Why 1.1.1 is going to buff concealment (beware, math inside)

[Sprigum]

This whole post works on flawed logic. Nerfs CANNOT be "buffs". That's like saying "My car broke down, but now I get to ride my bike and get in shape!"

 

Don't you understand that not only can you already do this, but that come 1.1.1 this exact rotation will do LESS damage than it does currently?

 

I mean seriously dude, put on that thinking cap again.

 

Besides, kiting is our biggest issue to contend with and without a lot of front end burst and CC, we're going to have a rough time keeping people in one spot long enough to kill em.

 

All I can say is if you get someone sub 50% and they get a good kite going on you, drop into cover and snipe for all your worth, even as concealment I get 2500+ crits on snipe and 3k on Probe.

 

Our ability to go into cover is overlooked constantly.

 

 

If you can find someone without a CC breaker up, without any survivability cooldowns, knockbacks, or sprints then your rotation might work.

 

Trouble is that every class you run across except other ops are going to have 2 or more of these.

 

Concealment is going to do decent DMG after 1.1.1, but we're going to do it in melee range, without any gap closer whatsoever, without any survival CDs, and without any hope of being competitive against anything but bad players.

 

Marauders and Mercs already give me a lot of grief. Kill them once and you spend the entire match with them auto targeting you any time you're in sight.

[Masahiko]

so i decided to double-check and apply logic to your own math--which btw, is terrible--and tell the actual story. I used all your own numbers (which i doubt are accurate) to prove the point. Here you go;

 

current rotation:

Hs + ab -> shiv -> bs + ab -> lc

2434 + 1576 -> 1534 -> 1617 + 1576 -> 1545

total damage: 10282

 

there's your first mistake, you dropped one of the damage totals to make it seems like less damage than it really was. When i add them up correctly it's already creeping up on your total damage. Now the post 1.1.1 numbers of the same rotation;

1947 + 1576 -> 1534 -> 1617 + 1576 -> 1545

total damage: 9795

 

keep in mind this is all pre-mitigation, and with the arp from ab nerfed, will likely widen the difference. Then there's the fact that the ab dot is being rolled into the damage of attacks it's coupled with, which makes modelling the dps for comparisons sake even harder. Oh, and we are now lets add up your proposed rotation post 1.1.1;

 

hs + ab -> db -> shiv -> bs+ab -> lc

1947 + 1576 -> 472 -> 1534 -> 1617 + 1576 -> 1545

total damage: 10267

 

as we can see already, having to throw a db in just to make up for the lost damage--assuming js doesn't still fill resolve and make them immune to the stun--is quite a waste of a gcd. If we compare the damage per gcd of the original rotation as it stands (10282 / 4 gcd's) we sit on 2570.5 d/gcd. With the amended version, it drops a hefty 20% to 2053.4 d/gcd (10267 / 5 gcd's). Now, let's compare your "proposed" rotation;

 

hs + ab -> db -> shiv -> bs + ab -> lc -> fb -> ep -> bs

1947 + 1576 -> 472 -> 1534 -> 1617 + 1576 -> 1545 -> 0 -> 1922 -> 1617

total damage: 13806

 

so, for starters, you are eating substantially more gcd's--8 to be precise. There are a number of anomalies with this that should be mentioned. For starters, you throw fb in there... 1 gcd after refreshing ab's dot. Fb breaks on damage, so odds are this really will do nothing other than waste a gcd and possibly interrupt them at the expense of one of your most powerful cc affects. Then there's the final bs thrown in there, assuming you did everything correctly and strung the moves together, you would get to it 4.5 seconds after your preceding bs, or roughly halfway into it's cd. I modeled the damage for it just to prove a point, but that bs cannot actually happen since you would have to wait up to 4.5 seconds after placing ep to activate it. Oh, and you'd have to be behind them, which would be nearly impossible since at this point ab has broken fb, ep has gone off, and you still don't have bs off cd... But, let's look at the numbers;

 

13806 / 8 gcd = 1725.75 d/gcd

 

so your rotation does less damage per gcd used. Let's compare damage per energy cost as i get ready to point out yet another flaw;

 

current rotation: Hs (17) + ab (13) -> shiv (15) -> bs (0) + ab (13) -> lc (15)

total energy: 73

damage per energy: 140.85

 

your rotation: Hs (17) + ab (13) -> db (10) -> shiv (15) -> bs (0) + ab (13) -> lc (15) -> fb (10) -> ep (20) -> impossible bs (0)

total energy: 113

damage per energy: 122.18

 

so as i mentioned, energy was a flaw. I'm not sure if you strung all these together you'd be able to fit all the moves in since ep has an extremely high 20 energy cost, and you need that extra fb + db at 10 energy a piece. So your rotation is worse in terms of d/gcd and d/e, features impossible strings of abilities given cd's and possible energy restrictions, and wastes numerous abilities that could be better used elsewhere. It's in no way better.

