Marauder Feedback

[getdownsb]

The Marauder has two primary uses.

 

1. Predation

 

Predation is extremely underrated and underused by most marauders. It is essentially a legal speedhack for your group and gives a nice defensive buff. The tree that takes the best advantage of this is annihilation. The short fuse ability allows the marauder to act as a fury battery and can go from 1-30 fury by expending 8 rage (8 sweeping slash). Combined with defensive forms the marauder should be able to use predation for their group for the majority of most fights.

 

2. Predation

 

Yes, that is it folks. Predation. Pretty much everything else about the class is a gimmick and/or an inferior version of what another class can do. There are plenty of things about the marauder that look good on paper, in practice it doesn't pan out. Sure that is not 100% accurate, the marauder is ok at pressuring a merc healer and making them turtle. You'll never kill them but they won't be able to heal their team.

 

Damage: The marauder does no more damage then any ranged DPS class, and in most practical cases does a lot less. This is because the marauder is a melee class and is required to put themselves at far greater risk then a ranged class to do damage. Thus they are going to be focused more often, have less uptime, be forced to go defensive and dis-engage more often. Sure the class is good at smashing bads and low levels, but if everything is equal (skill/gear/numbers) the marauder is inferior in nearly every way to any of the ranged dps classes.

 

Healing: We have little and what we do have is not an effective means of self or group support. Not only that but we do not have enough damage or debuffs to enable us to kill a healer. You will never be able to output enough burst to kill an operative healer before they escape into stealth. A sorcerer healer has the ability to kite the marauder nearly indefinitely while doing dot damage and channeled damage. During the brief moments of contact from the marauders charge a sorcerer can easily go defensive, out heal the marauders damage and re-open the gap with knockbacks and sprint. The merc healer does not have the ability to kite like the sorcerer does, however they have incredible single target heals, far more powerful then the marauders single target dps and great passive defenses. You will be able to force a merc healer to turtle, however you will never kill them.

 

Utility: The only utility that the marauder offers that another class can not bring to the table is predation. Don't get me wrong, predation is amazing. However that being our only real use is quite limiting and easily opens the door for debate as to if our slot in the group could be better used.

 

Again, this is all in the case of everything being equal. A marauder can dominate any other class if there is a big enough skill, gear, numerical, or group composition disparity. A lot of people see this occur on a fairly regular basis and come to the conclusion that marauders are a deadly class in the right hands. However the truth is that in these circumstances every class preforms exceptionally well and appears to be a dominating class.

 

Issues:

Survivability. This is mainly an issue in the context of many vs. many. In order to put dps on the target the marauder must put themselves in a position of disadvantage. In PvP this means being the lone red name surrounded by several enemies and being stunlocked, debuffed and focus fired. In PvE this means putting yourself in a position to take AoE damage and mob based mechanics.

 

Damage Ouput. If allowed to stay on target the marauder does similar damage to most ranged classes. However it does not have the burst potential of the operative or assassin burst classes. It does not have the sustained high yield damage of the turret classes (merc). The problem is that the marauder will never be in this ideal situation. The techinical requirements for outputing damage by the marauder are significantly greater then any other class both from a rotation/priority standpoint, a situational (facing and melee range) stand point and a skill management standpoint (ui responsiveness, server - client sync).

 

Hard counter. The marauder has several hard counters, yet it is the hard counter to no other class. Any sorc build can kite the marauder indefinitely and should never die to one in any situation where everything is equal. The burst classes of operative and assassin are also hard counters to the marauder, they are both stealth based classes and can use that mechanic to avoid the marauders defensive cooldowns then output far more burst dps then the marauder can resulting in a quick end to the fight.

 

In conclusion, the marauder is essentially a gimmick class. It has some utility that lets it fill a "bard" roll however that utility is fairly limited and difficult to take advantage of. This utility is also disguised behind the guise of a class that appears to be a warrior class with duel wielding, the guise of offensive capability and intent. In practice the offensive capabilities of the marauder are sub-par and the class relies on having a skill/gear/numerical/group composition advantage over their opponent in order to be effective in an offensive roll. The marauder also does not have the sustainability to be an offensive threat because of the amount of incoming damage, cc and debuffs it will receive whenever it goes offensive.

 

Thank you, have a nice day.

[Foxcolt]

Meh, I think it's a decent write up defining some of the weaknesses perceived by the OP.

 

The problem is that OP states "all things being equal", since OP does not have any proof of the conclusions he/she made..all of this pretty much dissolves into being purely opinion based and sadly doesn't prove anything as far as the state of marauders.

[EasymodeX]

Oh, I get it. We need to support threads like this so that we don't get nerfed. Gotcha, *wink wink*.

[getdownsb]

Meh, I think it's a decent write up defining some of the weaknesses perceived by the OP.

