A serious look at the Smug/Op nerf - a better solution for 1.11? [long read]

Raice · January 23, 2012

If you play Scrapper/Concealment and you haven't read this, then you haven't done your part to support your Class. Read this and inform yourself before you do any more complaining.

TL;DR Version: By popular demand

Solve this problem by addressing the problem:

If Scrapper/Concealment is "killing faster than intended" because of the 6k Critical Damage, then reduce the Critical Damage of Underdog/Meticulous Blades which gives us a +30% Buff to our Primary Burst Rotation abilities (the ones that kill you.)

It will be better for everyone because you aren't dying in 3s, and wouldn't compromise Scrapper/Concealment to the point that we would have to abandon the top tier Skills in these trees altogether - which is fair and balanced design. If you want to understand how this works - read on.

Personally, I would be a lot happier with this. Why? Because you aren't being killed in 3s, and my class isn't broken. It's a win/win.

The Post Proper:

I created this thread, here, in the PvP forums, and then I remade it in the Public Test Sever Forums. The Public Test Server Forums thread has been moved to the Suggestion Box Forums. I have gotten substantial attention from both.

I think this is a very important issue, and I would like to be addressed here, as well. I'll provide the link to the Suggestion Box thread if anyone is interested in giving it a read-through, however, it says the same thing here.

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=227273

EDIT::

I have revised this to be an easier read, while also making a few minor corrections in grammar and flow.

Preface:

Skip down to "The better solution:" if you want the gist of this.

This is a long read. There is some good stuff in here if you bother - please do. I sincerely would like some feedback on this.

However, before I get into this, I just want to say that (as a Scrapper) I acknowledge that we're getting nerfed. We can argue all day long about whether it's the right thing to do or not - but that's not what this thread is about. The fact of the matter is, one way or another, Scrapper/Concealment is getting nerfed - period.

Let's look at this issue differently, shall we? Please, no name calling or ridiculous remarks about which Class can do more than your Class's momma. I'm trying to make a legitimate thread here, where we can all meet in the middle and find a compromise that will actually work.

Leave Biochem, Gear, Relics, and whatever else out of this, since those arguments aren't going to stop these classes from being nerfed.

The argument:

So, I've been thinking about this nerf quite a bit. And I know it isn't written in stone, but for the moment it is all we have to go on for what's coming up. I have some simple questions that I sincerely just need some more clarity on, and I would like to know what you guys think.

If the big deal about Scrapper is the Critical Hit Damage that we're doing (6k and all that jazz) - why would we need to nerf 2 abilities that have nothing to do with the actual Critical Damage?

Flechette Round:

If they mess with the Armor Penetration on Flechette Round, then we have basically been cut off to attacking people in Heavy Armor. I mean - these guys can be tough anyway. I realize someone is going to say, "Awe... u mad u can't kill me in one shot?" But that is really not what I am saying, and that is not an intelligent conversation point. So let's move forward.

Ideally speaking, all classes should conceiveably be able to kill every other class. However it is done - it should be possible. Locking Scrapper/Concealment out of a Class that wears Heavy Armor (that is hard for us to kill anyway) is not a solution - which is exactly what will happen when our Armor Penetration is reduced.

The Armor Penetration is there specifically to allow our Base Damage to bypass armor to a certain degree. This is important for us - we HAVE to be able to penetrate the armor. Otherwise, there is no way we can do any amount of damage - because of how Shield Rating and Absorption works (which all Tanks have.)

I don't care how mad you are at this class... you have to listen to reason on that. You have to. You cannot say the solution to the problem is to castrate us from doing the Burst Critical Damage the Tree was designed to do.

If you design a class to perform a function, and do not also design the circumstance to be built into the class to create the condition for it to perform it's function - then you do not have a functional class. This applies to any class.

ADDITION::

More on this later.

1.1.1 sucks for everyone:

This nerf does more harm than you think it does. Yes - it will drastically reduce the Scrapper/Concealer's ability to "win". But in all the wrong ways. Do we need a nerf? I personally say "no", but I won't be going into "why". Regardless, the fact is, I'm getting a nerf anyway. I can live with that. But let's be smart and fair about this.

If you shut an "op" Class down, the only thing it will do is move the hate from one Class to another. You know it. And I know it. We've seen this happen too many times on too many games to think otherwise.

Today, Scappers and Concealers are the root of everyone's rage. After this patch, that rage will then be transferred onto another Class, and we as a community are down an entire Tree in a class we may one day want to play. This is not functional.

The better solution:

Now, I hope (I really do) that given this examination, we can all see that this nerf is not doing anything productive for the purposes of Class Balance - which is what we all really want, right? I want you to really try to not focus on the rage of your past experiences, and look at this reasonably and without bias. If I have to live with a nerf - you can look at this with a clear head on your shoulders.