 

math!

[caultonpos]

Does all this assume the other player is standing there doing nothing

[snavekd]

wait what?

 

you can do more dmg with more globals?

 

SOMEONE INFORM THE POLICE!!!!!

 

 

theres nothing stopping you doing your second scenario RIGHT NOW. and doing MORE DAMAGE BECAUSE HS AND ARMOR PEN ARE BEING NERFED

 

NO WAY!!! You mean if I do 9 abilities, instead of 5, I do more damage? and I only have to blow all my cc's?? Wow what a buff...

 

I think they should make explosives hurt me too, then I can even do MORE DAMAGE!!!

[Agrian]

ive known this since the patch notes were revealed. the $50,000 question is will Jarring Strike fill the resolve bar after 1.1.1?

 

if the answer to that question is "No"... hoooo boy, the tears will flow. 1.5 seconds is not long, no. But it is enough to get that Debilitate off, which will actually be able to be used now.

 

you know what that is? thats the ol' Cheap Shot/Kidney Shot wombo combo that made WoW Rogues so infamous.

 

if the answer to the resolve question is "Yes, it still gives full resolve" well then its a wasted talent. the only work around to not getting KB'd or CC'd yourself after the HS opener would be to time your HS so that your opponent has just used a global and cant mash the "lolikiteu" button long enough for you to get the DB off.

 

also, many people criticize the OP for speaking in "Best Case Scenario" terms. However the statements used to criticize are using "Worst Case Scenario" terms.. yes a <insert class here> can KB/Stun/Root/Etc you between the 1.5 second window where you open with HS and use DB.

 

But honestly, that would mean that your opponent already knows you are there, has his hands ready to mash those buttons furiously, isnt already locked in a GCD himself, has the ability off CD, and is generally completely focused on fending off and attack by an Operative.

 

TL;DR: Debilitate will get nerfed next.

[snavekd]

the $50,000 question is will Jarring Strike fill the resolve bar after 1.1.1?

 

TL;DR: Debilitate will get nerfed next.

 

I'm not too optimistic that it won't fill resolve, but it shouldn't following stun timers. And yes, then we can just debil for even more stun than before and the QQ will continue.

[Thefriar]

Anyone who does math to prove a point has my repsect but that math was done based on attacking a brain dead opponent which you don't face that often. As long as the resolve bar is not filled by HS I have no serious issues with this nerf. The QQ will start again as others have stated because all the sudden I can be stun locked to death although I have this feeling the reslove bar will be filled by HS in which case the class is worthless. I guess if you pvp pre 50 or vs total idiots then you can use what is described in the first post otherwise you are dead.

 

Least played class? Try not played at all class.

[Kieran]

Here is a novel idea and one ops players have thrown out for a month. "If you're worried about not killing someone with your opening sequence, bring a teammate so they can cc the guy killing you. This game isn't a 1v1 deathmatch."

 

 

Ziiiiiiiiiiiiiing...

 

 

"If you're worried about being 1v1'd against an operative now, bring a teammate so they can cc the operative and proceed to face roll him. This game isn't a 1v1 deathmatch."

 

Am I doing it right?

[Izumal]

JS will most definitely continue to fill the resolve bar, otherwise it will just fuel the QQ being stunned for 5.5 sec instead of 3, all the while getting shiv'd and backstabbed.

 

Since we are talking alternatives, lethality looks more and more promising, at least you get 10M

 

HS > DB > Corrosive dart > Corrosive grenade then cull then do the pvp dance, the dots should eat away for a good amount especially is you are specc'd in to dual ticks, increased crit ticks, + % damage, etc.

 

I don't do math, I will likely respec and give it a go and see how it plays.

