Vashiel Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 (edited) I'll say straight up that I, as a level 50 Operative, believe we were hitting a bit too hard. I can understand where everyone else is coming from in regards to that aspect. That being said, I don't know if anyone realizes that other than the heavy burst an Operative/Scoundrel provide, we bring nothing to the table. We have very poor sustained DPS, very little CC, and our survivability outside of stealth is abysmal. Those facts being stated, what exaclty do you all think we're going to be capable of Post 1.1.1? We are the squishiest class in the game and if we can't do enough damage in our initial stun/burst, chances are we're going to go down quick. As for Jarring Strike, this patch is going to make the entire talent completely useless. Who would spend 2 points for a 1.5s stun that completely fills the resolve bar? The worst part about all of this though is the Acid Blade nerf. We all know that it's hard enough as it is to get in to a raid as a melee DPS, but Operatives/Scoundrels weren't even top of the line to begin with. Now with this HEAVY DPS nerf to our sustained damage, what exactly will we provide to any group setting? These are honest questions I wish reasonable people would consider before claiming we're all FotMers, scrubs, or who knows what else. I picked this class the day the game went live because it seemed the most fun. People aren't over-reacting when they observe that this nerf may in fact destroy Concealement in its entirety and yet the majority of people on these forums get some sick amusement out of watching the spec die, as if it's some form of personal vendetta. And yet during this entire time, no one looks at the Sorcerers/Sages with their insane bubbles AND damage? No one looks at Mercenaries/Troopers unleashing insane amounts of damage? I can't for the life of me figure out why the least played class in the game got singled out like this. TL;DR - Yes, the initial burst may have been a bit too high and could warrant a slight nerf, but the Acid Blade nerf goes too far, ruining any and all chances of maintaining our pathetic excuse for sustained damage. If our sustained damage isn't increased any, you really will be looking at a dead spec, a fact I believe many of you really don't care and may in fact be happy to see. My opinion on how the nerf should have gone: Hidden Strikes damage decreased by 15% Jarring Strike reduced to 1.5 or 2s, fills resolve bar by half Acid Blade's armor pen reduced from 50% to 40% Shiv, Backstab, and Lacerate all have their damage increased by 5 or 10% This way we don't come out hitting like a truck but yet still have enough sustained damage to stand our ground once you come out of your stun. Edited January 25, 2012 by Vashiel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evuke Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 (edited) Completely agree with all you said, but it's too late now. I rolled an operative initially because they were the LEAST played class, i thought i was rolling the farthest from the fotm class, the least likely to be nerfed. I found myself doing fairly appalling sustained damage in pve, i felt like a leach in flashpoints due to how terrible the sustained dps of this class is. But in pvp i was able to usually win ONE VS ONE fights if i snuck around in stealth and carefully picked off a single target, after getting maneuvering myself directly behind them. But now that's being removed......so there really is nothing left, just a class with **** all burst damage, **** all sustained damge and **** all survivability. I should have known this would happen because sorc's are 60% of the playerbase (hence 60% of the whiners on these forums) and they targeted us because we were their counter-class.....lesson learned for future mmo''s never roll the counter-class to the most played class. All we can do now is try and get sorc's nerfed for revenge, but I've already re-rolled as a sage anyway because they'll probably never get nerfed exactly because they're 60% of the playerbase, so if you can't beat them join them, best damage, best heals, best mitigation, best cc, you really can't go wrong. Edited January 25, 2012 by Evuke Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vashiel Posted January 25, 2012 Author Share Posted January 25, 2012 (edited) Completely agree with all you said, but it's too late now. Sorc's are 60% of the playerbase (hence 60% of the whiners on these forums) and they targeted us because we were their counter-class. All we can do now is try and get sorc's nerfed for revenge, but I've already re-rolled as a sage anyway because they'll probably never get nerfed exactly because they're 60% of the playerbase, so if you can't beat them join them, best damage, best heals, best mitigation, best cc, you really can't go wrong. Sad that it came to this. What sickens me are the people coming to the Operative forums and literally gloating that we've been nerfed. It's really as if this was some kind of personal foul we've made against them. They really don't care if the spec is broken, as they'll only consider a win in their books. I promise guys, we didn't touch you in the no-no squares! Wish there were Sorc/Sages who could speak with sense. If I'm willing to agree we needed a slight nerf, you should be either willing to agree with me or that you also need a slight nerf. We'll never see either of those two happening though. Edited January 25, 2012 by Vashiel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piriste Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 Well operatives are pretty OP in the lower bracket, on 50 i havent had any problems with them. And i think this in part fueled the walls of whine for a nerf. But still, no-one should deny they needed a nerf, the nerf bat just was a few sizes too big. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teslamatic Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 Not disagreeing, just my 2c. I find the design of the class bizzare. It´s a scoundrel, right? An underhand operative? Isn´t it supposed to have many tools, to dance around its chosen prey, interrupting it, inhibiting it, eluding it, until, finally, prevailing? Why, then, was it designed around a massive opener? Nuke or die? Or even nuke AND die? What was the idea behind it, a human ICBM? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ttoon Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 I agree, I have even started to level a BH because as soon as the patch is released I wont be going on my Op. I have a lvl 50 Op and I think they are overpowered to an extent, earlier today I was crit for 6.6k by another Op, and yea it was frustrating. My solution would be to have the nerfs but increase the survivability, perhaps increase the heal from stimulant and/or increase the damage absorbed by shield probe. I think Ops have been treated unfairly, we have to be in stealth AND behind the player, otherwise we are pretty useless... Imo the behind the player is a pointless requirement and causes more head aches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vashiel Posted January 25, 2012 Author Share Posted January 25, 2012 Well operatives are pretty OP in the lower bracket, on 50 i havent had any problems with them. And i think this in part fueled the walls of whine for a nerf. But still, no-one should deny they needed a nerf, the nerf bat just was a few sizes too big. That's the thing though. Real Ops know we needed a slight nerf. What BW decided to do was beyond that. And yes, all of the whining is coming from the <50 bracket. Real PvPers and 50's know that everything else is just hyperbole. Unfortunately, the majority of the game is still <50, so what do they think they see? Clearly Op nerfs, obviously! They don't factor in that once you hit 50 and get PvP gear with tons of health and expertise that these scenarios stop happening. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OsirisZoran Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 Sad that it came to this. What sickens me are the people coming to the Operative forums and literally gloating that we've been nerfed. It's really as if this was some kind of personal foul we've made against them. They really don't care if the spec is broken, as they'll only consider a win in their books. I promise guys, we didn't touch you in the no-no squares! Wish there were Sorc/Sages who could speak with sense. If I'm willing to agree we needed a slight nerf, you should be either willing to agree with me or that you also need a slight nerf. We'll never see either of those two happening though. maybe it was due to ops having crits that are 2-3x higher than any other class and killing people before they stood up from the knockdown? Your dmg will still be good and still get crits over 5k. whats the problem? no more 7-8k crits? too bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Serazil Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 I would've been fine with this nerf if an equivalent buff was given to sustained damage. BW needs to make energy regen a fixed rate of 10 same as Shadow/Assassin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sathid Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 Well operatives are pretty OP in the lower bracket, on 50 i havent had any problems with them. And i think this in part fueled the walls of whine for a nerf. But still, no-one should deny they needed a nerf, the nerf bat just was a few sizes too big. Yes reducing the initial hit and tweaking the stun on the opener alone would of been fine,it remains to be seen how things will turn out because we havent seen it ofcourse,but the looks of it at first glance look alittle over kill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vashiel Posted January 25, 2012 Author Share Posted January 25, 2012 maybe it was due to ops having crits that are 2-3x higher than any other class and killing people before they stood up from the knockdown? Your dmg will still be good and still get crits over 5k. whats the problem? no more 7-8k crits? too bad. Example #1 of a player who doesn't know what he's talking about. There are recorded videos of fully geared Operatives critting for nothing over 5.5k. Where are these 7-8k+ crits that everyone is talking about? Please, show me proof they exist, because I just don't see it. That 5k crit you're claiming we'll still have is off of ONE ability that requires coming from stealth for. After that amazing crit, we won't hit you for any high numbers ever again. So no, it's not that simple. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evuke Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 maybe it was due to ops having crits that are 2-3x higher than any other class and killing people before they stood up from the knockdown? Your dmg will still be good and still get crits over 5k. whats the problem? no more 7-8k crits? too bad. Says the sorc. Don't worry, you're next. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piriste Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 Where are these 7-8k+ crits that everyone is talking about? Please, show me proof they exist, because I just don't see it. Those do exist, i've seen them myself. But the thing is, that's prior to 1.1 when consumable stacking wasnt nerfed. Now? I havent seen even a 6k crit. i guess it's possible with adrenal / trinket though. The whines started because people abused consumables, and they wont stop until the class is brought down to ground. Sad but true. You guys just have to reroll. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vashiel Posted January 25, 2012 Author Share Posted January 25, 2012 Those do exist, i've seen them myself. But the thing is, that's prior to 1.1 when consumable stacking wasnt nerfed. Now? I havent seen even a 6k crit. i guess it's possible with adrenal / trinket though. The whines started because people abused consumables, and they wont stop until the class is brought down to ground. Sad but true. You guys just have to reroll. That's the thing, I'm talking post-1.1. It's impossible to crit that high now, yet people are stating all of their "facts" as if this was pre-1.1. The class is NOT capable of those numbers anymore. Under very rare circumstances can we pull off anything higher than 5.5k, and it has to be very lucky as well. Please people, understand that these numbers just don't happen now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mackuss Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 The problem is, OP, that this WoW clone has come full circle with the knee-jerk nerfs and no buffing in a class where it needs complimenting. What they should have done was buff sustained damage AS WELL AS the burst nerf. Then again, the class isn't designed intelligently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vashiel Posted January 25, 2012 Author Share Posted January 25, 2012 The problem is, OP, that this WoW clone has come full circle with the knee-jerk nerfs and no buffing in a class where it needs complimenting. What they should have done was buff sustained damage AS WELL AS the burst nerf. Then again, the class isn't designed intelligently. Did you not see though that I said the burst needed a nerf but should have been complimented with a buff to our sustained? I know we needed a slight nerf to our burst damage, but BW also took with it any hope of what we called our sustained DPS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xinika Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 I'll say straight up that I, as a level 50 Operative, believe we were hitting a bit too hard. I can understand where everyone else is coming from in regards to that aspect. That being said, I don't know if anyone realizes that other than the heavy burst an Operative/Scoundrel provide, we bring nothing to the table. We have very poor sustained DPS, very little CC, and our survivability outside of stealth is abysmal. Those facts being stated, what exaclty do you all think we're going to be capable of Post 1.1.1? We are the squishiest class in the game and if we can't do enough damage in our initial stun/burst, chances are we're going to go down quick. As for Jarring Strike, this patch is going to make the entire talent completely useless. Who would spend 2 points for a 1.5s stun that completely fills the resolve bar? The worst part about all of this though is the Acid Blade nerf. We all know that it's hard enough as it is to get in to a raid as a melee DPS, but Operatives/Scoundrels weren't even top of the line to begin with. Now with this HEAVY DPS nerf to our sustained damage, what exactly will we provide to any group setting? These are honest questions I wish reasonable people would consider before claiming we're all FotMers, scrubs, or who knows what else. I picked this class the day the game went live because it seemed the most fun. People aren't over-reacting when they observe that this nerf may in fact destroy Concealement in its entirety and yet the majority of people on these forums get some sick amusement out of watching the spec die, as if it's some form of personal vendetta. And yet during this entire time, no one looks at the Sorcerers/Sages with their insane bubbles AND damage? No one looks at Mercenaries/Troopers unleashing insane amounts of damage? I can't for the life of me figure out why the least played class in the game got singled out like this. TL;DR - Yes, the initial burst may have been a bit too high and could warrant a slight nerf, but the Acid Blade nerf goes too far, ruining any and all chances of maintaining our pathetic excuse for sustained damage. If our sustained damage isn't increased any, you really will be looking at a dead spec, a fact I believe many of you really don't care and may in fact be happy to see. My opinion on how the nerf should have gone: Hidden Strikes damage decreased by 15% Jarring Strike reduced to 1.5 or 2s, fills resolve bar by half Acid Blade's armor pen reduced from 50% to 40% Shiv, Backstab, and Lacerate all have their damage increased by 5 or 10% This way we don't come out hitting like a truck but yet still have enough sustained damage to stand our ground once you come out of your stun. No. Enjoy the balance though. See what I did there? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blarpped Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 Example #1 of a player who doesn't know what he's talking about. There are recorded videos of fully geared Operatives critting for nothing over 5.5k. Where are these 7-8k+ crits that everyone is talking about? Please, show me proof they exist, because I just don't see it. That 5k crit you're claiming we'll still have is off of ONE ability that requires coming from stealth for. After that amazing crit, we won't hit you for any high numbers ever again. So no, it's not that simple. There is so much whining about this it's ridiculous. "We're completely impotent without our huge burst!" That is utter nonsense. You have, in no particular order: One on-demand stun One proc stun An immobilize tied to a snare AOE 8 second CC Evasion Absorbs A FREE high-damage positional attack Two heals A 100% uptime small HOT Sap Vanish AOE group Vanish in-combat res DOT removal You have all this, and complain that you can't spend five globals and kill someone anymore. It's utterly mind boggling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vashiel