my gripes with tanking at the moment

[randprin]

first, some background, i've been tanking in all the MMOs i've been playing since 2000, was tanking in Anarchy online, WoW since vanilla, AoC, Warhammer, DC universe, DDO and basiclly every MMO i ever laid my hands on.

 

 

i'm playing an assassin tank, level 50, tank spec'd and geared, playing with a group of 3 friends who are all capable players.

 

so here's a list of what i found to be painful, problematic or simply clunky while doing the endgame flashpoints and hardmodes.

 

1. if the mobs are normals, they're too far apart to AOE tank them, if the mobs are silvers and golds, they're clamped together so tight it's very hard to take out the 2-3 you need to tank without breaking the CC (this is double true if the pack is ranged as quite a few of them are).

2. the tank get CC'd way too often, even with the CC breaker on a 2min cooldown the NPCs tend to stun, knockback and blind all too often.

3. quite alot of bosses and mobs have some form of aggro dump, most bosses have multiple aggro dumps and even those that don't have quite a few abilities that tend to both target someone other then the tank and then stick to him for at least a few seconds afterwards (regardless of current threat, ability usage or taunts)

4. enrage timers are such that quite often the combination of #2 and #3 tend to leave you very small margin for error, (just as an example, i'm almost sure boarding party last boss on heroic is not meant as a "kill two of them and then kite messey while he's enraged").

 

all in all, i love tanknig in SWTOR, it reminds me alot of the AO tanking i used to do, having to be constantly on my toes to keep aggro off the DPS, running around to pick stuff up and using CC in an intelligent manner, but it does get tedious and annoying when my best effort are undermined by clunky mechanics like those i just described.

[Gankstah]

Everything you listed are challenges specifically designed to be, you know, challenging.

 

This is part of what sets TOR apart from typical MMO tanking. These aren't flaws in game design these are hurdles integrated specifically to challenge players. Some challenges are easier to overcome with a particular group make up. Whilst that same make up will falter in other challenges.

 

Tanking isn't SUPPOSED to be easy.

 

People have been whining for years that MMOs were faceroll easy. Then when a developer injects content intended to step away from the mundane all you get is more whining from the same whiners who were crying like school girls that it was too easy to begin with. It never ends.

 

There is not one pull in this game, not ONE, that can't be overcome with ease if players would just stop and think instead of treating all of it like it were a tank n spank. I would bet dollars to dimes there isn't one person on this forum who complains about mob CC that could tell me what mob TYPE is primarily responsible for the CC they encounter.

 

In fact I bet they probably didn't even know there were mob types/classes.

 

And these are the people crying that its too hard.

Edited January 24, 2012 by Gankstah

[Sithtacular]

I don't think he's asking for it to be easy. He's saying certain game mechanics work against each other.

 

There is absolutely no margin of error on threat generation for tanks. In general, I think this is a good thing.

 

However, at the same time:

Every other flippin' mob has some kind of stun/knockback.

You can't target a mob by clicking on it's nameplate.

Mobs aggro dump/switch targets at random times.

There is no target of target frame.

 

As a tank, you're often in a situation where you're helpless to deal with the situation because the game doesn't allow you. This isn't fun. This is different than being able to deal with the situation but the solution being difficult.

 

Nameplate click to target and adding a target of target frame would be two simple and huge quality of life improvements for tanks. It's next to impossible to see who is attacking who in a melee cluster and changing targets with anything other than the tab key (which is buggy itself at times) is an exercise in futility.

 

Gankstah you say "Tanking isn't SUPPOSED to be easy." Maybe not. I think the issue really should be restated. I'd say that tanking shouldn't be disproportionately more difficult than healing or dps.

[Gankstah]

Nameplate click to target and adding a target of target frame would be two simple and huge quality of life improvements for tanks.

This is no excuse.

 

I'm not saying that these wouldn't be.welcome additions. In fact I hope they are added promptly BUT, there's always a "but", 1.) pulls aren't big enough in TOR that tab targeting is impossible. There are only two end game encounters where tab targeting is difficult. 2.) There is an in game mechanic that allows for primary target hot swapping. Finally, 3.) You have the ability to mark targets and on top of that marked targets show up in the Target frame so "accidentally" targeting the wrong mark is code for, "I wasn't paying attention."

 

The tools are there for use. PLENTY of people are using them and succeeding. There are only two excuses that another person cannot succeed just as well as I or others: laziness and ineptitude. End of story.