 

The problem is that OP states "all things being equal", since OP does not have any proof of the conclusions he/she made..all of this pretty much dissolves into being purely opinion based and sadly doesn't prove anything as far as the state of marauders.

 

I agree with that. I don't think I have the tools to be purely objective about it but I'm open to suggestions. It is my opinion but I don't know what else there is to go by, so yeah, the OP is my opinion which is formulated from taking the class to valor 60 and playing for 3 weeks or so with full champion gear and a couple battlemaster gear pieces.

[EasymodeX]

My opinion is that Marauders are the swiftest bringers of pain across the galaxy.

 

The only thing stopping them are UI and client-server sync issues.

 

Oh, and Gore needs to be taken off the GCD, probably with a lowered rage cost / refunded rage from Enraged Slash.

 

A more coherent / less buggy resolve system would also be most convenient.

 

That's all.

Edited January 23, 2012 by EasymodeX

[getdownsb]

My opinion is that Marauders are the swiftest bringers of pain across the galaxy.

 

The only thing stopping them are UI and client-server sync issues.

 

Oh, and Gore needs to be taken off the GCD, probably with a lowered rage cost / refunded rage from Enraged Slash.

 

A more coherent / less buggy resolve system would also be most convenient.

 

That's all.

 

• What is this based on? Warzones? PvE? 50v50 on Ilum?
  
• What is your skill vs. the skill of the people that you're bringing the pain to?
  
• What is your gear vs. the gear of the people that you're bringing the pain to?
  
• What is the group composition vs. the group composition of the people that you're bringing the pain to?
  
• When you're bringing the pain are the numerical odds in your favor or are you at a disadvantage?
  

 

I completely agree that UI and client-server sync issues are abhorrent in this game. I also would agree that it's practically impossible to judge the balance of the marauder class with the current state of the UI, the UI responsiveness, the average FPS performance during combat and the server-client sync (netcode) or lack there of.

 

The resolve system is ok and as you get used to it makes more sense. I would say that it does not seem logical to me that roots and knockbacks do not apply to or respect resolve for melee considering they are effectively the same as a hard stun.

[EasymodeX]

What is this based on? Warzones? PvE? 50v50 on Ilum?

 

All of the above.

 

What is your skill vs. the skill of the people that you're bringing the pain to?

 

I'm probably better than almost everyone else playing the game, but it is also based of playing against the highest caliber premades on Anchorhead.

 

What is your gear vs. the gear of the people that you're bringing the pain to?

 

Full champ, which is better than people with less than full champ, but poorer than people with battlemaster.

 

What is the group composition vs. the group composition of the people that you're bringing the pain to?

 

Solo queue with whoever I get against whoever is on the opposing team.

 

When you're bringing the pain are the numerical odds in your favor or are you at a disadvantage?

 

I make the numerical odds in my favor wherever possible. That is part of battle strategy and tactics.

 

 

The resolve system is ok and as you get used to it makes more sense. I would say that it does not seem logical to me that roots and knockbacks do not apply to or respect resolve for melee considering they are effectively the same as a hard stun.

 

It's not ok when half the roots in the game ignore resolve entirely, and kbs give like 150 resolve compared to similar 500-700 resolve stuns when, as you say, they are the same, plus or minus.

 

There are also subtle issues where resolve does not seem to activate at the appropriate times (or accrue as expected) when 6 CCs are being shot at you. I suspect that some CCs are not registering for resolve accrual (or checks against immunity) if you are already CC'd.

[Hellion_X]

I'll leave my bad comments out of this and instead show you that you are wrong.

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/74902119@N02/

 

Those are all post 1.1 against other 50's as Annihilation. I raid frequently, everything except nightmare modes at the moment, and I can tell you right now I am doing extremely high DPS (more than the ranged) if not the most DPS in the raid group. Of course I can't back that up with screenshots as there is no DPS meter, but it is pretty easy to tell, especially in hardmode flashpoints.

 

I'm not tooting my own horn, but if any of you play Marauder to its fullest potential, you will feel OP.

 

Marauder = GEAR DEPENDENT and HIGH SKILL CAP

Edited January 23, 2012 by Hellion_X

[getdownsb]

I'll leave my bad comments out of this and instead show you that you are wrong.

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/74902119@N02/

 

Those are all post 1.1 against other 50's as Annihilation. I raid frequently, everything except nightmare modes at the moment, and I can tell you right now I am doing extremely high DPS (more than the ranged) if not the most DPS in the raid group. Of course I can't back that up with screenshots as there is no DPS meter, but it is pretty easy to tell, especially in hardmode flashpoints.

 

I'm not tooting my own horn, but if any of you play Marauder to its fullest potential, you will feel OP.

 

Marauder = GEAR DEPENDENT and HIGH SKILL CAP

 

I've put up numbers like that as well post 1.1. However it only happens when we're steam-rolling the other team which IMO is indicative of a major gear and skillcap disparity. I'm not trying to argue but I still stand by my original opinion. If everything is equal the Marauder lacks in nearly every area outside the utility of Predation.

