Rippitup Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 I for one find that OPs/Scoundrels do in fact need some sort of nerf. Where and how have already been decided by the devs, and while I do not agree with them, I am not in a place to overwrite their decisions. Simply put we do too much damage in a short amount of time...im okay with admitting that. I ask only that people take an honest look at our out of stealth combat abilities and admit that we are subpar in that area. Lacking mobility, gap closers, knockbacks, heavy armor, and sustained damage create the need for a class that can get in and out of comabt quickly and dispatch key targets quickly. I am ok with seeing a nerf to the length of our opening stun. I would hope however that bioware adjusts the amount of resolve that it creates. I dont think 1.5 secs is the proper amount of time that it should stun a player, given several other abilities in the game stun you for similar amounts of time. I would much rather see our opener reduced to a 2 second stun to allow for some sort of wiggle room given how jumpy the game is in pvp. I dont know how many times I have opened on someone just to see them 3 ft behind me on the ground, or to see them "getting up" 5-10 ft in front of me... I would be excited to see our opener generate half a resolve bar, and im sure that given the length of 1.5 seconds we could agree that half a resolve bar seems reasonable. If this is the case we could actually use our second stun in a more tacticle and offensive way instead of using it defensively as a getaway or as a stun for when we simply cannot get out of combat and back into stealth. (which by the way needs to be looked at) I think the armor pen reduction is silly given the fact that the heavy armor users have so much utility with knockbacks, heals, and grapples. Someone needs to be able to stand up to them besides casters. Any class, given equal gearing should be able to take on another class. I dont know how many times I as an Operative opened on someone just to have them "trinket" my stun and work me. Now im not saying I cant defend myself...they dont come out unscathed by any stretch of the imagination, but im not really a threat as much as an annoyance. I have seen the videos of ops/scoundrels destroying people...at this point I expect anyone that pvp's a little more than casually have seen it as well. Most of those videos had consumable stacking, which has since been fixed. I ask you as a player to take an honest look at how "fast" you claim to be dying. In my whole time playing, I have not once killed a player in my 3 second stun naturally. I have always had some sort of input from my team, relics, red buff, or adrenals. I do think we need to reduce our burst, but not without some sort of compensation to our survivability, sustained dps, mobility, or our ability to close gaps. You have to give some to take some. Otherwise you are neutering the class. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghingis Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 Here's the real reason for this nerf: Bioware wants more time to fix the stuff in the game that is broken. There are a few things mind you. Everything from PvP to PvE has major issues in one way or another. Bugs, loot system not working, no UI customizations. They need to keep the subscribers happy enough to stay until the next major patch. So, how to do this? You cater to the masses. Right now there is a HUGE majority of the players rolling Sorcerers. The Ops nerf at this time, is only to keep them happy enough to keep paying, until the game is fixed. I think we will see a buff again, later on. When balance is the real issue. Think about it: The adrenal/buff stacking was the major issue. Why the numbers were so big. That is fixed.I've read stories of 450 exp tanks getting taken down in 2 seconds. Just not real - NOT without other people shooting/damaging that player too. But the ops (right there behind him) gets the "blame". No combat log - so no proof that there were other nukers as well.IF Bioware did this for balance purposes; they would have fixed the brackets (done) and the adrenals (done) and tried it out like that first for a few weeks. But this is only to cater to the masses. No balance here, only greed. I agree, some sort of adjustment was necessary. The dmg IS a tad high; but this nerf is a total knee-jerk just to please the masses. Like I've said so many times on this forum: People that are getting nuked down while stunned by the ops are getting nuked by a whole friggin team. Ops gets the blame for being the one stunning and surprising with that nasty stealth. Happens in every mmo. Usually the developer knows this and handles it well. Mythic doesn't; as seen with Warhammer too. Need to keep people playing? 5% Ops 60% Sorcs Screw the Ops! Oh yeah, the PTR's; The nerf is there now for testing. So feel free to Start a new character - LEVEL IT TO 50 - Get PvP gear from the ridiculous bags - and try it for yourselves! LOL Mythic - Maybe make a character copy function for your "so called PTR"? Still without consumable stacking your damage in an opener is way too much damage, thats just a fact, stop trying to defend or deny this, just makes you look extremely dumb. You do too much damage on well geared targets aswell, and therefore you need a nerf, simple as that. Just imagine if they would release smaller scale PvP with the current state of Operatives, would just be Operative/Operative/Healer dominating everything because there is just no way to survive that damage, seeing as a solo Operative can get a well geared target down below 20% in the initial opener. I do not need to play a class to understand that me getting opened on and not being able to move til im pretty much already dead, is broken. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Choppaman Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 If you shut an "op" Class down, the only thing it will do is move the hate from one Class to another. You know it. And I know it. We've seen this happen too many times on too many games to think otherwise. Being overpowered is a dirty job, but someone has got to do it, right? The hatred of those specs was justified. No one likes being bursted down in seconds, and especially while they have absolutely no control of their character. I pay money to play this game, not to sit there and be fodder for morons that have to play a training wheels spec that lets them stun and 2 shot because they can't manage more than 3 buttons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sw_dragon Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 Honestly i dont think any class should be getting nerfs. Its waaaay too early to be heading down that slippery slope Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lushbits Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 Still without consumable stacking your damage in an opener is way too much damage, thats just a fact, stop trying to defend or deny this, just makes you look extremely dumb. 3528 crit on similarly geared played is too much? Really? REALLY!? This is pre-nerf. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J1su-tMdKJE Vid to prove it. The other guys has 450 exp, the operative has 400. Can't wait to have that number reduced by 20%. People are pulling these 8K crits out of their asses. Just not possible without buff stacking. Fine, nerf some of it. Like we all say, nerf us. Just don't wreck the entire tree! It's too friggin much! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newsinz Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 (edited) Being overpowered is a dirty job, but someone has got to do it, right? The hatred of those specs was justified. No one likes being bursted down in seconds, and especially while they have absolutely no control of their character. I pay money to play this game, not to sit there and be fodder for morons that have to play a training wheels spec that lets them stun and 2 shot because they can't manage more than 3 buttons. Yeah because Sorcs don't kill people just as fast? seriously... I agree that there should have been a small adjustment to the damage. But this was overboard. Not only do we have a hard time keeping up with EVERYONE else now, we still have to deal with the fact that our "shields" don't last as long as others and we get smoked by just about anything out there. We are glass canons. We have worse ability delay on the republic side. This last patch made some things better but there were numerous times I tried shielding and failed, Healing and failed etc etc. I really hate Nerfs that's the easy way out. How about balancing? That's a new thought to the devs. And don't try and say that's what they did because its pretty obvious that isn't the case. *edit* This is in no way me trying to belittle my OPS Brothers. I just have more experience on my Republic toon then my Op toon. Edited January 25, 2012 by Newsinz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghingis Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 Yeah because Sorcs don't kill people just as fast? seriously... I agree that there should have been a small adjustment to the damage. But this was overboard. Not only do we have a hard time keeping up with EVERYONE else now, we still have to deal with the fact that our "shields" don't last as long as others and we get smoked by just about anything out there. We are glass canons. We have worse ability delay on the republic side. This last patch made some things better but there were numerous times I tried shielding and failed, Healing and failed etc etc. I really hate Nerfs that's the easy way out. How about balancing? That's a new thought to the devs. And don't try and say that's what they did because its pretty obvious that isn't the case. This is where people go wrong though. Yes, a Sorcerer might be able to kill me just as quickly, but during this I can atleast CONTROL my character, and actively work towards not being killed that quickly. You CANT do this vs an Operative. I dont even mind your high damage aslong as I can react to it and actually play my character, but right now I am stuck in a full CC whilst I just see my hp fly away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkMayu Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 This is where people go wrong though. Yes, a Sorcerer might be able to kill me just as quickly, but during this I can atleast CONTROL my character, and actively work towards not being killed that quickly. You CANT do this vs an Operative. I dont even mind your high damage aslong as I can react to it and actually play my character, but right now I am stuck in a full CC whilst I just see my hp fly away. Agree with this! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newsinz Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 This is where people go wrong though. Yes, a Sorcerer might be able to kill me just as quickly, but during this I can atleast CONTROL my character, and actively work towards not being killed that quickly. You CANT do this vs an Operative. I dont even mind your high damage aslong as I can react to it and actually play my character, but right now I am stuck in a full CC whilst I just see my hp fly away. I guess... Sorc's lightning slows us way the hell down though. and you do have the ability to remove snare. Just like we have the ability to do the same. Like I said though it should have been a balance. This is not a balance. This was something that was obviously taken overboard. I'm not gonna get on here and say "I'm canceling my account because they nerfed my toon!" I will just look for other ways to survive out there. Doesn't mean I'm not pissed at the PRINCIPLE of the situation though. Sorc's did the complaining and we got Nerfed now they are able to be on top. Enjoy it while it lasts folks. Cause its just gonna keep happening. Again because they didn't Balance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 This is where people go wrong though. Yes, a Sorcerer might be able to kill me just as quickly, but during this I can atleast CONTROL my character, and actively work towards not being killed that quickly. You CANT do this vs an Operative. I dont even mind your high damage aslong as I can react to it and actually play my character, but right now I am stuck in a full CC whilst I just see my hp fly away. This is not true. Sorcs can chain stun and it doesn't respect the resolve bar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Choppaman Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 This is where people go wrong though. Yes, a Sorcerer might be able to kill me just as quickly, but during this I can atleast CONTROL my character, and actively work towards not being killed that quickly. You CANT do this vs an Operative. I dont even mind your high damage aslong as I can react to it and actually play my character, but right now I am stuck in a full CC whilst I just see my hp fly away. Yeah, it's all about control to me. Bursty classes are whatever, but when that is coupled with too much control it just gets ridiculous. There's too much CC in this game as it is. I know this because I am a healer and I get hit with all of them, all of the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghingis Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 This is not true. Sorcs can chain stun and it doesn't respect the resolve bar. I can prepare for their stuns though. I can not prepare for an Operative opening on me, thats impossible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghingis Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 I guess... Sorc's lightning slows us way the hell down though. and you do have the ability to remove snare. Just like we have the ability to do the same. Like I said though it should have been a balance. This is not a balance. This was something that was obviously taken overboard. I'm not gonna get on here and say "I'm canceling my account because they nerfed my toon!" I will just look for other ways to survive out there. Doesn't mean I'm not pissed at the PRINCIPLE of the situation though. Sorc's did the complaining and we got Nerfed now they are able to be on top. Enjoy it while it lasts folks. Cause its just gonna keep happening. Again because they didn't Balance. I just think that people make bigger fuss about this change then what it actually is. You will still be able to dish out incredible amounts of damage, regardless of this change. Especially if you take teamplay into consideration. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Choppaman Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 This is not true. Sorcs can chain stun and it doesn't respect the resolve bar. They're not gonna nerf a class that probably 35% of the playerbase plays. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lushbits Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 3528 crit on similarly geared played is too much? Really? REALLY!? This is pre-nerf. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J1su-tMdKJE Vid to prove it. The other guys has 450 exp, the operative has 400. Can't wait to have that number reduced by 20%. People are pulling these 8K crits out of their asses. Just not possible without buff stacking. Fine, nerf some of it. Like we all say, nerf us. Just don't wreck the entire tree! It's too friggin much! Ghingis: No reply to this? How convenient! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghingis Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 Ghingis: No reply to this? How convenient! That is one ability. I dont really care what you say, or what links you post. I was looking at my hp when I got opened on, and I looked at it when I could start moving. You can believe whatever you want. Your damage is way over the top with the CC you have, and its getting fixed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newsinz Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 (edited) I just think that people make bigger fuss about this change then what it actually is. You will still be able to dish out incredible amounts of damage, regardless of this change. Especially if you take teamplay into consideration. Yeah, I guess I can agree with some people are taking this WAY overboard. Team play is relative to pre-mades. If you are queuing solo you may as well kiss any sense of teamwork out the door. The only people that tend to team play are Healers. The rest are just worried about getting as many kills as possible and obtaining as many PvP objectives as they can. We will be dishing out Average damage now. Unless we are fully Stated out... and even then its nothing to write home about. Edited January 25, 2012 by Newsinz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lushbits Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 I dont really care what you say, or what links you post. Wow, what an ignorant answer. I was looking at my hp when I got opened on, and I looked at it when I could start moving. Then you clearly must have missed the two snipers shooting you at the same time. But go ahead. Blame the Operative with his 3.5K MEGA SUPER BURST. This is getting ridiculous. Please just stay out of the discussion if you have nothing to even closely related to facts to contribute. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edex Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 I have played an op, my friend has played an op. It lived up to its abbreviation, luckily that is just 1 of 3 trees so no its not going to kill the class or omg cause the end of the world. My main being an assasin i would say you are very spoiled as a class, having such high spike damage in all abilities. Welcome to the learning curve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edex Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 Oh and fyi.. you can argue it all you want, bioware still has the numbers and guess what they added up to? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rippitup Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 I started a thread that simply asks for proof. Feel free to check out how NOT CRAZY the CURRENTLY LIVE OPS really are. http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=232439 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lushbits Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 Oh and fyi.. you can argue it all you want, bioware still has the numbers and guess what they added up to? The only numbers MYTHIC has is the numbers that EA feeds them. In the books. They cater to the masses of Sorcerers at this moment. When the games' bugs are taking care of they want to have enough players left. THEN they might look at balance. Now its only "cash is king" sadly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edex Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 Ok lets look at sorcs, they can heal have dps and bubbles. Ops can heal have dps and stealth.. so your basicly the same but without bubbles. Except i never seen them smite someone in 5 seconds. Ever. And yes your knockdown is technically 2 seconds but dont forget getting up animation that also takes forever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newsinz Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 Ok lets look at sorcs, they can heal have dps and bubbles. Ops can heal have dps and stealth.. so your basicly the same but without bubbles. Except i never seen them smite someone in 5 seconds. Ever. And yes your knockdown is technically 2 seconds but dont forget getting up animation that also takes forever. Please lets not bring up animations. Cause Imperials are easily better off then just about EVERY SINGLE Republic Class lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghingis Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 Wow, what an ignorant answer. Then you clearly must have missed the two snipers shooting you at the same time. But go ahead. Blame the Operative with his 3.5K MEGA SUPER BURST. This is getting ridiculous. Please just stay out of the discussion if you have nothing to even closely related to facts to contribute. Stay out of the discussion if you are a biased Operative. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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