I ask that we find better solutions that will not break the Scrapper/Concealment trees. And rest assured, this nerf will break them. It won't balance anything. It will break them. You have to see that.

Fortunately, I have a better solution, and I encourage you to examine this, tell me what you think, and give feedback. I don't know that this will work, but I do know it will be a LOT better than what 1.11 currently provides.

Addressing the problem:

What is the real problem? It doesn't matter what the real problem is. We all know what the real problem is, but Bioware seems to think Scrapper/Concealment is the real problem and is nerfing it instead of what we all know is the real problem. So let's move on to the problem with Scrapper/Concealment.

Critical Damage.

We do too much of it in too short of a time. If you have read this far, you will see that you cannot nerf the time in which it takes us to produce our Critical Damage, because it will destroy the functionality of the Tree. What's left? Addressing the Critical Damage.[/size]

Nerf Underdog/Meticulous Blades instead:

Here is what Underdog/Meticulous Blades does:

+1.5 Energy for each tick of Pugnacity/Stim Boost.

+30% Critical Damage to:

Back Blast/Back Stab

Flechette Round/Acid Blade

Shoot First/Hidden Strike

Tendon Blast/Sever Tendon

The way I understand this: we get a +30% to Critical Damage whether Pugnacity is running or not. Now, here's the deal: 3 of the 4 abilities listed are basically what make up the bulk of our Critical Damage in our Burst. They are the most important abilities to our Burst Rotation, specifically because of what this Skill does to them.

Nerf it. Nerf it all day long. Nerf it until you're giddy in the face!

Underdog/Meticulous Blades has a lot of functionality for 1 Skill/3 Skill Points - even I would admit that. It is, by and large, ridiculous. Why are we doing so much Critical Damage? Because of Underdog/Meticulous Blades.

This is why you die so fast:

1. It's not the 3s Knockdown - 3s Stuns (and longer) happen all day long from other classes and people aren't dying.

2. It's not the Armor Penetration - there are attacks in other classes that bypass Armor completely - no one is dying to that.

3. It's not the applied DoT - don't even get me started.

4. It's the amount of Critical Damage we can apply to you in very little time. The fact that all of our Burst attacks are Instant Casts is proof of how fast we can do this. But like I said, you cannot nerf the time it takes us to do it - you can only nerf the output: the amount of Critical Damage.

5. It's not the base damage that is the problem - the base damage is nothing.

6. It's not one attack that kills you. It's 3-5 attacks, that all crit for roughly 4-6k - that's 14-30k (give or take) damage in a matter of seconds, people. Even if you could respond to the 3s stun, or it didn't exist - we would hurt you, and likely kill you. Even if the AP were reduced - we would hurt you (unless you're wearing Heavy Armor.) Even without the DoT - you would still be hit for 12-18k.

7. It's the Critical Damage that kills you! Reduce our Critical Damage and the most you would ever get out of us, the very most - if the stars and planets aligned perfectly, and someone sacrificed a virgin to Khali, and you were afk, and we Crit EVERY SINGLE TIME - the most you would ever get from us is 17.5k - that's a lot less than 30k.

8. Put into perspective... we would average around 10-12k, and you could stop it all by simply using your Escape, that we cannot counter because your Resolve is filled up. This is the reality of Scrapper/Concealment if all that was done was a reduction in Critical Damage - plain and simple.

It's the Critical Damage. We do more of it than everyone else - because we are designed to do just that. What's the problem?

It's too much Critical Damage being applied at once. We don't need this much Critical Damage happening, because we already do more than everyone else.

Solve this problem by addressing the problem:

If Scrapper/Concealment is "killing faster than intended" because of Critical Damage, then reduce the Critical Damage of Underdog/Meticulous Blades. It will be better for everyone, and wouldn't compromise Scrapper/Concealment to the point that we would have to abandon the top tier Skills in these trees altogether.

Personally, I would be a lot happier with this. Why? Because you aren't being killed in 3s, and my class isn't broken. It's a win/win.

[/size]

Discussing The Better Solution::

Kyrandis brought up a good point in the other thread: Paraphrased

"If you reduce the Critical Damage, then the class would never be able to make up for it after the Stun, because you don't have enough damage outside of the Burst Rotation."

This is somewhat true, I think, which is why we always tell you how terrible we are outside of the Burst. We weren't kidding. But, I think that our ability to just flat out kill you is... it's just wrong. I think, really, since Underdog is only applied to 3 specific attacks, and we reduce that Critical Damage Output.... it'll work itself out. However, like I said - this might not be the best solution. But it's a lot better than what we've been given.

In the event our out of Burst Damage is indeed too low to make up the difference, I have an alternative:

Kyrandis's suggestion in response to this would be to make Underdog give a base 5/10/15% bonus to Critical Damage that applies to everything, instead of a 10/20/30% bonus to our 3 biggest attacks. I support this. I think it would work better than what we currently have in Live, at any rate.

