Good vs Evil

[WickedDjinn]

What's amusing is that this discussion is going on in a Starwars forum, where the canon where good and evil are so clearly defined. If you look at Starwars and think there is no light and dark side... You're out of your mind. Seriously, you are just imposing your own ideas onto the franchise and declaring it reality.

[Jorander]

What's amusing is that this discussion is going on in a Starwars forum, where the canon where good and evil are so clearly defined. If you look at Starwars and think there is no light and dark side... You're out of your mind. Seriously, you are just imposing your own ideas onto the franchise and declaring it reality.

 

There is actually an argument for what he is doing, but I personally don't agree with it, and even if I did, it hardly matters, because this discussion has pretty much nothing to do with Star Wars at all anymore. If I wanted to, I could just say, "by the laws of the Lucasverse, "x," is true," and that would be the end of it.

Edited December 15, 2011 by Jorander

[Berlichtingen]

I've always rather liked the Sith Code

 

Peace is a lie, there is only passion.

Through passion, I gain strength.

Through strength, I gain power.

Through power, I gain victory.

Through victory, my chains are broken.

The Force shall free me

 

There is nothing inherently evil in that (regardless of your stance on relativism/absolutism). Unfortunately, Lucas has a rather simplistic view of things and so the Sith are portrayed as insanely/stupidly evil. It should be a code that exalts the individual over the group. What it turned into is a society made up of individuals that are intent on stabbing each other in the back. The closest model in the real world would be the corporate culture, and even there, not EVERYONE is trying to stab someone in the back. The various Darths throughout Star Wars movies, books and comics are cartoons (though, that doesn't stop Vader from being one of the coolest characters in the movies).

 

On the flip side, the Jedi remind me of Anthony Burgess' A Clockwork Orange. I just cannot abide the emotionless ethos. The Jedi seem to be attempting to become machine like, and I see nothing moral coming from that

[Jorander]

I've always rather liked the Sith Code

 

Peace is a lie, there is only passion.

Through passion, I gain strength.

Through strength, I gain power.

Through power, I gain victory.

Through victory, my chains are broken.

The Force shall free me

 

There is nothing inherently evil in that (regardless of your stance on relativism/absolutism). Unfortunately, Lucas has a rather simplistic view of things and so the Sith are portrayed as insanely/stupidly evil. It should be a code that exalts the individual over the group.

 

That is exactly what the Sith Code is and does. The whole of Sith philosophy is one of self-validation through strength and achievement.

 

What it turned into is a society made up of individuals that are intent on stabbing each other in the back. The closest model in the real world would be the corporate culture, and even there, not EVERYONE is trying to stab someone in the back. The various Darths throughout Star Wars movies, books and comics are cartoons (though, that doesn't stop Vader from being one of the coolest characters in the movies).

 

On the flip side, the Jedi remind me of Anthony Burgess' A Clockwork Orange. I just cannot abide the emotionless ethos. The Jedi seem to be attempting to become machine like, and I see nothing moral coming from that

 

The problem with what you are saying, is that it is contradictory, at least in a sense. The Sith philosophy is so inward-focused, that nothing else but the self has value, and if one can increase through another's decrease, you are going to see a clash, hence the constant betrayals. Sith philosophy, and the nature of the dark side of the Force, invite betrayal. In the words of one dark side master, it is axiomatic. The Jedi on the otherhand, are not emotionless. they do not attempt to turn off or squelch their emotions, they only attempt to be at peace with them.

 

The disconnect everyone seems to have with these two respective codes, is that people don't realize they are not teachings, but mantra, designed to internalize a set of teachings, and therefore cannot be taken literally. Looking into the actual teachings of the Sith and Jedi, apart from their mantra, then coming back to the mantra, everything about both orders makes so much more sense.

 

I personally couldn't live by Sith teaching, there are too many other people that I place value on to ever properly realize their ideals. That and, you know, the whole lack of the Force thing.