 

In my opinion, 1.5 JS isnt worth it any longer for a 5th tier spec that fills the resolve.

With the additional nerf to Armor from AB and damage from HS - a trifecta of nerfs to mitigation, damage and control

 

Here is my question to end this, with so little post 1.1 data (which made a big difference in burst) why such a heavy handed approach to "balance" of the operative, I feel like pre 1.1 data and forum outcry are the primary drivers for this.

 

/sigh

[Motro]

Does all this assume the other player is standing there doing nothing

 

Yes. It is also a "combo" people can do now. If it worked, people would already be using it.

[RyanSeacrest]

I agree with what has been said. JS resolve will make or break the spec. OPs argument and math are also invalid.

[voidsurvivor]

We need CC at the beginning of the fight to pull off our opener. We need CC in the sustain to be able to finish (we have no closer and no finisher). If we are using our In-Combat CC as our opener then we do not have it available for the finisher.

 

This. Of course, BW disagrees and decides to nerf our cc. No one trinkets out of a 1.5 sec k/b, they will all save it for our only stun.

[Attaraxia]

I LOVE the clear line between people who actually read, and people who just looked at the numbers and said "NO NOT WHAT I WANT TO HEAR"

 

I was, as i stated many times, speaking of the ideal case. After all, the ideal case is what the nerf cries were all about. "Operative just opened on me while I was at half health and crit everything for max damage and had max buffs and I didn't have my CC break up or any allies around so nerf them they killed me before I could fight back!" So, I returned fire in kind.

 

Fact is, on our current opener, we can eat a CC break before our second move gets off. Our target is then immune to all stuns until long after they've had time to escape or kill us.

 

Now, we have longer to do damage, and if you CC break our first stun, we can still stun you with the second and escape to reset the fight (which is our only real option NOW if we eat a CC break. It's just harder because the target is immune to anything that could pull them off of us.)

 

that's the point of the post. We now have LONGER to hurt you. That of course means we can hurt you more (thank you geniuses for pointing that out. nobody except you saw that, I'm quite sure). We also have options when you CC-break us that we didn't have before. JS was just too convenient in its previous state. Now, however, it is a clearly bad talent, and we will need other (more complex, but better) opening attacks.

[neurosisxeno]

No, people read the post, I even crushed the math. Your ideal situation would require Backstab on a shorter Cooldown, a larger Energy Pool, FB not to break on damage, and your target to be brain damaged. It's not so much ideal is laughable. If you wanted you could do the same setup currently, and it would amount to more Damage, more DPS, more D/CD, and more D/Energy. But it still requires the target to be completely incompetent, which just won't always be the case.

[Attaraxia]

So I decided to double-check and apply logic to your own math--which btw, is terrible--and tell the actual story. I used all your own numbers (which I doubt are accurate) to prove the point. Here you go;

 

Current Rotation:

HS + AB -> Shiv -> BS + AB -> LC

2434 + 1576 -> 1534 -> 1617 + 1576 -> 1545

Total Damage: 10282

 

There's your first mistake, you dropped one of the damage totals to make it seems like less damage than it really was. When I add them up correctly it's already creeping up on your total damage. Now the post 1.1.1 Numbers of the same rotation;

1947 + 1576 -> 1534 -> 1617 + 1576 -> 1545

Total Damage: 9795

 

Keep in mind this is all pre-mitigation, and with the ArP from AB nerfed, will likely widen the difference. Then there's the fact that the AB DoT is being rolled into the damage of attacks it's coupled with, which makes modelling the DPS for comparisons sake even harder. Oh, and we are Now lets add up your proposed rotation post 1.1.1;

 

HS + AB -> DB -> Shiv -> BS+AB -> LC

1947 + 1576 -> 472 -> 1534 -> 1617 + 1576 -> 1545

Total Damage: 10267

 

As we can see already, having to throw a DB in just to make up for the lost damage--assuming JS doesn't still fill resolve and make them immune to the stun--is quite a waste of a GCD. If we compare the damage per GCD of the original rotation as it stands (10282 / 4 GCD's) we sit on 2570.5 D/GCD. With the amended version, it drops a hefty 20% to 2053.4 D/GCD (10267 / 5 GCD's). Now, let's compare your "proposed" rotation;

 