 

Marauder is a bard class that can optionally obliterate groups of bad and low level players.

Edited January 23, 2012 by getdownsb

[DarkRoiku]

I agree with the OP on most points, you have written well and tackled some of our major weaknesses compared to other classes.

 

I believe that marauder is a class that has to be supported to become exceptional in combat (PVP wise). When you play alone or in a 1v1 situation, your chances of success are dramatically reduced compared to the rest of the classes (no healing, no tanking, ect ect) but with clever use of your skills and our abilities, we can overcome such challenges, while the rest of the classes can do it with more ease (Tracert missile/grav round? )

 

Kitting is no problem for a Carnage spec Marauder, and having a good healer with you will give you enough uptime to do the damage.

However these days (especially in Huttball), although we are pure DPS classes, I prefer to play as support. Predetion is the best way to score a goal together with undying rage, saber ward, cloak of pain and ofcourse clever use of force charge.

 

In the end, I enjoy my marauder alot, it fits my game style and I like the fact that marauders are hard to master.

Edited January 23, 2012 by DarkRoiku

[getdownsb]

I agree with the OP on most points, you have written well and tackled some of our major weaknesses compared to other classes.

 

I believe that marauder is a class that has to be supported to become exceptional in combat (PVP wise). When you play alone or in a 1v1 situation, your chances of success are dramatically reduced compared to the rest of the classes (no healing, no tanking, ect ect) but with clever use of your skills and our abilities, we can overcome such challenges, while the rest of the classes can do it with more ease (Tracert missile/grav round? )

 

Kitting is no problem for a Carnage spec Marauder, and having a good healer with you will give you enough uptime to do the damage.

However these days (especially in Huttball), although we are pure DPS classes, I prefer to play as support. Predetation is the best way to score a goal together with undying rage, saber ward, cloak of pain and ofcourse clever use of force charge.

 

In the end, I enjoy my marauder alot, it fits my game style and I like the fact that marauders are hard to master.

 

I agree with everything you are saying. My question is: What class does not excel in those situations? and How does the Marauder preform in comparison to the other classes when they are given the same group dynamics?

[Shakydvs]

I agree with the OP on most points, you have written well and tackled some of our major weaknesses compared to other classes.

 

I believe that marauder is a class that has to be supported to become exceptional in combat (PVP wise). When you play alone or in a 1v1 situation, your chances of success are dramatically reduced compared to the rest of the classes (no healing, no tanking, ect ect) but with clever use of your skills and our abilities, we can overcome such challenges, while the rest of the classes can do it with more ease (Tracert missile/grav round? )

 

Kitting is no problem for a Carnage spec Marauder, and having a good healer with you will give you enough uptime to do the damage.

However these days (especially in Huttball), although we are pure DPS classes, I prefer to play as support. Predetion is the best way to score a goal together with undying rage, saber ward, cloak of pain and ofcourse clever use of force charge.

 

In the end, I enjoy my marauder alot, it fits my game style and I like the fact that marauders are hard to master.

 

^This, if push backs, knock backs etc counted towards the resolve meter then it would actually make a hell of a difference.

[skotish]

Excellent post OP its seem we are a support act that needs its own support ie constant healer attention and buffs galore still love playing it though:) Edited January 23, 2012 by skotish

[Hellion_X]

I've put up numbers like that as well post 1.1. However it only happens when we're steam-rolling the other team which IMO is indicative of a major gear and skillcap disparity. I'm not trying to argue but I still stand by my original opinion. If everything is equal the Marauder lacks in nearly every area outside the utility of Predation.

 

Marauder is a bard class that can optionally obliterate groups of bad and low level players.

 

Those numbers are consistent, I've stopped taking new screenshots because they are. Even if our team is getting farmed in Huttball or by the Republic in those wz, I still throw up the highest numbers. The Republic we do have on our server are equally geared thankfully (server Dark Reaper) and have gained a reputation with them because of it.

 

I doubt I'll be able to change your views on the Marauder, I'm voicing my opinion that I think you are wrong and we're lucky to have so many tools at our disposal.

 

My opinion is that if everything is equal, we still have the advantage in most situations, especially 1v1.

 

To further elaborate, I will respond to your issues you posted:

 

Issues:

Survivability. This is mainly an issue in the context of many vs. many. In order to put dps on the target the marauder must put themselves in a position of disadvantage. In PvP this means being the lone red name surrounded by several enemies and being stunlocked, debuffed and focus fired. In PvE this means putting yourself in a position to take AoE damage and mob based mechanics. We have more survivability than most of the classes at the moment. We have our low cd Cloak of Pain, Saber Ward, Force Camoflauge which is 45 sec lol, Undying Rage also low cd, Predation, Obfuscate (granted it's useless on casters), Force Choke for the 1v1 situations, Intimidating Roar, Disruption and Force Charge if you have another target to fly to if you have to get away. I rarely ever die and if I do it is for a good reason. Our cooldowns are so low that you have over half of those up that I mentioned at any given time. I didn't even mention all the survivability talents we get in each tree. It boggles me why you think we have low survivability. We only melt if we have none of our CDs up.

