Shaddaq Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 It wasn't meant change the game or prove a point.... it was meant to express a feeling. It's annoying. That was really all there was to it. I had no clue people wouldn't understand the lore back on page one. The whole thing about "I'm right and they're wrong" came about because people want to continue to argue lore with me.... I'm sorry but it's not an opinion at that point.... they're just wrong.... I don't care if they admit they're wrong or not. They're wrong regardless. But that's why the thread is still going. Hello, Ah yes, they were annoying and emo and emotional and whatever else you said. But this strikes me as interesting... "people want to continue to argue lore with me.... I'm sorry but it's not an opinion at that point.... they're just wrong...." But there is no lore regarding color popularity in the Jedi order in this setting. So... They're wrong because you say so? I think not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sai-to Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 How do you get "red wasn't rare" from that? In known lore, "For millennia, the Jedi Order lit lightsabers in every color and hue imaginable." How is that not clear to you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spymaster Posted January 25, 2012 Author Share Posted January 25, 2012 You have claimed to know what is correct for this setting Wrong again. Where is the twist? The part where you JUST said I claimed something I didn't claim. 'Too many red sabers for the setting' Twisted words are twisted. It's too many to fit with all the other known lore. Why am I explaining this to you again? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spymaster Posted January 25, 2012 Author Share Posted January 25, 2012 (edited) How is that not clear to you? It's prefectly clear to me, I don't know why it's not clear to you that repeating over and over again that they used many different colors has nothing to do with how rare red was for a Jedi. Edited January 25, 2012 by Spymaster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PurpleMagick Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 The phrase "lit lightsabers in every color and hue imaginable" implies that Jedis are as equally likely to pick red as any other color. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaddaq Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 Wrong again. It's too many to fit with all the other known lore. Why am I explaining this to you again? Hello, I see. Putting aside what is proveable in other eras of lore... What on Earth does all other known lore about other settings have to do with this setting and time? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaddaq Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 It's prefectly clear to me, I don't know why it's not clear to you that repeating over and over again that they used many different colors has nothing to do with how rare red was for a Jedi. Hello, We all recognize that rarity can not be ascertained. You are the only one to declare the lack of rarity as 'annoying.' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spymaster Posted January 25, 2012 Author Share Posted January 25, 2012 What on Earth does all other known lore about other settings have to do with this setting and time? Since my argument is whether or not THIS setting fits with known lore of THOSE settings.... the known lore of those settings and time periods is of huge importance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sai-to Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 (edited) So why aren't you arguing about there being too many people with Purple lightsabers? By your logic, we only saw one Purple lightsaber in the movies which was used by a Jedi (not a Sith... even though in the game Purple is a Sith color). So you should have the same problem with Purple as you do Red. In fact, you should have an issue with any color that is not Red, Blue, or Green. (Yellow and Orange in particular) Edited January 25, 2012 by Sai-to Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spymaster Posted January 25, 2012 Author Share Posted January 25, 2012 (edited) The phrase "lit lightsabers in every color and hue imaginable" implies that Jedis are as equally likely to pick red as any other color. No it doesn't. It states that many colors were available but makes no reference to the rarity of any individual colors. Based on that one line alone we only know that Red existed along with every other color.... nothing more, nothing less. We all recognize that rarity can not be ascertained.' No you all don't. See the above post. Edited January 25, 2012 by Spymaster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spymaster Posted January 25, 2012 Author Share Posted January 25, 2012 (edited) So why aren't you arguing about there being too many people with Purple lightsabers Because I havn't seen any. In fact, you should have an issue with any color that is not Red, Blue, or Green. (Yellow and Orange in particular) : Yellow and orange were pretty common before this time. If you knew your lore I wouldn't have to tell you that. Edited January 25, 2012 by Spymaster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sai-to Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 No it doesn't. It states that many colors were available but makes no reference to the rarity of any individual colors. Based on that one line alone we only know that Red was used by Jedi along with every other color.... nothing more, nothing less. Fixed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaddaq Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 Since my argument is whether or not THIS setting fits with known lore of THOSE settings.... the known lore of those settings and time periods is of huge importance. Hello, There is no reason different eras should be consistent. It is akin to arguing against plumbing in Ancient Rome because there was very little plumbing in the century before or after its rise and fall. The known lore of other settings bears not at all on this setting, The Old Republic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sai-to Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 Because I havn't seen any. LOL I knew you'd ignore the post, since it basically destroys your stance. So instead of Purple, let's take Yellow, Orange, and Yellow-black. There are hundreds of Jedi and Sith with these colors, and according to your logic, they shouldn't even exist... or at least should be incredibly rare (since we didn't see them in the movies and only a few have them in EU). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spymaster Posted January 25, 2012 Author Share Posted January 25, 2012 There is no reason different eras should be consistent. Back to this again? It's fiction. There is reason they "should" be consistant.... if you want them to show the same setting. Now, they can be consistant, or not. But if they aren't consistant you can't argue that they're same setting anymore.... because the setting has changed. My point being that while they don't need to be consistant, you can't make changes to them and then claim that they ARE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PurpleMagick Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 No it doesn't. It states that many colors were available but makes no reference to the rarity of any individual colors. Based on that one line alone we only know that Red existed along with every other color.... nothing more, nothing less. Exactly. We don't know that red is any more rare than any other color in this time frame. Which implies that Jedis are as equally likely to choose red as any other color. You assumption that red lightsabers are rare has two problems. A. Lore clearly states that red Sith lightsaber crystals are synthetic which means that they are only as rare as the number of people who have the desire to create them. They could potentially be manufactured en masse. B. The assumption that red lightsabers are rare in other eras (which isn't necessarilly true) and therefore must be rare in this era is what's known as a deductive fallacy. This is compounded by A, above, which implies that if a group of Jedi all decide they want red lightsabers they could all easily acquire them if they desire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spymaster Posted January 25, 2012 Author Share Posted January 25, 2012 I knew you'd ignore the post, since it basically destroys your stance. Everything anyone posts seems to "destroy my stance" according to you... becuase you think my stance is the Straw man in your head. So instead of Purple, let's take Yellow, Orange, and Yellow-black. There are hundreds of Jedi and Sith with these colors and according to your logic, they shouldn't even exist... or at least should be incredibly rare (since we didn't see them in the movies and only a few have them in EU Huh? Where exactly did I say Yellow, Orange, and Yellow-black don't exist? If you're going to claim that something is by my logic... it shoud be based on something I said. Don't you think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sai-to Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 (edited) Huh? Where exactly did I say Yellow, Orange, and Yellow-black don't exist? If you're going to claim that something is by my logic... it shoud be based on something I said. Don't you think? You have stated time and again: "No Jedi in the movies use Red, and only a few Jedi use Red in the EU. Therefore, it should be rare for Jedi to have red in the game." That's a paraphrase, but it accurately represents your stance. Now, I'm applying simple logic to expound your claim: "No Jedi in the movies use Yellow, Orange, or Yellow-black, and only a few Jedi use Yellow or Orange in the EU. Yellow-black doesn't even exist in EU. Therefore, it should be rare for Jedi to have Yellow, Orange, and Yellow-black in the the game." Yet, even though there are hundreds of players with those colors, you aren't ***** ing about those. It just shows your hypocrisy, along with the fallacy of your logic. Edited January 25, 2012 by Sai-to Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spymaster Posted January 25, 2012 Author Share Posted January 25, 2012 (edited) Exactly. We don't know that red is any more rare than any other color in this time frame. Which implies that Jedis are as equally likely to choose red as any other color. In THIS time period... yes. How many times do I have to agree with that before you people get it? You assumption that red lightsabers are rare has two problems. It's not an assumption. Red IS rare, thoughout all known Star Wars history. A. Lore clearly states that red Sith lightsaber crystals are synthetic which means that they are only as rare as the number of people who have the desire to create them. They could potentially be manufactured en masse. The potential to make lots of red crystals doesn't change the fact that this isn't done in known lore. So AGAIN..... while it might hapopen in this time... that would be a change from other eras. B. The assumption that red lightsabers are rare in other eras It's not an assumption. KNOWN lore is KNOWN. You can't say "well maybe there's lots of guys with red we don't know about, because that's not KNOWN lore. If lots of guys in this time period use red, it's a change from the setting of KNOWN lore... I've said this like EVERYTIME. Trying to bring up imaginiary Jedi that might exist, who we don't know about, doesn't have any effect on any of my points. Edited January 25, 2012 by Spymaster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaddaq Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 Back to this again? It's fiction. There is reason they "should" be consistant.... if you want them to show the same setting. Now, they can be consistant, or not. But if they aren't consistant you can't argue that they're same setting anymore.... because the setting has changed. My point being that while they don't need to be consistant, you can't make changes to them and then claim that they ARE. Hello, The Old Republic is a setting still under the process of being