HS + AB -> DB -> Shiv -> BS + AB -> LC -> FB -> EP -> BS

1947 + 1576 -> 472 -> 1534 -> 1617 + 1576 -> 1545 -> 0 -> 1922 -> 1617

Total Damage: 13806

 

So, for starters, you are eating substantially more GCD's--8 to be precise. There are a number of anomalies with this that should be mentioned. For starters, you throw FB in there... 1 GCD after refreshing AB's DoT. FB breaks on damage, so odds are this really will do nothing other than waste a GCD and possibly interrupt them at the expense of one of your most powerful CC affects. Then there's the final BS thrown in there, assuming you did everything correctly and strung the moves together, you would get to it 4.5 seconds after your preceding BS, or roughly halfway INTO IT'S CD. I modeled the damage for it just to prove a point, but that BS cannot actually happen since you would have to wait up to 4.5 seconds after placing EP to activate it. Oh, and you'd have to be behind them, which would be nearly impossible since at this point AB has broken FB, EP has gone off, and you still don't have BS off CD... but, let's look at the numbers;

 

13806 / 8 GCD = 1725.75 D/GCD

 

So your rotation does less damage per GCD used. Let's compare Damage Per Energy Cost as I get ready to point out yet another flaw;

 

Current Rotation: HS (17) + AB (13) -> Shiv (15) -> BS (0) + AB (13) -> LC (15)

Total Energy: 73

Damage Per Energy: 140.85

 

Your Rotation: HS (17) + AB (13) -> DB (10) -> Shiv (15) -> BS (0) + AB (13) -> LC (15) -> FB (10) -> EP (20) -> Impossible BS (0)

Total Energy: 113

Damage Per Energy: 122.18

 

So as I mentioned, Energy was a flaw. I'm not sure if you strung all these together you'd be able to fit all the moves in since EP has an extremely high 20 Energy Cost, and you need that extra FB + DB at 10 Energy a piece. So your rotation is worse in terms of D/GCD and D/E, features impossible strings of abilities given CD's and possible Energy Restrictions, and wastes numerous abilities that could be better used elsewhere. It's in no way better.

 

and you had such potential.

 

For starters, I dropped a number out of my initial calculation by mistake, not intentionally. Bravo for your assumption, but mistake is mistake, and will be corrected.

 

Second, you've written a truly impressive study in missing the point. A stunned person doesn't care much about how much D/E or D/GCD I do. All a stunned person cares about is the fact that they can't stop me from hurting them. That's why there were so many complains about HS, after all. To go a step further, I don't much care about my D/E or D/GCD either. I care about killing the person I've elected to kill.

 

Thirdly, Operatives aren't about staying power. Any operative could have told you that a thousand times over, so I'm not going to get into WHY. I'm just going to point out that blowing several 1 and 2-minute cooldowns to kill someone and get away alive is... pretty much what we're there for. We kill the high-priority target, and then run away. We don't add much to team battles as concealment. We're gankers. Maximizing our ability to kill before you can fight back is how we succeed. That means buffs, consumables, cooldowns... etc.

 

Lastly, (and this one isn't entirely directed at you) players who could react in time to push us away during the opening gap before debilitate, or during the gap between the last lacerate and the flashbang (which we could always eliminate by simply... NOT lacerating) are the players who have been escaping us through quick thinking and adaptation NOW.

 

Literally, we lose nothing this patch except for an extremely simplistic playstyle that was never our best choice in the first place. My prediction is that those of us who adapt to the situation will improve from these 'nerfs'.

 

At least until they nerf debilitate.

[Sprigum]

that's the point of the post. We now have LONGER to hurt you. That of course means we can hurt you more (thank you geniuses for pointing that out. nobody except you saw that, I'm quite sure). We also have options when you CC-break us that we didn't have before. JS was just too convenient in its previous state. Now, however, it is a clearly bad talent, and we will need other (more complex, but better) opening attacks.

 

You're seriously mental if you think killing someone in 15 seconds or whatever the hell number you "mathed" out (OH wow guys! He can do middle school mathz!) is better than killing them in 5-6 seconds.

 

I'm not saying 5-6 second kills are balanced, I'm saying that 5-6 second kills are better than 15 second kills.

 

By logical reasoning I'm sure you'll agree that making something worse cannot in any way, shape, or form make it better at the same time. There is no mythical magic "rotation" that is going to net results.