 

Damage Ouput. If allowed to stay on target the marauder does similar damage to most ranged classes. However it does not have the burst potential of the operative or assassin burst classes. It does not have the sustained high yield damage of the turret classes (merc). The problem is that the marauder will never be in this ideal situation. The techinical requirements for outputing damage by the marauder are significantly greater then any other class both from a rotation/priority standpoint, a situational (facing and melee range) stand point and a skill management standpoint (ui responsiveness, server - client sync). LOL, I will laugh at that one because it is wrong. If we are allowed to stay on target we WILL do more damage than any ranged could pray for. We have unlimited source of damage "fuel" which is our rage. Unlike Merc who has to watch his Heat or Sorc who has to watch his Force, we do not, we have a constant supply for our big hitters. The Marauder has the highest sustained damage of any class and this is how it is designed if we are able to be able on our target 100% of the time, but obviously as a melee class that is always not the case because if it was you would never have said what you did and people would be crying OP about Marauder.

 

Hard counter. The marauder has several hard counters, yet it is the hard counter to no other class. Any sorc build can kite the marauder indefinitely and should never die to one in any situation where everything is equal. The burst classes of operative and assassin are also hard counters to the marauder, they are both stealth based classes and can use that mechanic to avoid the marauders defensive cooldowns then output far more burst dps then the marauder can resulting in a quick end to the fight. Also incorrect. There are better geared Sorcs/Sages on my server and equally skilled, I have ZERO problems steam rolling them. Crippling Slash every time you are in range, they will not kite you. Force Camoflage if you have to. Even Force Charge interrupts their cast. I will agree about the Operative, but ONLY if we don't have our Unleash (cc breaker) on cooldown. If that is up, I pop that, turn and smile as I faceroll their squishyness. We are the hard counter to every class IMO.

Edited January 23, 2012 by Hellion_X

[Dacer]

I'm currently lvling up a Marauder. So I can't comment on what it plays like at 50.

But I've seems many of the issues others points out about the class already, and I'm only lvl 30.

 

Since most of my lvling has been in warzones, I'll keep my comment focused on that.

I've put up some high numbers for my lvl in WZ before... and I can say that almost every time I break the 150-200k mark its only because of a good healer keeping me going while i jump into the fray. And that makes me suspect that maybe be true for others as well.

 

But 1v1 all things being equal

 

I agree almost 100 with the OP even from my limited marauder experience.

 

--- from previous melee MMO experience. ---

 

The only think I can think of to fix the problem on survivability, because thats really what keeps the dps down in any PvE( having to run away, run around, jump back) but for marauder is seems to be more acute, especially given the archtype they were going for with the class. Is to shorten the cool down or extend the refresh time of cloak of pain.

 

Say make it end 9 seconds after no more damage is taken lasting a max of 36 seconds.

 

and increase the talented AoE damage reduction from 30% max ( two points ) to 40% max.

 

And of course... maybe give another CC breaker. But i don't think the Resolve bar is actually working the way its supposed to so when it does it might not be as much an issue.

 

----- granted i dont have any end-game marauder experience but I think that would lend greatly to solving some of the most brought up out down points of the class after the ability delay.

Edited January 23, 2012 by Dacer

[getdownsb]

Those numbers are consistent, I've stopped taking new screenshots because they are. Even if our team is getting farmed in Huttball or by the Republic in those wz, I still throw up the highest numbers. The Republic we do have on our server are equally geared thankfully (server Dark Reaper) and have gained a reputation with them because of it.

 

I doubt I'll be able to change your views on the Marauder, I'm voicing my opinion that I think you are wrong and we're lucky to have so many tools at our disposal.

 

My opinion is that if everything is equal, we still have the advantage in most situations, especially 1v1.

 

The majority seems to be in contradiction to this. Throw up a fraps of one of your matches to humor the curiosity?

Edited January 23, 2012 by getdownsb

[Hellion_X]

I edited my previous post. So incase you missed it, here are my arguments to your original post.

 

Issues:

Survivability. This is mainly an issue in the context of many vs. many. In order to put dps on the target the marauder must put themselves in a position of disadvantage. In PvP this means being the lone red name surrounded by several enemies and being stunlocked, debuffed and focus fired. In PvE this means putting yourself in a position to take AoE damage and mob based mechanics. We have more survivability than most of the classes at the moment. We have our low cd Cloak of Pain, Saber Ward, Force Camoflauge which is 45 sec cd lol, Undying Rage also low cd, Predation, Obfuscate (granted it's useless on casters), Force Choke for the 1v1 situations, Intimidating Roar, Disruption and Force Charge if you have another target to fly to if you have to get away. I rarely ever die and if I do it is for a good reason. Our cooldowns are so low that you have over half of those up that I mentioned at any given time. I didn't even mention all the survivability talents we get in each tree. It boggles me why you think we have low survivability. We only melt if we have none of our CDs up which is not often.