Edited December 15, 2011 by Jorander

[Berlichtingen]

The problem with what you are saying, is that it is contradictory, at least in a sense.

Perhaps I wasn't as clear as I could have been... it is late here. Even in a society that is based on the supremacy of the individual, there still has to exist a level of concern for the group. I'll use the corporate culture as an example again. So, I want to gain power within the company, and I'm willing to stab in the back whoever gets in my way... I still don't want to do anything that will inherently damage the company, because without the company, there's no power base. Of course you're going to get your Madoffs, but they're going to be a tiny minority. In Star Wars, the Sith are universally Madoffs. The flaw, as I see it, is that Lucas set up a universe of stark white and black with very little grey... something I just don't believe in. I can see a group existing that follows the Sith code, but not in the way portrayed in the movies/books/etc. It would be cutthroat, even universally sociopathic, not psychopathic.

[BlazingShadow]

Mmm. I need to stop viewing and participating in these debates because at the end of the day, trying to make a point about, well, anything to do with one's personal beliefs results in them strengthening their resolve and closing their minds.

[Sadistra]

That is exactly what the Sith Code is and does. The whole of Sith philosophy is one of self-validation through strength and achievement.

 

 

 

The problem with what you are saying, is that it is contradictory, at least in a sense. The Sith philosophy is so inward-focused, that nothing else but the self has value, and if one can increase through another's decrease, you are going to see a clash, hence the constant betrayals. Sith philosophy, and the nature of the dark side of the Force, invite betrayal. In the words of one dark side master, it is axiomatic. The Jedi on the otherhand, are not emotionless. they do not attempt to turn off or squelch their emotions, they only attempt to be at peace with them.

 

The disconnect everyone seems to have with these two respective codes, is that people don't realize they are not teachings, but mantra, designed to internalize a set of teachings, and therefore cannot be taken literally. Looking into the actual teachings of the Sith and Jedi, apart from their mantra, then coming back to the mantra, everything about both orders makes so much more sense.

 

I personally couldn't live by Sith teaching, there are too many other people that I place value on to ever properly realize their ideals. That and, you know, the whole lack of the Force thing.

 

I can agree with you to an extent, but, if you take it to real life (rl) vs a game, I find it funny that people would not agree.

 

The "Force" aka, a hokey religion to some, a strict code to others, and even unheard of to some others is a form of organized religion. It all depends on the point of view that you get your facts from.

 

I live in the U.S. and history would tell me that everything my forefathers did was great and for the good of the country, at least that is what I was told. As I grew up I started to form my own opinions about what I felt was right or wrong.

 

This is just one planet, SW:TOR is an entire galaxy of cultures with unique beliefs that have spread out and done there best to further there own way of life. The entire concept of good vs evil...right vs wrong...left vs right... Scott Baio vs Chachie.. wait how did he get there...

 

anyway..

 

It truly comes down to point of view. If somebody thinks you are good/evil then It is up to them to decide otherwise, you can only be yourself.

[Heraclius]

There is no good or evil, just hate.

[Jorander]

I think we can go ahead and let the subject drop, I am sufficiently satisfied with your response. That said, pleasant dreams. Not writing this for the last word, just don't want to be rude by ignoring your post, especially after you put so much into it. Edited December 15, 2011 by Jorander

[imatooltoo]

Jedi are PURE, but doesn't mean good.

Sith are CORRUPT, and evil. Wanting to kill for fun and use people to there advantage is evil. If you don't think so, then you're probably evil.

 

Republic and Empire is a completely different story.

Both of them have there pros and cons.

Republic doesn't = good, Empire doesn't = evil.

Edited December 15, 2011 by imatooltoo

[Cainrae]

Being Sith is being Human. Human nature is driven by emotions (passion) and we use our physical and mental strength to climb the food chain. Argueably the Jedi are the manifestation of spirtual perfection in ties to Buddhism.

 

Atleast that's my view of the whole Sith/Jedi situation.