 

Here's the facts, since you're reading comprehension is a little lacking:

 

- Our Opener lost 20% of it's DMG.

- All our attacks after opener now have 20% less Armor Pentration.

[neurosisxeno]

For starters, I dropped a number out of my initial calculation by mistake, not intentionally. Bravo for your assumption, but mistake is mistake, and will be corrected.

 

Funny that it reinforced your point.

 

Second, you've written a truly impressive study in missing the point. A stunned person doesn't care much about how much D/E or D/GCD I do. All a stunned person cares about is the fact that they can't stop me from hurting them. That's why there were so many complains about HS, after all. To go a step further, I don't much care about my D/E or D/GCD either. I care about killing the person I've elected to kill.

 

You described an ideal situation, which would require the person to eat every stun, and not react at all. In PvP this just doesn't happen. When people get stunned, they immediately either Break it, or spam a knockback/shield ability so once their stun ends they can get some distance on the person attacking them.

 

I addressed it from a pure damage perspective, since you claimed it was a buff--which it's clearly not. The rotation you mentioned does less damage in a given time than most alternatives. I would imagine plugging Overload Shots in there would be better than FB -> EP -> Impossible BS.

 

Thirdly, Operatives aren't about staying power. Any operative could have told you that a thousand times over, so I'm not going to get into WHY. I'm just going to point out that blowing several 1 and 2-minute cooldowns to kill someone and get away alive is... pretty much what we're there for. We kill the high-priority target, and then run away. We don't add much to team battles as concealment. We're gankers. Maximizing our ability to kill before you can fight back is how we succeed. That means buffs, consumables, cooldowns... etc.

 

Exactly! That's why nerfing their opening is a serious blow. They cannot sustain damage... at all. What chance do we have with lowered damage across the board of being able to pick off ball carriers/high priority targets/stragglers now? The nerf cancels out the basic premise of the class.

 

Lastly, (and this one isn't entirely directed at you) players who could react in time to push us away during the opening gap before debilitate, or during the gap between the last lacerate and the flashbang (which we could always eliminate by simply... NOT lacerating) are the players who have been escaping us through quick thinking and adaptation NOW.

 

I agree. But those players were already winning, soon they will be winning with ease, and just laughing at how sad operatives are.

 

Literally, we lose nothing this patch except for an extremely simplistic playstyle that was never our best choice in the first place. My prediction is that those of us who adapt to the situation will improve from these 'nerfs'.

 

There will always be better players, but you can only compensate for so much. Without a gap closer Concealment is severely limited as a primarily melee class. If you're going to require the class to mix in ranged abilities, why wouldn't they just play Lethality?

 

At least until they nerf debilitate.

 

They have no justification for doing so since every other class gets a 4 second stun to our 2 second stun.

[Taliknor]

Energy pool is negligible on account that ideal is currently based from the start position and not sometime during the pvp match.

 

Adrenal probe + stim prior to concealment will solve the majority of the energy crises.

 

As well, the stabby-kaboom is the least beneficial combo rotation. As stated, they'll likely end up out of range prior to a full rotation ergo pray to the sith overlords and they'll pop something, while giving a mild whine that you are so far below them that they don't even know why they try to help you.

 

An alternate route is to accept death and go backstab/shiv/prob/Cloak/HS/Shield

 

or HS/backstab/shiv/del/kabloueh/cloak/hs.

[Attaraxia]

Funny that it reinforced your point.

 

That makes it intentional. Your logic is flawless. /saracasm

 

You described an ideal situation, which would require the person to eat every stun, and not react at all. In PvP this just doesn't happen. When people get stunned, they immediately either Break it, or spam a knockback/shield ability so once their stun ends they can get some distance on the person attacking them.

 

Yes thank you for proving that you did not read anything I said. This makes my job infinitely easier. Rather than reply to this here, I'm just going to direct you to... well, everything I've posted so far.

 

I addressed it from a pure damage perspective, since you claimed it was a buff--which it's clearly not. The rotation you mentioned does less damage in a given time than most alternatives. I would imagine plugging Overload Shots in there would be better than FB -> EP -> Impossible BS.