 

On Ilum for example, when there is a huge mob of red and you do charge in, of course you are going to get focused, but that's because you were stupid enough to charge in against that many without proper backup. Any melee who goes balls deep against that many will get torn apart, so there's no argument there. That part sucks about melee, but that's the price you pay, waiting for the correct moment to fly in and lead your team to victory though is always priceless. Being on the front line can be a blast.

 

Damage Ouput. If allowed to stay on target the marauder does similar damage to most ranged classes. However it does not have the burst potential of the operative or assassin burst classes. It does not have the sustained high yield damage of the turret classes (merc). The problem is that the marauder will never be in this ideal situation. The techinical requirements for outputing damage by the marauder are significantly greater then any other class both from a rotation/priority standpoint, a situational (facing and melee range) stand point and a skill management standpoint (ui responsiveness, server - client sync). LOL, I will laugh at that one because it is wrong. If we are allowed to stay on target we WILL do more damage than any ranged could pray for. We have unlimited source of damage "fuel" which is our rage. Unlike Merc who has to watch his Heat or Sorc who has to watch his Force, we do not, we have a constant supply for our big hitters. The Marauder has the highest sustained damage of any class and this is how it is designed if we are able to be able on our target 100% of the time, but obviously as a melee class that is always not the case because if it was you would never have said what you did and people would be crying OP about Marauder.

 

Hard counter. The marauder has several hard counters, yet it is the hard counter to no other class. Any sorc build can kite the marauder indefinitely and should never die to one in any situation where everything is equal. The burst classes of operative and assassin are also hard counters to the marauder, they are both stealth based classes and can use that mechanic to avoid the marauders defensive cooldowns then output far more burst dps then the marauder can resulting in a quick end to the fight. Also incorrect. There are better geared Sorcs/Sages on my server and equally skilled, I have ZERO problems steam rolling them. Crippling Slash every time you are in range, they will not kite you. Force Camoflage if you have to. Even Force Charge interrupts their cast. I will agree about the Operative, but ONLY if we don't have our Unleash (cc breaker) on cooldown. If that is up, I pop that, turn and smile as I faceroll their squishyness. Mercs/Troopers are a joke too, interrupts absolutely own/confuse the hell out of them. We are the hard counter to every class IMO.

Edited January 23, 2012 by Hellion_X

[getdownsb]

I edited my previous post. So incase you missed it, here are my arguments to your original post.

 

Issues:

Survivability. This is mainly an issue in the context of many vs. many. In order to put dps on the target the marauder must put themselves in a position of disadvantage. In PvP this means being the lone red name surrounded by several enemies and being stunlocked, debuffed and focus fired. In PvE this means putting yourself in a position to take AoE damage and mob based mechanics. We have more survivability than most of the classes at the moment. We have our low cd Cloak of Pain, Saber Ward, Force Camoflauge which is 45 sec cd lol, Undying Rage also low cd, Predation, Obfuscate (granted it's useless on casters), Force Choke for the 1v1 situations, Intimidating Roar, Disruption and Force Charge if you have another target to fly to if you have to get away. I rarely ever die and if I do it is for a good reason. Our cooldowns are so low that you have over half of those up that I mentioned at any given time. I didn't even mention all the survivability talents we get in each tree. It boggles me why you think we have low survivability. We only melt if we have none of our CDs up which is not often.

 

On Ilum for example, when there is a huge mob of red and you do charge in, of course you are going to get focused, but that's because you were stupid enough to charge in against that many without proper backup. Any melee who goes balls deep against that many will get torn apart, so there's no argument there. That part sucks about melee, but that's the price you pay, waiting for the correct moment to fly in and lead your team to victory though is always priceless. Being on the front line can be a blast.

 

Damage Ouput. If allowed to stay on target the marauder does similar damage to most ranged classes. However it does not have the burst potential of the operative or assassin burst classes. It does not have the sustained high yield damage of the turret classes (merc). The problem is that the marauder will never be in this ideal situation. The techinical requirements for outputing damage by the marauder are significantly greater then any other class both from a rotation/priority standpoint, a situational (facing and melee range) stand point and a skill management standpoint (ui responsiveness, server - client sync). LOL, I will laugh at that one because it is wrong. If we are allowed to stay on target we WILL do more damage than any ranged could pray for. We have unlimited source of damage "fuel" which is our rage. Unlike Merc who has to watch his Heat or Sorc who has to watch his Force, we do not, we have a constant supply for our big hitters. The Marauder has the highest sustained damage of any class and this is how it is designed if we are able to be able on our target 100% of the time, but obviously as a melee class that is always not the case because if it was you would never have said what you did and people would be crying OP about Marauder.

