Healing in PvP

[TankRamp]

I think the OP is upset that his pocket healer can't make him invincible.

 

I am the pocket healer. Or I would be if healing was any better. But as it stands I'm boom spec killing people because it's significantly more effective.

[Waagabond]

But you're missing my point. Healing is not a problem in PvP. It's currently underwhelming and ineffective. As a sage I'm better off going boom spec and bursting players down than staying seer and healing a couple other dps. Damage can burn through any healing that I can do.

 

And this is why especially on Republic we are loosing alot.

Our healers believe they are inefective.

 

We dont want a game where healing is very powerful, you need to play smart.

 

At the moment, a tank getting healed, in good gear, requires 4 people to kill.

And you want an increase in that?

 

Single healers at the moment can pull out numbers, WITH trauma, that is double the amount of the 2 most top dps of opposing team, or close to it.

 

If anything, healing should be reduced, not increased.

To say it is inefective reaks of inexperience.

 

If you are healing a scoundrel scrapper that is fighting 3 people and not able to keep him alive, then I understand you, but you should not.

 

As for dps. In current state even with a healer behind you, you are forced to move and get out of the heat at times. Thats how it should be.

Having a pocket healer should not make you invulnerable, and as a healer, you do not own the right to make your team impossible to beat, which honestly is close to the situation at the moment.

I feel healing is pretty spot on, again, if anything, it should be lowered, not increased.

 

I just have to say again, to say that healing is inefective is one of the largest troll arguments I heard for a while.

 

And as for shutting down a healer?

Try do that when he have guard on him and as soon as you come close you are jumped by 1 or 2 others, ccd, stunned, rooted...and unless you yourself have a healer backup you are dead as disco before you even lay down 10% damage on said healer.

 

It takes team effort to kill healers now, I like that, but it also makes pugs very tough vs teams with strong healers opposed to teams consisting of mainly dps.

 

Republics Sages tend to go dps, commandos as well, in general.

Not to mention that there is 5 sith inqs per every sage.

Thats for another argument and thread though:-)

But my point is, if you play a sage or commando and is just more interested in dps then I honestly think you should have rethought your class choice.

In PVP, healers are key to victories, and if you think otherwise then you have not either recieved appreciation or you are just a bad healer and not understanding your role.

[zarethu]

I think a higher example is needed to inform those less fortunate.

 

(Example)

Expertise:

 

+50%(damage) - 50%(Damage Reduction) = 0%(damage increase)

+50%(healing) - 30%(Trauma) = +20%(Healing)

 

 

As your damage and your reduction goes no where, your healing increases making it hard to kill.

 

Thank you, your example proves this flawed system. Once again, removing trauma AND healing increase from expertise would even this.

[TankRamp]

And this is why especially on Republic we are loosing alot.

Our healers believe they are inefective.

 

We dont want a game where healing is very powerful, you need to play smart.

 

At the moment, a tank getting healed, in good gear, requires 4 people to kill.

And you want an increase in that?

 

Single healers at the moment can pull out numbers, WITH trauma, that is double the amount of the 2 most top dps of opposing team, or close to it.

 

If anything, healing should be reduced, not increased.

To say it is inefective reaks of inexperience.

 

If you are healing a scoundrel scrapper that is fighting 3 people and not able to keep him alive, then I understand you, but you should not.

 

As for dps. In current state even with a healer behind you, you are forced to move and get out of the heat at times. Thats how it should be.

Having a pocket healer should not make you invulnerable, and as a healer, you do not own the right to make your team impossible to beat, which honestly is close to the situation at the moment.

I feel healing is pretty spot on, again, if anything, it should be lowered, not increased.

 

I just have to say again, to say that healing is inefective is one of the largest troll arguments I heard for a while.

 

And as for shutting down a healer?

Try do that when he have guard on him and as soon as you come close you are jumped by 1 or 2 others, ccd, stunned, rooted...and unless you yourself have a healer backup you are dead as disco before you even lay down 10% damage on said healer.

 

It takes team effort to kill healers now, I like that, but it also makes pugs very tough vs teams with strong healers opposed to teams consisting of mainly dps.

 

Republics Sages tend to go dps, commandos as well, in general.

Not to mention that there is 5 sith inqs per every sage.

