XtremJedi Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 One of the things that I'm really missing in TOR, is proximity pulling. That is, where you move to just within aggro range of a mob in order to pull him away from other mobs - usually to a safer space where you can kill him. This allows more control obviously... but can also allow people to use AoEs better on the groups that you do pull and allows tanks to use AoE for holding aggro better too. I find myself so often asking people not to use AoE because of CC'ed mobs, which seems a shame given that the toolset is there to be used. Now I recognise, that making proximity pulling too powerful can trivialise content and make CC relatively pointless. But did they have to go completely in the other direction? Do all mobs in a group have to aggro at once at the slightest touch? It would be good, if mobs in a group would always aggro together if they were within... say...10 metres of the mob that reacts to the puller. That would allow skillful pullers to split some groups of mobs away from one or two outlying ranged mobs, at least. Any hostile action on a mob within aggro range of the other mobs would still pull the whole group. There would still be a role for cc in two ways. Firstly, some groups would still be too close together to split with proximity pulling. Secondly, sometimes the pulled group may still include mobs that need to be cc'ed. In the past, I've enjoyed the skill of working out good pulling routes and careful approaches giving just the right profile... and it increases the tactical options a group has to employ. Surely that can't be all bad? X Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tewnam Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 Groups are intended to be pulled together. What you're asking for would just directly reduce the difficulty and complexity of an encounter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XtremJedi Posted January 24, 2012 Author Share Posted January 24, 2012 Groups are intended to be pulled together. What you're asking for would just directly reduce the difficulty and complexity of an encounter. Having CC directly reduces the difficulty and complexity of an encounter. Being able to sneak past groups to get to an objective does so too. A tank having a shield does so... indeed every extra ability or higher quality of armour etc reduce the difficulty and complexity of encounters. These games are all about setting the character and his skills and abilities against the content. Why shouldn't your skill at pulling be one of the things that can aid you? Most groups are set-up very close to each other... and in my suggestion that would mean you'd still end up pulling them all. But when there's one mob out of 4 that's off to one side, being able to pull just the other three would be a nice application of skill and planning. X Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gankstah Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 (edited) ...when there's one mob out of 4 that's off to one side, being able to pull just the other three would be a nice application of skill and planning. That one mob "off to the side" is explicitly put there FOR A REASON. That reason being exactly what you're complaining there is a lack of, "skill and planning". Just because the encounters aren't designed to YOUR liking doesn't mean they aren't designed for a reason. And what you're asking for isn't implemented in any MMO anywhere. You can't pull just one mob or several mobs that are tethered as a group leaving the rest behind without the use of CC. It would defeat the purpose of tethering. That is neither "skillful" or a good example of "planning". That's asking for the easy way out. If you want to show off your "skill" or "planning" expertise then instead of whining about it on the forums I suggest you do what the rest of us do, tackle these encounters as they are designed without treating every pull like they're a tank n spank. These encounters are instituted with LOS, CC and utilities in mind. Try thinking outside the box and see what you come up with instead of zerging every pull like we were back in pre-Luclin. Edited January 24, 2012 by Gankstah Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XtremJedi Posted January 24, 2012 Author Share Posted January 24, 2012 (edited) My... that's a little aggressive. Before you read this post fully, please take the time to re-read my earlier posts. I didn't complain that there is a lack of "skill and planning" - I don't believe that to be the case at all in TOR. Indeed, I've been happy so far with the game - all I did was to suggest something that I thought might add an extra dimension. I certainly didn't whine about anything. I'm perfectly well aware that the ranged mob to one side is placed there for a reason and that there are many ways to deal with them. CC, off-tank, put a comp on them, LOS pull them round a corner to bunch them for AoE, use a pull ability to pull them in and so on... why shouldn't there be one more? Doesn't that add to the tool pallette available to players? Think of proximity pulling like stealth tranqing. You need to approach from just the right angle and not get too close, use LoS to help if necessary - in order to take out one of the mobs with the CC. One slip and you find yourself suddenly tanking a big group! There's a skill in that, which can be very satisfying. Similarly, with proximity pulling, you need to approach from just the right angle, not get too close, use LOS where necessary to pull the main group away from the outlying mob and one mistake or a nasty mob-cast CC will leave you high and dry and needing saving. There are in fact MMOs that allow you to proximity pull. I've been playing MMOs since pretty much the beginning of UO and have played a great many over the years. I can assure you that they exist. Proximity pulling can be quite a rush and does require quite a bit of skill. Indeed, good pullers are much sought after in those games. Some of those games allow too much mob-splitting - and I wouldn't want to advocate that. That's why I put in the qualifiers I did. One last point... yes of course the encounters have been thoughtfully designed. And of course, it's perfectly possible to play them and enjoy the challenges involved.... but that doesn't mean that they couldn't be better still. It doesn't mean that there isn't more player enjoyment that could be derived from them. Honestly, TOR isn't