 

Hard counter. The marauder has several hard counters, yet it is the hard counter to no other class. Any sorc build can kite the marauder indefinitely and should never die to one in any situation where everything is equal. The burst classes of operative and assassin are also hard counters to the marauder, they are both stealth based classes and can use that mechanic to avoid the marauders defensive cooldowns then output far more burst dps then the marauder can resulting in a quick end to the fight. Also incorrect. There are better geared Sorcs/Sages on my server and equally skilled, I have ZERO problems steam rolling them. Crippling Slash every time you are in range, they will not kite you. Force Camoflage if you have to. Even Force Charge interrupts their cast. I will agree about the Operative, but ONLY if we don't have our Unleash (cc breaker) on cooldown. If that is up, I pop that, turn and smile as I faceroll their squishyness. Mercs/Troopers are a joke too, interrupts absolutely own/confuse the hell out of them. We are the hard counter to every class IMO.

 

Your conclusions are valid however you're leaving out the variable that matters. The people you're fighting are not very good. I know this because I have said the exact same things as you just did. Eventually I started running into good players and I started dueling them over and over. While your conclusions are accurate in respect to the mean player base, they are inaccurate with my qualification: everything being equal.

 

Point 1: You rarely die in warzones, which I feel is accurate. Ganted you rarely die because you're constantly breaking away from the fight when you are not at a massive: skill/gear/numerical/composition advantage thus you're not doing a whole lot to affect the outcome of the match.

 

The second part of that is inaccurate in respect to rarely dying on Ilum. We always die on Ilum, unless we do not engage or you have a significant skill/gear/numerical/composition advantage. You say "wait until the perfect time to rush in and lead your team to victory". I say that you're "waiting until you're team is starting to steam-roll them, charge in and mop up". In which case it would not matter if you were present for the fight or not, the outcome is already determined.

 

Point 2: Sorc's lightning actually has a positive force return. If they ever put in target dummies and combat logs and/or damage meeter you will see this. BH Arsenal can output far more damage concerning the debuffs they receive from tracer missile and the fact that it actually has a heat return as well. The only case that they are going to lose in dps vs a marauder is if you parse damage over several minutes. Fights do not last that long, in effective terms the dps output of marauder pales in comparison to either sorc or tracer missile spammers. The effective damage of the Marauder in burst terms is non-existent in comparison to concealment or deception.

 

Point 3: You are playing terrible sorcs. It is quite easy for them to kite you and if they can not do so they are playing/geared/spec'ed improperly. This isn't even an argument, it is simply a fact. Even if you duel one and they allow you to open from melee range you will not stick to them, unless they are drooling.

 

Stun > Sprint away > Dot + Snare + Channeled damage (so you charge or cloak and close) Shield > Purge > Knockback + root > Strafe kite away while > Snare again > Resume channeled dot + snare (so you charge or cloak again) Knockback + root again > snare > Pop alacrity relic > Heal to full health > DoT + Snare + Channeled damage > stun/sprint/lol. Rinse, repeat, Marauder will never be in range enough to do significant damage, marauder has no self heals and thus will die 100% of the time.

[DarkRoiku]

We might have all these defence mechanics, but when they are on CD, there is nothing we can do.

And believe me 1 minute in PVP is long.

 

Example,

 

Fighting a sage 1v1 on Ilum.

I open with force cloak to "surprise" him. I start to do my Rotation (Batt assault -> Crippling Slash -> Assault -> Gore -> Masacre -> Scream) by the time I finish this rotation (while interuppting the spell) the sage was barely scratched due to shield and I was around 70%.

As the shield is loose, sage knockbacks and continue to dmg, I force charge hit my saber ward and continue to DPS, sage sprints only to stop him with deadly throw.

Anyway to cut the long story short, although this battle was on my favour, the sage could get me to 10% of my life while he was still on 40%+. Thank god to my undying rage and some well placed interupts and force choke + Deadly Throw (love the combo to finish off healers ) I killed him in time, with me remaining with 3% HP and dying from a lingering DoT. -.-

(They really should remove out of combat healing abilities to be interupted on DoT dmg...)

 

My conclussion,

I started a fight which from the beggining it looked like it was in my favour, popped almost all my cooldowns to be able to stay alive (without them I would be dead in seconds) but yet, the sage with ease managed to get me so low, killing me in the end.

Edited January 24, 2012 by DarkRoiku

[Hellion_X]

Your conclusions are valid however you're leaving out the variable that matters. The people you're fighting are not very good. I know this because I have said the exact same things as you just did. Eventually I started running into good players and I started dueling them over and over. While your conclusions are accurate in respect to the mean player base, they are inaccurate with my qualification: everything being equal.

