an enemy at 50m, etc etc etc.

 

Assassins, like Warriors, are a melee class. We need to be in melee to be effective, but not only that some of our most important abilities have specific positioning needs; force speed is useful there too.

 

It makes absolutely no sense to switch these skillsets; Sorcs already have more than enough tools to keep you at range, why give them another one? Assassins already have stealth options, more would be overpowered. etc etc.

 

Finally not stealing Force Pull is very noble of you, but again you've completely overlooked who has it and why; it's deep in the tanking tree. Anyone who takes that is giving up damage for utility and control and embracing that role. Deception Assassins don't run around with it, nor do madness Assassins. Tank tree, leave it be.

 

So really your post is;

I'm a warrior and I struggle to get into and stay in melee range.

 

He's the rub; i'm an Assassin and have the same issues. As it stands ranged are very strong in this game. There are lots of snares, knock backs and stuns and your solution on this is to home in on a single ability one melee class has that you'd quite like, and ask it to be switched with a stealth ability that the Assassin simply doesn't need, leaving this particular melee class without a single gap closer unless they spec deep into the tanking tree? No.

 

The solution to this problem isn't to bastardise the melee classes.

 

Oh, and you're not the only person/class to complain about Sorcs in Huttball (Bubble->Spring->GG), but that's a different issue entirely.

 

No one else needs to reply to the thread. Because this^

[Nohkron]

Force Speed is totally fine as it is, Inquisitors can only move horizontally with it, while you can Leap onto anything, anywhere in your reach, even with the ball.

 

Besides Warriors and Sentintels usually destroy me easily 1v1, when we both have our CDs.

 

Also, that cloaking effect you speak of that is breaking on dmg, unless you are talking about a different abiiity, I've had loads of Warriors just vanishing mid-combat and not having it break from AoE, to then just repop in the middle of us.

 

Assassin's Force Cloak on the other hand breaks on any damage done to us, unless we combine it with another heavy CD Force Shroud, which is more useful mid-combat usually and not when you want to escape.

 

I can't understand Warriors whining, they totally destroy stuff in PvP.

[AetherMcLoud]

Also I forgot, Juggernauts are the only class that has a friendly charge. So with that, and specced for the 11point Obliterate charge, they have 3 different charges all on short cooldowns.

[Mazari]

Sorry but op is full of fail. Won't even bother saying why others already said a lot.

[Areoss]

Intercede. Nuff said.

[fungihoujo]

I'll gladly trade my force speed with it's long CD for your three leap abilities. Please, make BW see that this is a valued trade, because I would love that a great deal.

[Vesperr]

OP you have to do more research than "I want force speed on my war".

 

Force charge:

Roots target.

Isnt affected by snares.

Can be used to get back to wherever you were pushed off.

Is not an escape tool in most cases.

15 sec CD, can be reduced to 12 in annihilation.

Gives complete CC immunity if specced vengeance.

 

Force camo:

Breaks CC if carnage and 4 seconds with 30% speed boost is enough to LoS the target. It also helps to fight enemy cooldowns.

Makes immune to damage if annihilation, allows to ignore enemy cooldowns (or wait for your cooldowns to be over) and let healers in your party to heal you.

45 sec CD.

 

So basicly its a gap closer/escape tool/defensive ability that can be improved to give some major advantage.

 

 

 

Do note that warriors specced into rage get 10m gap closer (and thats nice) that increases their speed by 40% for 5 sec (not a lot but still a nice bonus, and it is a gap closer).

Marauders can use throw saber to root their enemies if carnage.

As stated by other users, force push (60 sec CD) resets force charge cooldown.

Warriors have 12 sec single target/9 sec aoe 50% slow with no CD.

Also juggers get intercede, effectivly a 2nd charge on 30 CD if used in team fights.

Also warriors get AoE mezz that dramatically increase their survivability if applied correctly, sins only get AoE knockback which is while useful, not an effective escape tool as it lacks snare/root and is by no means a gap closer.

 

 

Force speed:

Escape tool.

Gives 150% speed (so the total will be 250% and its nowhere near x1.5 of 210% L50 speeder, so OP was either triing to confuse everyone or he sucks at math).

Breaks roots/snares only if darkness.

User is still affected by slow (unless darkness) so the total speed will be lower.

Roots and stuns completely negate this ability if applied correctly.

30 sec CD (can be reduced to 20 by any spec but belongs to T2 of darkness).

It doesnt really help you to get to the enemy who pushed you off the ledge (it does but you wont reach him anyway).

 

 

Do note that asssassins being the squishiest class (unless darkness - tank spec) and being stealth class need a tool to escape.

Assassins also lack warriors CDs (especially awesome CDs of marauder and its medium armor), the only notable CD is the one that removes debuffs and gives immune to force/tech attacks for 3 seconds (5 if darkness).

Assassins have 50% 6 sec snare on 12 sec CD meaning that they cant always stay close to target without use of other abilities. Deception can change it to 12 sec snare, 6 sec CD and madness has 2 sec root. Thus darkness sin needs pull (45sec CD) to be effective.

Assassins 10m abilities arent awesome enough to kill enemies without melee and have cooldowns, actually they suck if you dont go melee. Assassins are melee classes after all.

 

 

 

So to sum it up, everything looks pretty balanced to me (when it comes to gap closers):

Maras get awesome CDs and 1-2 gap closers, also root.

Juggers get 1 gap closer, 2 in team fights, good armor in any spec.

Tankasins get 2-3 gap closers (more often than not they are in combat due to guard) not so awesome armor and lack damage.

DD sins get 2 gap closers, worst armor, poor damage compared to mara (not sure about juggers, some of those can hit hard too) and worst CDs.

 

 

Now, OP, let assassins steal some damage/burst from you so they can take down good maras.

Edited January 25, 2012 by Vesperr

[Hyfy]

Ummmmmm no, just no OP.