 

Yes, those tools will be welcomed but the fact is TOR stresses tactics over quantity. The quantity of targets is reduced and complexity scaled. So targeting is just an excuse for failure--not the reason. I have zero sympathy for people who fail and whine instead of trying to examine WHY they failed and in turn over come.

 

There are plenty of people out there succeeding with little issue, there's no reason others can't as well.

[Darkrobe]

I have to say, effort:reward ratios are off, when it comes to being a tank.

It really is a frustrating thing to do when a fight goes as follows:

 

1. Tank starts combat

2. Tank gets CC'd

3. Tank breaks CC

4. Tank is CC'd again

5. DPS/Healer gets aggro

 

And that's every freakin fight. Tanks are getting CC'd either soft/hard (knockbacks, stuns, etc) left and right, and we only get 1x 2min break? Seriously?!! ***?!

 

There is no resist to CC, no immunity, nothing. We want to be tanks, not throw toys.. I know I don't feel like a juggernaut. I know the severe issue, is heavy CC mitigation from a tank, bleeding into PvP. They already designate talents/powers working differently vs player/mobs. So no issue.

 

How about doing something similar to City of Heroes? All cc has a magnitude level. Tanks via spec & stance , get a mag resist to NPC CC. Works for me. Something has to be done.. heck we even hear the cries about how bad CC is in pvp as well...

 

 

As for tanking being difficult... no it's not. What makes it difficult is fighting w/ the mechanics, flaws, bugs, etc that are rampant and beating you over the head, on a constant basis. Want an example, mash the slash or w/e the 1st rage using abliity a warrior gets. They jerk the saber overhead back and forth, and maybe 2-3 sec later actually do the move. How about when you telling the game "attack X" and it does nothing?

Yes the patch supposedly fixed some of that, but not all of it, and it again makes our job much harder than it should be.

 

How about the bug that makes mitigation animation override player input? Ya know the issue, where all the guy wants to do is block w/ sabers or dodge attacks, but not retaliate. Gets ya dead right fast.

 

What really the person above is asking for, is stop beating tanks to death with mechanics, that aren't adding to flavor, but simply placed to be roadblocks. I want fun, I want to feel like a tank, and that's the real issue. Most of us don't.

 

Oh, and saying, " keep it hard, cus it needs to be " ... you got your hard/nightmare modes. Why does regular mode require a feeling of pulling teeth?

 

(before the flaming, I've also tanking in many an MMO, even progression raiding, for many years.. we aren't asking for god mode, just quality of life & fun)

[Sithtacular]

The tools are there for use. PLENTY of people are using them and succeeding. There are only two excuses that another person cannot succeed just as well as I or others: laziness and ineptitude. End of story.

 

Wow. Responding to other people's frustrations by insulting them and calling them bad promotes the snob mentality that pushes people away from the game. Push enough people away and you wind up with another flash-in-the-pan game.

 

 

1. Tank starts combat

2. Tank gets CC'd

3. Tank breaks CC

4. Tank is CC'd again

5. DPS/Healer gets aggro

 

And that's every freakin fight. Tanks are getting CC'd either soft/hard (knockbacks, stuns, etc) left and right, and we only get 1x 2min break? Seriously?!! ***?!

 

You stated my frustration more clearly. Thank you. And before someone says "use your CC break". Yes, we know. However - you often get cc'd multiple times per fight and it's unreasonable to wait 2 minutes between each pull so that your cc break is off cooldown. If you did this, the instance would take forever to complete while the other 3 people in the group would be yelling at you to pull instead of standing around.

[Kithalt]

I would bet dollars to dimes there isn't one person on this forum who complains about mob CC that could tell me what mob TYPE is primarily responsible for the CC they encounter.

Maybe you could try saying what that type is so that people can learn things from the forums instead of just being insulted. I'm only level 26, but this seems like useful information to have. I've so far just gone with "healer dies first", but knowing what is likely to try to CC the tank would be helpful as well.

[WanderingWiseOne]

Wow. Responding to other people's frustrations by insulting them and calling them bad promotes the snob mentality that pushes people away from the game. Push enough people away and you wind up with another flash-in-the-pan game.

.

 

I'm unfortunately going to have to agree with Sithtacular on this point Gankstah. Although I do strongly agree with your points, presenting them in a fashion which critisizes and insults other players may not gain you much favorability within the community and may make the task of getting your point accross much more difficult.