Edited December 15, 2011 by Cainrae

[Freezoide]

The "dark" side of the Force is really just an extension of power that the Jedi choose to block rather than exploit. They fear the level of power that the Force can offer, and so they limit themselves for the sake of what they to be as purity. Whereas the Sith exploit all aspects of the Force to their advantage, in order to be as effective as they can be.

 

Slightly disagree. I agree that the "dark" side is a way to use the force but your point of view gives the impression that the "light" side is limited. I think that the Dark and light side stand more perpendicular to each other. The strenght of one side depends on the connection with the force and depends on the way someone progresses and learns.

 

Light and Dark are trying to be measured with the capabilities with the force, it seems that the results of many different battles are contradictionary towards the point that one side is stronger.

 

It's not which side is stronger, but it's the connection and the pursuit of knowlegde/training what makes someone strong in the force.

 

And focused on TOR specifically; it seems that every possibility of character, has it's other faction's counterpart. Since this is a game focused on joyment of all and fairness (well I assume that here of BW, otherwise the idea is somewhat objective), I suspect that both sides are of same strenght.

Edited December 15, 2011 by Freezoide

[Oobro]

There are no such things as good or evil, just someone's point of view

[BladeStrike]

There are no such things as good or evil, just someone's point of view

Try and justify your acts all you want, you're evil

 

This isn't like WoW's Horde. The Sith (Order) have and always will be evil. Notice I said Sith and not the entire Empire.

Edited December 15, 2011 by BladeStrike

[Wormzilla]

Good. Bad. I'm the guy with the lightsaber.

 

+1 ... now if your name was Ash I would be more impressed.

[xeeki]

I don't really agree with either the Sith or the Jedi, Lukes Jedi Order seem more like something for me. Tap into the dark side all you want, but you better use it only to defend yourself and/or others.

 

I don't see why Jedis shouldn't be able to use Force Lightning in battle for example.

[KismetTKM]

Look at it in this light.

 

 

The Sith embrace the nature of humanity. Which is to strive to be the best. To oust whomever is in your way and crush those underfoot so that you come out on top. That is basic human nature and is relevant even in the real world today.

 

Corporations don't become successful by making sure everyone is happy. CEO's don't rise to their position by not stepping on some toes and making some people mad. And nations don't rise to power without showing their strengths and (if need be) willingness to commit violence.

 

 

The Jedi, on the other-hand, try to avoid these simple human qualities and instead strive to be selfless and to live only to serve.

 

 

Which is why so many things are considered off-limits to Jedi. Love, hate, anger etc... These are emotions and feelings which make us who we are and the Jedi teach that they are evil? So, by the Jedi's philosophy, you're evil just for being how you were created.

 

So, who are the insane ones and who are the practical realistic people?

 

 

 

The only reason the Sith are considered evil are because the Jedi don't agree with their philosophies and their state of mind. But, who says that the Jedi are the Alpha and Omega of what is right and wrong in the galaxy? Oh... the Jedi say they are.

 

So, the Jedi say that unless you reject your own humanity and accept that the Jedi are the end-all when it comes to what is right and wrong than you're evil?

 

Dissolutioned and out of touch with their own human nature. Makes you really want to be a Jedi, huh?

 

 

 

 

And another thing to ponder: If the light side is supposedly more powerful than the dark side...

 

Why couldn't Yoda beat the Emperor 1v1?

Why did Luke lose to, both, Vader and the Emperor 1v1 and the only time he beat Vader was when he began to lose control and let his anger come out?

Why was there no Jedi that could defeat Count Dooku accept for Anakin who routinely let his anger control his actions?

Why did Darth Maul soundly defeat Qui Gon Jin in 1v1 combat, only to die to Obi Wan who then defeated him after he was enraged (a darkside trait) at his master's death?

 

Almost every single victory that a Jedi has achieved in the Star Wars movies was from letting a darkside trait show itself. I guess we can add hypocrisy to the list of Jedi faults as well.