Thats for another argument and thread though:-)

But my point is, if you play a sage or commando and is just more interested in dps then I honestly think you should have rethought your class choice.

In PVP, healers are key to victories, and if you think otherwise then you have not either recieved appreciation or you are just a bad healer and not understanding your role.

 

You're clearly not a healer or 50.

I wasn't going to comment on every bit of this wall of text, but I do have to say one thing. 1 tank with a pocket healer might be invincible at level 30. However I have seen one BM Jugg burn my Shadow tank faster than myself and a scoundrel healer can keep him up. And before you say I don't know my role or lack experience I've been a healer since beta WoW. I've PvP healed and PvE healed from WoW to Rift to Starwars. This is one thing I do and I do well. And I know for a fact that healing is lower than it needs to be. If you're actually having trouble with healers the problem resides with you.

Edited January 25, 2012 by TankRamp

[Dzhokhar]

No, your argument just isn't very good. And I don't mean to offend you. Have you actually watched healers or their numbers in lvl 50 PvP?

 

So, even if we assume that healers need a buff, you're solution isn't the right one. Your solution makes it so healing no longer scales with gear. Let's pretend that in some future patch BioWare releases a +50% expertise gear set.

 

With your solution:

+50%(damage) -50%(damage reduction) = 0%(damage increase)

+0%(healing) -0%(trauma) =0%(healing increase)

 

As-is:

+50%(damage) -50%(damage reduction) = 0%(damage increase)

+50%(healing) -30%(trauma) =20%(healing increase)

 

While the 1-49 bracket, where healing does NOT need a buff, is:

+0%(damage) -0%(damage reduction) = 0%(damage increase)

+0%(healing) -30%(trauma) =-30%(healing increase)

 

If there's a problem with healing in the 50 bracket, expertise and trauma have nothing to do with it.

Edited January 25, 2012 by Dzhokhar

[Bnol]

Except you aren't going to get 50% expertise. Ever. Full BM gives you 17%

Your scenario isn't really viable.

 

Your whole argument is that trauma isn't necessary at 50 because of expertise, but in reality the 50 bracket is where it is needed because the damage and damage reduction cancel each other out, but healing still gets stronger with more expertise. The example was to show more clearly a point you are not getting.

[Bnol]

No, your argument just isn't very good. And I don't mean to offend you. Have you actually watched healers or their numbers in lvl 50 PvP?

 

Why are you caring about numbers? Sure healers are going to have lower raw numbers, but raw numbers do not always translate into kills or translate into objectives. Your post stated you were keeping medals out of the discussion.

[zarethu]

So, even if we assume that healers need a buff, you're solution isn't the right one. Your solution makes it so healing no longer scales with gear. Let's pretend that in some future patch BioWare releases a +50% expertise gear set.

 

With your solution:

+50%(damage) -50%(damage reduction) = 0%(damage increase)

+0%(healing) -0%(trauma) =0%(healing increase)

 

As-is:

+50%(damage) -50%(damage reduction) = 0%(damage increase)

+50%(healing) -30%(trauma) =20%(healing increase)

 

While the 1-49 bracket, where healing does NOT need a buff, is:

+0%(damage) -0%(damage reduction) = 0%(damage increase)

+0%(healing) -30%(trauma) =-30%(healing increase)

 

If there's a problem with healing in the 50 bracket, expertise and trauma have nothing to do with it.

 

Excepted dem other stats on your gear?

Edited January 25, 2012 by zarethu

[Astarica]

Your whole argument is that trauma isn't necessary at 50 because of expertise, but in reality the 50 bracket is where it is needed because the damage and damage reduction cancel each other out, but healing still gets stronger with more expertise. The example was to show more clearly a point you are not getting.

 

I had a game that was 1 healer + 7 DPS on our side versus 3 healer + 5 DPS on their side, and I think nobody on our side ever died while the enemy side may have died a total of 10 times. You'd literally have the same 6 on 6 in front of a Voidstar door for 3 minutes straight with absolutely no losses on either side. It's probably one of the most boring matches I've ever had.

[Dzhokhar]

Excepted dem other stats on your gear?

 

Yeah, so if other stats are the problem, why are we trying to fix healing by changing expertise and trauma?

[Bnol]

Thank you, your example proves this flawed system. Once again, removing trauma AND healing increase from expertise would even this.