 

All that aside, I have to say I haven't found much issue with the tanking system. To be honest though, I haven't really devlved much into the tanking role in any of the other MMOs I have played so I may not know exactly what is to be expected of the systems regarding it. But I have found, with some playthrough on my shadow, that the tactics necessary for pulls are easy to adapt to over time (even if you have to die a few times). Yes, new enemies can throw some extremely nasty surprises your way and I'd certainly be lying if I said it wasn't sometimes a pain in the a**. But in all honesty complaining about it has gotten me nowhere (besides creating a few new inside jokes with my friends), and all these situations simply required abit of extra persistance and thinking.

 

One thing I'm not sure I quite understand yet is the many complaints I have heard regarding the Tab selecting. Although I do understand its importance to certain individuals who feel quick changing targets is a comfortable part of their playing style, I find it not difficult to live without it. After first hearing talk of the Tab system in the early access week I made a personal note not to use it for enemy selection from then on. For the 33 levels I have played through with my shadow as a tank role I haven't had a single issue selecting enemies or teamates the old fashioned way. And I use the mousepad on my laptop, if that's says anything. The point I'm trying to make is simply that if any players find themselves having too many issues using the Tab key in combat then I would highly recommend attempting to change your strategy from the Tab key to mouse selection. Although I won't deny the change may be difficult to get used to it is certainly not impossible.

[randprin]

just to clarify, i don't have many problems tanking for my group, we are coordinated, on mumble and have our CCs and our priority targets well worked out.

 

the points i was trying to make and apparently were lost on people isn't that tanking is incredibly hard or impossible, it's that the mechanics of chain stunning NPCs and mob placements makes tanking less fun then it ought to be. and the fact some bosses tend to stick to their chosen special ability target after they performed it regardless of taunts or ability use is fraustrating to say the least.

 

so i'll try to sum it up with a (hopefully) simple list of statements.

 

1. groups of normals and weaks spread 50 meters apart are not fun to tank.

2. groups of silvers and golds 1 meter apart from each other are not fun to tank.

3. groups of 4-5 mobs who chain their stun/blind/knockback on the tank one after another are not fun to tank.

4. bosses that do special ability on a group member, then continue to attack said group member while ignoring taunts or abilities used by tank or said group member are not fun to tank.

[Kaigen]

I don't have a lot of experience tanking endgame content, but there are some tactics I've picked up that might help you.

 

1. groups of normals and weaks spread 50 meters apart are not fun to tank.

Groups of normals and weaks don't need to be tanked. It's easy to get in the mindset of "I'm a tank I should have all the aggro," but these sorts of trash pulls are there to be annihilated by the DPS so you can move on.

2. groups of silvers and golds 1 meter apart from each other are not fun to tank.

In my experience, these groups are usually mixed melee and ranged. Identify the ranged and target the CC on them and the melee will come to you. If the pull is all ranged, then use your own tools to separate them; push/pull/harpoon to create a gap between the CC and the non-CC'd mobs, use cone AoE attacks that you can aim away from the CC'd mobs, and focus on burning down the silvers first to reduce the numbers to something manageable (and your need to use AoE to maintain aggro).

3. groups of 4-5 mobs who chain their stun/blind/knockback on the tank one after another are not fun to tank.

Like Gankstah said, identify which mob types use more CC and preemptively CC them to keep it down to a manageable level. If you're dealing with a boss that dumps CC on you right away, warn your DPS/heals to give you a few extra seconds to break free and establish threat, or keep your taunt in reserve to grab him back after you lose him during CC.

4. bosses that do special ability on a group member, then continue to attack said group member while ignoring taunts or abilities used by tank or said group member are not fun to tank.

Be observant: learn the animations and attacks a boss uses that signal he has either aggro-dumped or is just taking a couple swipes at #2 in the aggro table. Remember also that this is there to challenge the healer; the boss occasionally ignores you so that the healer has to pay attention to more than just your health bar. Once you can distinguish when this is the case and when you have really lost aggro, then you can relax when the boss is making a few attacks outside of your control and just hope the healer is on top of things.

[husscool]

Strangely enough, the one thing that might negate all of your issues including too many CC's on you would be some sort of threat meter/indicator. It would be far less frantic if you knew exactly where your threat was on each mob when you are stuck in CC.