Edited December 15, 2011 by KismetTKM

[Skexy]

Evil will always triumph over good, because good is dumb.

 

 

 

but really folks...good just doesn't get any simpler than the wisdom of the great saviours of the future, Wyld Stallion. Be Excellent to each other.

 

-skexy

[Teksun]

Are we as a whole ignoring 'Midichlorians'?

 

 

YES. Now and forever. That part of the movie should be forever stricken from the record and erased from history.

 

That is all

[Berlichtingen]

That part of the movie should be forever stricken from the record and erased from history.

RANT

What should be stricken is everything starting at the end of the opening credits of episode 1 and the end credits of episode 3. Those movies were awful.

Episode 1... wherein we learn that small children are seldom enjoyable actors, making fun of Rastas is not funny, video game commercials in the middle of movies is tedious and Midichlorians are every bit as stupid sounding as reversing the polarity is in Star Trek

Episode 2... wherein we learn that teen angst leads to the Dark Side... oh wait... we already knew that. Dawson's Creek in space I could have lived without

Episode 3... I've blanked most of this movie, but two things still stick in my head. The turning of Anikin... which amounted to "Join the Dark Side... we have cookies" "Ok, I'll go kill children". And the birth of Darth Vader... OMG! The only thing missing was Vader singing Putting On The Ritz to make that scene a complete rip off of Young Frankenstein

/RANT

[Falloutgear]

OP, good and evil are purely objective concepts to begin with, completely dependant on one persons view. You cannot even argue the ethics and motives of either side to any effectiveness.

 

 

 

Objective matter is concrete, subjective matter is relative. Good and Evil are therefore subjective ideas.

 

Don't people use dictionaries anymore? Dictionary.com It's free, use it! I'm not just talking to the person I'm quoting. I use it myself and it has greatly increased my ability to understand information as well as share it. Better to be succinct and concise then throw words around so equivocally. Semantics and etymology are equally important, factors to consider when trying to express something.

[NinjaSpaceJedi]

Let's see;

 

The Jedi are selfless, protect the weak and choose peace above violence.

 

The Sith in turn are selfish, do anything to get power, including hurting, murdering, torturing.

 

 

Good and evil in this case is not subjective. Star Wars has ALWAYS been about light vs dark, right vs wrong.

 

Sure in the real world it's not so clear cut and distinguishable, but you can't argue that what the Sith do in the game and in the movies would be remotely justifiable in any way or form in the real world. No, it would be wrong, punishable, unjust, cruel, immoral, whatever u want to call it.

 

Sith are the dark side - evil. Jedi are the light side - good. That's the way the story is meant to go, regardless of the existence of good and evil in the real world.

[Ellvaan]

Greetings everyone!

 

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Please remember the topic is in the setting of the Star Wars Universe, are the Sith and Jedi good or evil?

 

Thank you and happy discussion!

Edited December 17, 2011 by Ellvaan

[Mordegrus]

Let's see;

 

The Jedi are selfless, protect the weak and choose peace above violence.

 

The Sith in turn are selfish, do anything to get power, including hurting, murdering, torturing.

 

 

Good and evil in this case is not subjective. Star Wars has ALWAYS been about light vs dark, right vs wrong.

 

Sure in the real world it's not so clear cut and distinguishable, but you can't argue that what the Sith do in the game and in the movies would be remotely justifiable in any way or form in the real world. No, it would be wrong, punishable, unjust, cruel, immoral, whatever u want to call it.

 

Sith are the dark side - evil. Jedi are the light side - good. That's the way the story is meant to go, regardless of the existence of good and evil in the real world.

 

Morality is a complicated issue.

But it is usually based on perception.

[Ellvaan]

Greetings everyone!

 

Since there is a more active and current thread on whether or not Sith and Jedi are good or evil, we are going to close this thread and ask that you please continue this discussion in the following thread:

 

• Are the Sith really Evil?
  

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