defined. As such, no one has 'changed' the Old Republic to make it different from other settings, nor would anyone need to. The Old Republic is not the same as other eras. It simply exists in the same universe, filling a partially undefined moment in a continuum of history. One would not expect all eras of history to be the same, nor all fashions to remain unchanged over time. Consistency between eras is shown in many elements of a setting, and saber color popularity is hardly the judge of it. Your claim that saber color is inconsistent doesn't make it so. There is no reason to presume that saber color popularity or tradition should remain the same throughout millenia of history. It is far more sensible to presume that fashion changes, and that sometimes, certain color choices rise to prominence and fall to obscurity. Instead of using the term 'inconsistent' you might have used the term 'different.' These words are not the same. One implies wrongness, the other implies a separate identity. A separate identity for an ancient era? That's just good policy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spymaster Posted January 25, 2012 Author Share Posted January 25, 2012 (edited) "No Jedi in the movies use Red, and only a few Jedi use Red in the EU. Therefore, it should be rare for Jedi to have red in the game." That's a paraphrase, but it accurately represents your stance. You're missing the HUGE part in which I explain to you, over and over again, that the reason I'm saying it 'Should" be that way is to fit the setting of known lore in StarWars history. That's a major point you continue to ignore. It should be that way to fit the setting.... it doens't need to be that way. They can change whatever they want, but if you're going to make changes to the setting admit that the setting has changed!! That's the WHOLE point. "No Jedi in the movies use Yellow, Orange, or Yellow-black, and only a few Jedi use Yellow or Orange in the EU. Yellow-black doesn't even exist in EU. Therefore, it should be rare for Jedi to have Yellow, Orange, and Yellow-black in the the game." My logic is not using just the movies... so the whole Yellow, Orange argument is silly. Yellow-black would be annoying if I saw it more than a few times. I havn't. I see red, red, red, red, red, blue, red, , red, yellow, red, red..... on and on. Further.... Coming in here and telling me I should be upset about colors that I don't see doesn't have anything to do with the argument at hand. Lots of Jedi with red don't fit the other known time periods regardless of my opinion on yellow or purple or any other color. Edited January 25, 2012 by Spymaster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spymaster Posted January 25, 2012 Author Share Posted January 25, 2012 The Old Republic is a setting still under the process of being defined. Seriously.... again?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sai-to Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 (edited) You're missing the HUGE part in which I explain to you, over and over again, that the reason I'm saying it 'Should" be that way is to fit the setting of known lore in StarWars history. That's a major point you continue to ignore. It should be that way to fit the setting.... it doens't need to be that way. They can change whatever they want, but if you're going to make changes to the setting admit that the setting has changed!! That's the WHOLE point. Exactly. And Yellow, Orange and Yellow-black don't fit the Lore either. No Force user in the movies use them, and only a few use them in the EU. (this is your exact argument for Red). So they don't fit the setting. Therefore, they should be rare. But there are hundreds of players that use Yellow, Orange, and Yellow-black. So you should be just as up-in-arms about those colors as well. Edited January 25, 2012 by Sai-to Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DerekMiles Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 I know this is going to get me a lot of hate, however the creator of Star Wars did once said that “Good guys get blue and Green, and bad guys get red. That’s just the way it is”. Now I know it’s still like the really hip thing to hate on George. But when the creator of IP sets the rules, well them be the rules then. Also the way these “dark” Jedi get forced out of certain colour options, kind of makes a light saber akin to a mood ring, when it is not meant to work like that. I think if a dark Jedi wants to have a green blade they should. I would never do it for my any of my Sith, but I think the dark side Sith players should have the option for green or blue. Green is kind of an evil color any way. My main point is this. When a person sits down to play a game, that’s their game. I don’t want them telling me how to play my game, so I won’t tell them to play their game. So when you see a horde of “Too cool for school “Jedi sporting red light sabers, you just kind of have to get over it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spymaster Posted January 25, 2012 Author Share Posted January 25, 2012 (edited) Exactly. And Yellow, Orange and Yellow-black don't fit the Lore either. They actually all exist. Based on lore. Rarity is the issue. I don't know why you don't see that. No Force user in the movies use them, and only a few use them in the EU. The movies cover a small time period. If this game took place during the movie era you'd have a point. It doesn't, so you don't. Yelow and orange were common during past time periods, so on that note you're just flat out wrong. (this is your exact argument for Red). So they don't fit the setting. Therefore, they should be rare. They are rare as far as I can tell. But there are hundreds of players that use Yellow, Orange, and Yellow-black. So you should be just as up-in-arms about those colors as well. Why would I be upset if I rerely see them? And you really need to drop the whole yellow / orange thing since those colors aren't rare in EU. Edited January 25, 2012 by Spymaster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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