 

Point 1: You rarely die in warzones, which I feel is accurate. Ganted you rarely die because you're constantly breaking away from the fight when you are not at a massive: skill/gear/numerical/composition advantage thus you're not doing a whole lot to affect the outcome of the match.

 

The second part of that is inaccurate in respect to rarely dying on Ilum. We always die on Ilum, unless we do not engage or you have a significant skill/gear/numerical/composition advantage. You say "wait until the perfect time to rush in and lead your team to victory". I say that you're "waiting until you're team is starting to steam-roll them, charge in and mop up". In which case it would not matter if you were present for the fight or not, the outcome is already determined.

 

Point 2: Sorc's lightning actually has a positive force return. If they ever put in target dummies and combat logs and/or damage meeter you will see this. BH Arsenal can output far more damage concerning the debuffs they receive from tracer missile and the fact that it actually has a heat return as well. The only case that they are going to lose in dps vs a marauder is if you parse damage over several minutes. Fights do not last that long, in effective terms the dps output of marauder pales in comparison to either sorc or tracer missile spammers. The effective damage of the Marauder in burst terms is non-existent in comparison to concealment or deception.

 

Point 3: You are playing terrible sorcs. It is quite easy for them to kite you and if they can not do so they are playing/geared/spec'ed improperly. This isn't even an argument, it is simply a fact. Even if you duel one and they allow you to open from melee range you will not stick to them, unless they are drooling.

 

Stun > Sprint away > Dot + Snare + Channeled damage (so you charge or cloak and close) Shield > Purge > Knockback + root > Strafe kite away while > Snare again > Resume channeled dot + snare (so you charge or cloak again) Knockback + root again > snare > Pop alacrity relic > Heal to full health > DoT + Snare + Channeled damage > stun/sprint/lol. Rinse, repeat, Marauder will never be in range enough to do significant damage, marauder has no self heals and thus will die 100% of the time.

 

You assume I don't know the difference between a good or bad player lol. I'm sorry, but against good players, they still lose to Marauder 1v1. I am Annihilation spec, nobody can kite me. Practically have 3 interrupts because you can use Force Charge at any range with only a 12 sec cd on charge and predation is so easy to have up that it's almost a joke. The other specs will have a harder time against people kiting them, mostly Rage spec as Carnage has a ton of roots.

 

When they put target dummies and dps meters, you will be proven wrong about a Sorc out dps'ing a Marauder. It is pretty laughable you think they do more damage 1v1 right now as it is with both players doing constant dps. BH have the burst over us, as far as sustained, marauder wins that. In both PvE and PvP (PvP because of our toolkit, so easy to shut a BH down).

 

If it was possible, I'd let you choose any sorc and I will duel against them and show you how un-kitable I am in my spec and how squishy they feel under my damage. Marauders have more burst than you think and as Annihilation, they are taking major DoT damage as they try to run.

[EasymodeX]

The majority seems to be in contradiction to this.

 

Most players are bad.

 

What.

 

 

Point 1: You rarely die in warzones, which I feel is accurate. Ganted you rarely die because you're constantly breaking away from the fight when you are not at a massive: skill/gear/numerical/composition advantage thus you're not doing a whole lot to affect the outcome of the match.

 

Except for the part where you ate the entire enemy's team focus fire, offensive cooldowns, and 47 CCs. And they STILL didn't kill you.

 

 

Point 2: Sorc's lightning actually has a positive force return.[...]Fights do not last that long, in effective terms the dps output of marauder pales in comparison to either sorc or tracer missile spammers.

 

Only their channeled lightning retuns force.

 

You're letting them channel?

 

Marauder DPS is 99% instant. The only way to suppress a Marauder is by kiting.

 

Sorcs are squishy as ****. If they are not moving and kiting, they die. A Madness Sorc is rough 1v1 because they optimize for mobile DPS. But that comes at a cost: they have 0 burst.

 

They also get zero benefits from grouping.

 

BH spam is high DPS, but it's also the easiest DPS in the game to shut down hard, constantly. Seriously, the fact that you mention a TRACERLOL at all, combined with a serious lack of understanding of group synergy, screams loudly about your competency at advanced gameplay.

 

 

Example,

 

Fighting a sage 1v1 on Ilum.

I open with force cloak to "surprise" him.

 

This clinches it. You are = most players, with the caveat that you run in a premade and think you're good.

 

I open with force cloak to "surprise" him. I start to do my Rotation (Batt assault -> Crippling Slash -> Assault -> Gore -> Masacre -> Scream)

 

You're CARNAGE spec and you blow cloak at the start?

 

Fail x2.

 

by the time I finish this rotation (while interuppting the spell) the sage was barely scratched due to shield and I was around 70%.

 

And you do jack **** for damage, and apparently didn't pop a relic, and you blew gore at initiation where you had no preloaded rage and the Sage is OBVIOUSLY going to CC you to break contact immediately.