 

People seem to think a threat meter would remove all the challenge from tanking. Tanking would remain the same, only quality of life would improve.

[randprin]

*sigh* Kaigen, i think you missed the point of the post.

 

while your advice is on the spot had i not known about any of that, i am and my group does perform all of your suggestions already, again, i do not have trouble with the issues i posted (except #4) but they do annoy the hell out of me.

 

also 2 points you may want to know about endgame.

1. normal mobs hit hard (upward of 3k on a sorc) so yes, they should be if and when possible picked up by the tank.

2. the issue with bosses attacking non tank targets with no special attacks, i'll give an example, serevin (last boss of battle for ilum hardmode) will, after his vanish and ambush on a target, depite being taunted (and he's not immune to taunts) still stick to that target for 1 round of his normal attacks before coming back to the tank (me). this is very annoying if it's my healer he's targeting (and he usually is) because she's a sorcerer and doesn't really have the armor/hp to take that beating on top of his usual ambush damage (even with her pre shielding herself). i believe this is not intended.

 

husscool, threat meters won't help with ANY of the points i made, and i'm not thrilled about meters in any case as they lead to the usual number crunching fools going on and on about their virtual egos. i would find target of target frame to be of far greater value

Edited January 25, 2012 by randprin

[DaxxDeathStrike]

Everything you listed are challenges specifically designed to be, you know, challenging.

 

This is part of what sets TOR apart from typical MMO tanking. These aren't flaws in game design these are hurdles integrated specifically to challenge players. Some challenges are easier to overcome with a particular group make up. Whilst that same make up will falter in other challenges.

 

Tanking isn't SUPPOSED to be easy.

 

People have been whining for years that MMOs were faceroll easy. Then when a developer injects content intended to step away from the mundane all you get is more whining from the same whiners who were crying like school girls that it was too easy to begin with. It never ends.

 

There is not one pull in this game, not ONE, that can't be overcome with ease if players would just stop and think instead of treating all of it like it were a tank n spank. I would bet dollars to dimes there isn't one person on this forum who complains about mob CC that could tell me what mob TYPE is primarily responsible for the CC they encounter.

 

In fact I bet they probably didn't even know there were mob types/classes.

 

And these are the people crying that its too hard.

 

agree 100% with this

[Tersidre]

the only complaint i have about tanking in this game is sometimes how frantic just holding threat on trash can be. On a boss its 90% of the time pretty simple by just rotating your taunts and generally not sucking but on some of the trash pulls in kaon or false emperor on hard mode it can be quite frantic.

 

 

90% of the time this is because the dps isnt really on top of their game and are splitting dps or are just being goofy but sometimes even if dps are doing what they need to do it can be a cause for panic if you accidently misfire a taunt or something.

 

 

it does make it challenging though and not the snooze fest that was wow tanking for the last several years

[Mac_Garen]

I know this is about tanks, but as a healer, I actually enjoy these so called challenges.

IMHO, without those, the other roles are just boring.

For instance, when the mobs are spread around, I'm glad to push them towards the tank.

If there is a tight mob of elites, he will push one out (Jedi Knight) giving me the chance to stun and then force lift.

I know that isn't as good of an option for a shadow consular, but your healer or someone could start the fight with a CC and then just hug you as the other mobs come after him/her/it and as you move away from the CC'd target. (Or both of you could break line of sight)

You can grab the aggro from him/her/it and/or he/she/it can reduce their own aggro.

Your DPS teamates should stick to the same target so you don't have to worry about taunting multiple targets at the same time.

Cooperation goes a long way.

[AnimatedDave]

I have to say I agree with the people that are frustrated. I don't think they are saying tanking is too hard as it exists. They are saying it's annoying as it exists.

 

Something can be difficult without being annoying. I have all but dropped my tanking character for many of the reasons stated. The over use of cc by mobs is a particular big one for me. Slowing down the entire pace of your group through a flashpoint because they have to wait at every group while they wait for the CC to pass enough that the tank can regain control isn't challenging, it's tedious.

 

I hold my hat off to people that are sticking out tanking as it stands because I get frustrated even looking at them while I look at them from my healer.

 

I really enjoy healing in swtor, and really enjoy dps too. Healing is tough too at times but at least it is fun while being difficult. Getting an under leveled group through a flashpoint as a healer is a really rewarding experience. Trying the same as a tank just caused me to go into a sighing marathon.