Posted January 25, 2012 Author Share Posted January 25, 2012 No. Enjoy the balance though. See what I did there? Ya, I see that you're a player who knows nothing about balance. If you can justify how this is balance to me, I'll consent. Prove to me we need a nerf, post patch 1.1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OsirisZoran Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 Example #1 of a player who doesn't know what he's talking about. There are recorded videos of fully geared Operatives critting for nothing over 5.5k. Where are these 7-8k+ crits that everyone is talking about? Please, show me proof they exist, because I just don't see it. That 5k crit you're claiming we'll still have is off of ONE ability that requires coming from stealth for. After that amazing crit, we won't hit you for any high numbers ever again. So no, it's not that simple. yes sorry they get the 5k crit and then crit 3 more times with acid blade, backstab, lacerate for 3k-4k on each of those. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vashiel Posted January 25, 2012 Author Share Posted January 25, 2012 There is so much whining about this it's ridiculous. "We're completely impotent without our huge burst!" That is utter nonsense. You have, in no particular order: One on-demand stun One proc stun An immobilize tied to a snare AOE 8 second CC Evasion Absorbs A FREE high-damage positional attack Two heals A 100% uptime small HOT Sap Vanish AOE group Vanish in-combat res DOT removal You have all this, and complain that you can't spend five globals and kill someone anymore. It's utterly mind boggling. Hidden Strike completely fills the resolve bar. We can't use Flash Bang or Debilitate after we hit you. I think that takes out a little of your arguement, wouldn't you agree? Sevor Tendon has a 10m range. If you're outside of it, we can't get to you to use it. So while it's helpful, it's very limited. Evasion, while helpful, is only 4seconds. It's basically an "Oh s***" ability that usually results in your death afterwards. An Operative healing in combat (weak heals, I might add) is not doing any damage to you and is taking damage. Why are you complaining? Sap completely fills the resolve bar. If we sap you, we can't stun you. There is no AoE Group Vanish. You have to be out of combat for Infiltrate to work. Really? If you're gonna make up facts, please, go away. Concealement operatives can't use an in-combat rez. Really bud, I think you're making up some imaginary class that can do all that, because I just don't see it. Nice try though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OsirisZoran Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 There is so much whining about this it's ridiculous. "We're completely impotent without our huge burst!" That is utter nonsense. You have, in no particular order: One on-demand stun One proc stun An immobilize tied to a snare AOE 8 second CC Evasion Absorbs A FREE high-damage positional attack Two heals A 100% uptime small HOT Sap Vanish AOE group Vanish in-combat res DOT removal You have all this, and complain that you can't spend five globals and kill someone anymore. It's utterly mind boggling. You see bro that was there thing! Thats what made them unique from all the other classes! they could kill you in 5 seconds. Totally intended! Guess they'll have to work for their kills like every other class now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OsirisZoran Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 your targets resolve will have gone down by the time you're ready to aoe mez. But you know, That aoe mez was very useful in killing one person in a group really fast, Aoe mezzing the group and escaping. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vashiel Posted January 25, 2012 Author Share Posted January 25, 2012 your targets resolve will have gone down by the time you're ready to aoe mez. But you know, That aoe mez was very useful in killing one person in a group really fast, Aoe mezzing the group and escaping. *** is an "Aoe mez"? Do you know anything at all or are you just pulling crap out of your butt? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evuke Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 (edited) One on-demand stun - our only stun that everyone just trinkets out of One proc stun - oooooh a 1.5 second stun the whole duration of the global cooldown, that's really worth spending 27 points in a skill tree to get! As if anyone will spend the points to get this. An immobilize tied to a snare - to slow people down so we can do our mediocre sustained damage to them for a few seconds? AOE 8 second CC - that is useless because it breaks on damage Evasion - doesn't work in pvp at all because of the damage types Absorbs - pathetic compared with the sorc bubble A FREE high-damage positional attack - huh? Two heals - yay a 3 second cast heal for 1200 hp when you're being hit by sorcs insta-casts for 2k+ dmg - very useful....not A 100% uptime small HOT - if we go healing spec we get a pathetic small hot, great! Sap - that can only be used in stealth against targets not in combat, reallly really useful, not Vanish - ok this is our 1 decent ability i grant you this 1 AOE group Vanish - wrong it's aoe group stealth not vanish, and it's pretty much usless because it doesn't work on group members in combat and the range of it is tiny and your group never stays close enough. in-combat res - have you ever seen anyone ever use this in a warzone? you can click an insta spawn why bother with a massive cast rez that brings you back with no hp? DOT removal - lol, because dots do so much damage Edited January 25, 2012 by Evuke Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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