 

Now you're just raving. I stated quite clearly that the only time frame I care about is the one beginning with my attack and ending with my target's death. How long that takes is irrelevant as long as I finish alive, and he finishes dead. The cost in cooldowns is also irrelevant.

 

Exactly! That's why nerfing their opening is a serious blow. They cannot sustain damage... at all. What chance do we have with lowered damage across the board of being able to pick off ball carriers/high priority targets/stragglers now? The nerf cancels out the basic premise of the class.

 

One does not 'pick off' a ball carrier unless they are alone, at which point you are ganking and everything I said applies. One picks off primary targets and stragglers exactly as we always have. The only change is that we now have control over the fight, which we didn't have beyond the first 3 seconds previous to 1.1.1.

 

You seem to miss this point every time I say it, so I'll bold it for you.

 

When it comes to control in PvP, more = increased good.

 

I agree. But those players were already winning, soon they will be winning with ease, and just laughing at how sad operatives are.

 

I disagree. With increased control, I won't have to massively out-gear my targets to kill it within a three-second window. I'll have a much longer opening in which to kill, and will therefore have a much higher chance of actually killing said target.

 

There will always be better players, but you can only compensate for so much. Without a gap closer Concealment is severely limited as a primarily melee class. If you're going to require the class to mix in ranged abilities, why wouldn't they just play Lethality?

 

I require nothing. I simply suggest that you use everything available to you. Would you chase a target beyond melee range and not shoot your gun or throw grenades just because you're specced primarily as a melee? Seems a bit foolish to me.

 

They have no justification for doing so since every other class gets a 4 second stun to our 2 second stun.

 

We had a 3-second stun from a high-tier talent that we opened every fight with fill the resolve bar instantly. Now we'll have a 4-second stun that we'll open every fight with that doesn't fill the resolve bar. You do the math.

 

You can make the case that 1.5 seconds of time to counter us is open, but I don't see any reason to assume that surprise + reaction time + latency + enemy GCD will be less than 1.5 seconds in the majority of cases. If you're going to say that in high-competition play a person would react that fast, don't bother. Nobody will take a concealment operative into such, rendering the situation irrelevant.

[Arrys]

I keep finding no end of irony to this.

 

ataraxia [at″ah-rak´se-ah] (Gr.)

serenity, calmness, peace of mind.

[Attaraxia]

I keep finding no end of irony to this.

 

ataraxia [at″ah-rak´se-ah] (Gr.)

serenity, calmness, peace of mind.

 

If i don't seem calm to you, your perception of calmness is lacking

[Taliknor]

^_^

 

The origional poster is also correct in stating that his numbers doesn't matter. As stated, Operatives deal with what's left of life. Half way to death - or from; the Operative is it's function. Finish it.

Edited January 24, 2012 by Taliknor

[LoneXS]

First things first kudos on spending a fair amount of time writing all that up, its nice to see someone taking the glass half full approach. Now the negative, its almost completely useless. Our class and how we perform is entirely based on circumstances, the nerf has in all respects reduced our dps regardless of how you look at it. That was it's intention and they did a great job.

 

However what people don't realise is that it really hasn't hurt us that much at all in PVP. Granted tanks will take a few extra shots but sorcs will still go down in 5 hits or less, same for other agents or snipers assuming your geared up. The loss of KB on hidden strike did suck but with all the ability delay I had major issues landing stuff on my victim as it is. It also means I have two points spare to pop into the stealth detection talent which has been really fun with all the fotm assassins/shadows running around.

 

What really amuses me is that people are already stating that its not enough... So I'm pretty confident this won't be the end of it by a long shot. There will be more nerfs fairly soon, scrubs will never be happy with stealth gankers in SWTOR and it seems Bioware only listens to the crowd. I expect hidden strike will lose more damage and I also expect backstab will be reduced aswell seeing as it is our second hardest hitting ability.

[thecoffeecup]

theres nothing stopping you doing your second scenario RIGHT NOW. and doing MORE DAMAGE BECAUSE HS AND ARMOR PEN ARE BEING NERFED

 

Thank you! I thought everyone had gone crazy.

 

Besides, the OP also seems to be forgetting the fact that the armor penetration buff is going to be used all the time in PvE.

[Arrys]

If i don't seem calm to you, your perception of calmness is lacking

 

you are definitely calm end result might be better served by a variant of eris or discordia however.