 

So healers would just have to get PVE gear as the PVP gear does not help them do their job.

[Choobacca]

Why are you caring about numbers? Sure healers are going to have lower raw numbers, but raw numbers do not always translate into kills or translate into objectives. Your post stated you were keeping medals out of the discussion.

 

Yea except it's hard to take objectives without anyone alive to cap them because heals weren't effective enough...

Edited January 25, 2012 by Choobacca

[TankRamp]

I had a game that was 1 healer + 7 DPS on our side versus 3 healer + 5 DPS on their side, and I think nobody on our side ever died while the enemy side may have died a total of 10 times. You'd literally have the same 6 on 6 in front of a Voidstar door for 3 minutes straight with absolutely no losses on either side. It's probably one of the most boring matches I've ever had.

 

Yeah, that sucks and I'm sorry for you. But you just proved my point. if 3 healers result in 10 deaths and 1 healer results in none. See an issue?

[Bnol]

Yea except it's hard to take objectives without anyone alive to cap them because heals weren't effective enough...

 

If all you are doing is spamming heals then you are playing the game wrong. The game is not set-up for heal-botting, period. Heals synergize really well with guard and CC, also healers can output damage at appropriate times (sometimes that means letting a player die for the greater good) to help their team.

 

If you feel you are a burden on your team as a healer you are a bad player, or you are playing with other bad players.

[Astarica]

Yeah, that sucks and I'm sorry for you. But you just proved my point. if 3 healers result in 10 deaths and 1 healer results in none. See an issue?

 

That's because the 3 side with 3 healers had 3 guy protecting their healers, which means they have at most 2 DPS on our 1 healer who were easily neutralized by a combination of CC + guard, so of course our healer never died. Sure, their healers were extremely hard to kill too, but our side was literally invulnerable. The opposing side healed for 1 million total, while we healed for something like 400K total. Here is a problem with bad tactics/team composition not that heals weren't strong enough. The heal-heavy side lost because they forfeited their DPS potential for their defense. 10 total deaths is very low in a map like Voidstar, and normally they would've won that except virtually nobody died on our side because their DPS was too low, as it all went into protecting their healers.

 

You seem to want a situation where the team that healed for 1 million would always win. That'd make a very boring game.

[Astarica]

If all you are doing is spamming heals then you are playing the game wrong. The game is not set-up for heal-botting, period. Heals synergize really well with guard and CC, also healers can output damage at appropriate times (sometimes that means letting a player die for the greater good) to help their team.

 

If you feel you are a burden on your team as a healer you are a bad player, or you are playing with other bad players.

 

Heal in this game is more about ensuring a key guy doesn't die during a crucial stretch, as opposed to something you do to ensure nobody on your side ever died. Assuming roughly equal competition, the only way nobody on your team ever died is if nobody on the other side ever died either.

[zarethu]

Yeah, so if other stats are the problem, why are we trying to fix healing by changing expertise and trauma?

 

You said that healing no longer scales with gear. My response was that your gear does give other stats other then expertise. That’s all I was saying. I made a dumb remark.

 

The point is that as-is you can see the problem, 20% more healing where damage is stuck at 0% (in that 50% scenario). It just doesn’t work out correctly, damage is battling with others expertise on players where as healers are battling with a constant 30% reduction. The way the system works doesn’t really make it fair or balanced for any healer.

 

I’m not saying “Buff healers” I’m saying that there is a problem with the current way healing works in pvp in high end scenario (maybe what I suggested isn’t the best way of doing it but the current way it is isn’t the right way either as you can clearly see by the math that people keep using).

[hidy]

get your aclarity up!

[zarethu]

Heal in this game is more about ensuring a key guy doesn't die during a crucial stretch, as opposed to something you do to ensure nobody on your side ever died. Assuming roughly equal competition, the only way nobody on your team ever died is if nobody on the other side ever died either.

 

But the problem with keeping the crucial people alive is that its easier and have a higher rate of success at keeping that person alive if you just kill the person killing them then it would be healing them. This is the view of the OP, and I tend to agree that its currently how it is.

[tamgros]

IMO it's kind of odd to argue about trama, you're really arguing about healing being too weak. Trauma is always put on when someone takes dmg in pvp, so it's simply an adjustment with healing to balance it with PvE.

 

PvE healing and PvP healing are two very different things so this makes sense.