particularly hard at all compared to many MMOs I've played in the past and is holding my attention mostly because of story-line, not because of some imagined difficulty. Levelling and most instanced encounters that I've come across so far are really very straight-forward. I suggest this not because I feel that the encounters are in any way hard as they are... they're not. I suggest this purely because it's a fun and interesting encounter mechanic that I've really enjoyed in the past and wouldn't mind seeing in this game. I get that you feel that a lot of players are whining unnecessarily about TOR. That doesn't mean that everybody who suggests improvements is whining - and you certainly don't need to jump down their throats. X Edited January 24, 2012 by XtremJedi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gankstah Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 My... that's a little aggressive. My tolerance for, "make tanking easier" threads has hit zero. TOR isn't hard. Tanking isn't hard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kallti Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 My tolerance for, "make tanking easier" threads has hit zero. We noticed. I think, at this point, if someone posted a thread about a pie they baked yesterday you would come into it and call them an idiot for wanting tanking to be easy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pinguaq Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 (edited) My tolerance for, "make tanking easier" threads has hit zero. TOR isn't hard. Tanking isn't hard. Don't feel it is your job to educate everyone, and don't be disappointed when people think differently than you. As well as obviously being an intelligent person, you are very knowledgeable on this whole topic, which puts mortals at a disadvantage. The guy is expressing an idea and hasn't yet lost his tolerance for exploring what could very likely be dead ends or treterous trails in SWTOR tanking. When you lose your tolerance it's best just to avoid the conversation. On topic to the thread, this is a fairly significant encounter mechanic and to alter it as suggested could mean rethinking many mob setups and maybe other factors. I'm fine with it as is. It's already unrealistic that I can be in an epic battle 40 feet (or less) away from my mobs family and they stand there oblivious. What could be interesting (but probably not doable) would be a special ability called "wander" that causes a mob to walk away from its group. I can't think through a solution where adding this to the game would work, but... Edited January 25, 2012 by Pinguaq Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XtremJedi Posted January 25, 2012 Author Share Posted January 25, 2012 (edited) I'm fine with it as is. It's already unrealistic that I can be in an epic battle 40 feet (or less) away from my mobs family and they stand there oblivious. What could be interesting (but probably not doable) would be a special ability called "wander" that causes a mob to walk away from its group. I can't think through a solution where adding this to the game would work, but... Funnily enough, the reason I wrote this was because I was doing an instance yesterday and there was a group in my way and also a patrolling mob doing a cirucit. Rather than run the risk of the patrolling mob adding next time he came around, I LoS (proximity) pulled them round a corner to allow me to kill them in a safe space so that he could come around again and not interfere. It reminded me of proximity pulling groups out of range of other mobs and so I wrote this. I would imagine that there would have to be some alterations to the design of encounters, if such a thing were implemented. This kind of thing adds another dimension that designers can use to make things harder, if anything... not easier. Let's say, for example, that attacking a mob with a hostile action causes it to 'call for help' over a 30m distance, but that proximity pulling only caused mobs within 15 metres to react. That way, if you attacked a group in situ, then you might also pull a neighbouring group within 30 metres. But if you proximity pulled them away to a safer spot, then they'd be too far away from the neighbouring groups to cause them to aggro too. Add in some more movement of the mobs, so that the distances between groups change over time.... and you have some fun. That's the kind of encounter dynamic you see in games with this design element. Do it badly and you have two groups on your head. Do it well and you have just the one. There are loads of things you can do with the mechanic as a designer. It wouldn't even have to be for every encounter - you might implement it in specific missions or in specific areas. It may well be too deep-seated a change for them to contemplate. It's just something I noticed that I was missing and thought might make the game even better. It can offer a more dynamic and unpredictable environment in PvE - against the fairly static and predictable group structures we have now. Again, for Gankstah, I'm not suggesting that the game is too hard, nor that tanking is too hard. I'm just saying that there's an element of game-play in other games, that many people really enjoy, which is missing in this game - that might add an extra dimension. That's all. You really need to reduce the sensitivity on your hair trigger mate... X Edited January 25, 2012 by XtremJedi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikkeos Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 I pulled a couple of impossible pulls off in Unrest, back in EQ, with my rogue. And there was no stop to the fighting unless people ran low on juice. A guildy, name's Greebo, created a whole pulling guide out of what we were doing down there. Proximity pulling is one of the hardest pull techniques to master, but very rewarding. All pull options in SWTOR are: Get aggro of the whole group. Even tranq darts aggro the whole group of npc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyle_Lin Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 (edited) That one mob "off to the side" is explicitly put there FOR A REASON. "I have heard reports that you useless morons have been attacking one at a time. WHY? Just, everybody attack him at once...OKAY?" Man I loved those oldschool platform games. Edited January 25, 2012 by Kyle_Lin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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