 

Fail x3.

 

AND you blew Crippling Slash when you were Carnage spec (LMAO), instead of throwing down BA-A-Gore-Mass-Scream, with Deadly Throw mid-air on the knockback to suppress his heal ticks, doubling as a root to cut is movement while you cloak the KB+root ...

 

Fail x4.

Edited January 24, 2012 by EasymodeX

[Hellion_X]

Thank you Easymode. I notice there are only few against many who don't understand how to use Marauder properly. There's a reason we are one of the harder classes to play (basing that off the mass population) because we have SO many abilities to work with, which in return gives us the greater advantage over all the other classes.

 

It's almost like rhythm when I play my Marauder. Feels like surgery as I'm cutting them open. We are the OP ones in the right hands.

 

If you are trying your best and still feel like you are not the strongest class in the game, you are doing it wrong. We ARE the strongest class in the game in overall performance and I make that look like a fact. When the rated WZ come around, then it will be proven that Marauder are godlike. You will see a massload of terrible Marauders and then very few extremely high rated ones. Those are the few good ones who know this class.

Edited January 24, 2012 by Hellion_X

[Sayc]

mara is tuff stop trolling plz

[getdownsb]

You assume I don't know the difference between a good or bad player lol. I'm sorry, but against good players, they still lose to Marauder 1v1. I am Annihilation spec, nobody can kite me. Practically have 3 interrupts because you can use Force Charge at any range with only a 12 sec cd on charge and predation is so easy to have up that it's almost a joke. The other specs will have a harder time against people kiting them, mostly Rage spec as Carnage has a ton of roots.

 

You might be able to gap close but you're not going to stick on a good sorc. They're going to re-open the gap right after you close it, every time, and you're going to be on cool down. It's going to take you 2-3 cycles of this to get predation up and in the mean time they're going to be doing damage to you, and will heal to full between every cycle.

 

When they put target dummies and dps meters, you will be proven wrong about a Sorc out dps'ing a Marauder. It is pretty laughable you think they do more damage 1v1 right now as it is with both players doing constant dps. BH have the burst over us, as far as sustained, marauder wins that. In both PvE and PvP (PvP because of our toolkit, so easy to shut a BH down).

 

Hey, don't get me wrong, I'd love to be proven wrong here. I just don't think it's going to happen, even on a static target dummy. In a fight with a sorc where you're constantly being kited, it's even less likely.

 

If it was possible, I'd let you choose any sorc and I will duel against them and show you how un-kitable I am in my spec and how squishy they feel under my damage. Marauders have more burst than you think and as Annihilation, they are taking major DoT damage as they try to run.

 

You're fighting Sorcs that don't use purge/cleanse? And you still think that they are not bad players?

 

To both you and Easymode I still propose: Show me the money. You say that you faceroll people when everything is equal on a regular basis. Fire up fraps or one of the several free options such as afterburner for 10 minutes and show us you can actually do it in practice instead of in forum wars.

 

Again I know this is impossible in the lolgameforums but I'm not trying to start an argument over right/wrong for the sake of entertainment. I actually love the melee play-style and I am naturally a super aggressive player, which I felt that the marauder fit well with. If there is some major hole in my approach I'd personally love to realize it and fix it, but after a month of tweaking, tuning, gearing, adjusting, trying different things I keep running into the same final brick wall that my OP describes. The fact that there is literally one other marauder on my entire server that I feel is even a solid player with the class IMO indicates that the class has issues but the top 0.01% of players are simply that much better then anyone else and they would dominate with ANY class no matter what issues it has.

 

Quite frankly with BioWare's SOP thus far I doubt the majority of issues that players have will be addressed in the next 6 months, possibly ever. So figuring out how to work around it myself is likely the only alternative to un-subbing or re-rolling. Both of which I'd rather not do as A) I love Star Wars and B) I like the Marauder class, that's why I picked it in the first place.

Edited January 24, 2012 by getdownsb

[Hellion_X]

Your argument seems to leaning towards only PvP vs Sorcs now. The good ones TRY to use purge or cleanse and tend to only do it when their sprint or shield is up. Our Crippling Slash only cost 2 rage, slows them 60% and lasts 12 seconds. They have to constantly cleanse if they want that off, between Crippling Slash and the talented rupture slow, they don't get very far.

 

Our gear plays a bigger role than you think too. I haven't lost to a Sorc in a very long time. Before I had any champion pieces they gave me a much harder time. Now that I have the same gear, they are amazingly easy and I love facing them. No Sorcs will beat a good Annihilation marauder no matter how much you try to argue it.

 

I have never used fraps or the other one you mentioned. I recently got a new computer, so I will look into doing that as I have thought about streaming now as well. When I have either of those up I will PM you and make a post on the marauder forums, maybe it will bring faith back into Marauder players who don't have it.