 

So again, you're really just arguing that healing in PvP is too weak.

 

To that, I simply disagree. I have 3 lvl 50s atm. 1 healer, 1 tank, and 1 dps, and I have to say that healing feels really solid. I can steadily heal through 2 people on one of my teammates, 1 person beating on me (the reason it's lower is because of pushback), and 0 people if they are good at interrupting and I'm bad and don't cc/kite appropriately.

 

I've also found that healing scales pretty well. In and Alderon/Voidstar I get about 2x the healing as the top DPSer on the other team, unless they are good and get on me/cc me appropriately when i don't have an offhealer/someone guarding. This seems about right.

 

The power/output ratios looked pretty good from the sites I've seen. Most also scale really well with crit.

Edited January 25, 2012 by tamgros

[Astarica]

But the problem with keeping the crucial people alive is that its easier and have a higher rate of success at keeping that person alive if you just kill the person killing them then it would be healing them. This is the view of the OP, and I tend to agree that its currently how it is.

 

A crucial stretch is like say, your ball carrier has a small lead with 5 guys pursuing him. Someone snared/KB the pursuers, and is in excellent position to pin them down. Your healer joins the fight and uses all his tricks to keep the guy alive as possible to keep those 5 guys pinned. Killing the 5 guys you're facing is not an option. Neither is winning the fight. You two are going to die horribly at some point, but if you stall those guys for say 10 seconds you got an easy goal because there is no one left to pursue the ball carrier. This scenario also happens all the time in Voidstar for the offense, i.e. the attacker that holds the defender at the blown up door generally guaranteeds an uncontested cap for your attacker even though he has almost no chance of survival.

 

A crucial stretch is not say a 2on2 your healer kept you alive so you killed the two guys attacking you without breaking a sweat. That's a normal battle. I have no idea why people believe 1 guy + 1 healer should automatically win against any two characters that are not the same composition.

[Baldness]

I'm not here to discuss the lack of medals that you get from healing. I'm here to talk about trauma, the 30% healing reduction in PvP. Once upon a time, when you queued up for a Warzone you could play with anyone from 1-50. Now in those days damage had alot of mitigation from defensive cooldowns and armor. It seemed to make sense that healing needed some sort of reduction so that it wouldn't be too strong.

 

However, now that PvP is bracketed for 50s trauma is doing nothing more than becoming a problem. With the amount of stats and expertise on armor, damage is now overcoming the mitigation in the game and the healing combined. Healing is increasingly becoming less and less effective as gear goes up and trauma becomes a relic that is holding healing in PvP back.

 

What I am suggesting is removing trauma from the 50 bracket, but also removing the healing bonus from expertise. If the expertise bonus for healing is left in, it may become overkill. Unfortunately though, the way it stands healing just really isn't all that effective in Warzones as it should be.

 

Healing specced sage's took a beating..

[Sikstylez]

Except you aren't going to get 50% expertise. Ever. Full BM gives you 17%

Your scenario isn't really viable.

 

However, now that PvP is bracketed for 50s trauma is doing nothing more than becoming a problem. With the amount of stats and expertise on armor, damage is now overcoming the mitigation in the game and the healing combined. Healing is increasingly becoming less and less effective as gear goes up and trauma becomes a relic that is holding healing in PvP back.

 

I don't think you quite grasp the concept of the "Example" I made. Compared to your "Solution".

 

The Problem with your Solution is as such:

17+% Damage - 17% Damage Reduction = 0% Increase

0% Healing = Expertise just being basically useless total.

Fact remains. Trauma = Useful still, 17% healing - 30%Trauma = -13% Healing Total. Small effect yes, but it helps none the less. If you can't heal someone enough, and they die.And you also claim to be a healer through out all games. Then you aren't very good healer.

 

As you say in the other post "Damage is overcoming the mitigation in the game" Not likely.. you gain 17% damage vs someone with 17% damage reduction making you have 0% increase. Making that statement false entirely. And you have a -13% Healing to go off of. Not a big deal..

 

Don't forget to note its all "Percentage" based. So yes, it basically scales with your other stats.. via Willpower/Cunning/Aim..

Meaning it goes up with the gear that increases as well as damage/mitigation/healing. All increases the same amount no matter what % expertise is at, 17% 10% 100% 50%.