Just remember - the only thing that really matters is the amount of Critical Damage we can do in the 3-5 second window of our Burst Rotation. The Stun, the AP, the Bleed... none of that is the actual problem.

FACTS::

Since the forums have been offline, I've been doing some research and some math. I'm going to skip around a little here, so bear with me. I'm honestly tired of holding your hands through this, so I'm going to take it easy on myself, since I know 90% of you aren't going to read this far anyway...

KO:

My friend Kyrandis (who helped me make some sense of things in the other thread) was kind enough to link us to some facts and figures about Resolve, Stuns, Mezes, and Knock Backs (which is what KO does.) I'll let you skim over that and study it while I show you the math of what is happening with KO as it is now, compared to the Nerf in 1.11.

I won't explain this - it's pretty simple if you're not dumb. Go to the link Kyrandis provided below; read it; and then figure it out for yourself. I'm not holding your hand on this one.

http://taugrim.com/2012/01/04/understanding-swtors-resolve-mechanic/

1200 - 3s KB

+50% = 2000

18s Stun Immunity

600 = 1.5s KB

800 = 4s Stun (Applied Dirty kick)

+50% =1800

18s Stun Immunity

What? What's that you say? "You mean to tell me after all of that, the 3s Stun is actually DOING THE SAME THING?" Yes.... that's exactly what I am saying.... except that I have to do it in 2 Abilities instead of one - and neither of them will work.

So essentially, when they nerf KO, you will still keep your 18s of Stun Immunity from EVERYONE. My 3s Stun gives YOU a buff to your Resolve. By the way - you're welcome. You may think that's not a big deal though since you will be able to survive my Burst Rotation now that my stun has been reduced by 1.5s. Okay... let's continue...

EDIT::

This section has been corrected for typos.

Flechette Round:

Armor 75% (Maximum possible Armor Rating Percentage possible in game. Look it up if you don't believe me.)

50% AP = 37.5%

30% AP = 52.5% (Nerf 1.11)

Shoot First

Stock

2043-2230 (Shoot First Damage Range) = 2137 (Average)

2137 + 641 (30% Crit Damage) = 2778 - 37.5% AP = 1737

Nerf 1.11

1635-1784 (Shoot First Damage Range -20% Damage) = 1710 (Average -20% Damage)

1710 + 513 (30% Crit Damage) = 2223 - 52.5% AP = 1056

Proposed Fix (Reduced Crit Percentage)

2043-2230 (Shoot First Damage Range) = 2137 (Average)

2137 + 320 (15% Crit Damage) = 2457 - 37.5% AP = 1536

You may notice that Nerf 1.11 significantly reduces the damage output of Shoot First. Well, the AP reduction and the Damage Reduction do a lot.... on this one attack. Remember - we don't kill you with 1 attack; we kill you with 5. You'll survive this - you won't survive the others (unless you wear Heavy Armor, which means we will never be able to kill you, which is a design flaw by the way), because they do not incur the 20% Reduced Damage. Moving on...

Back Blast

Stock

1067-1083 (Back Blast Damage Range) = 1075 (Average)

1075 + 322.5 (30% Crit Damage) = 1397.5 - 37.5% AP = 873.5

Nerf 1.11

(Remember, this doesn't receive a -20% Damage Reduction - the Range and Average stays the same.)

1075 + 322 (30% Crit) = 1397 - 52.5% AP = 664

Proposed Fix

1075 + 161 (15% Crit) = 1236 - 37.5% AP = 772

Now you may be thinking a few things.

1. I seem to be pulling numbers out of thin air. I am not. Look them up. Do the math yourself. Fortunately for you, I spent the past 3 hours doing it so you wouldn't have to. But don't take my word for it.

2. My proposed fix actually produces more damage than the nerf. You know what? You're right. But we can always nerf the Crit Damage more. It's a lot easier than nerfing 2 of our most important abilities. I never said my solution was perfect - I said it was better. We can nerf it to 10%. I'll let you do the math on that to your hearts' desire. But... I'll give you this one anyway since....

3. The results from Back Blast don't seem to show as much of a difference as Shoot First. How astute of you to notice! The differences are minimal. What does this mean? You're going to die anyway! YAY FOR ME! Why? Because Shoot First is not what kills you. It's a series of attacks. Right now, it takes 2 GCD's for us to use Shoot First and Back Blast. That's 3s. That's equal to the stun KO applies. Which means you aren't dying in 3s, because we have 2-3 more attacks in our Burst Rotation before we are finished - and by extention... before you die. I don't even have to get into the math in those, because the results would reflect the same as the Back Blast Results since the -20% Damage Reduction doesn't apply to them either. So the overall damage we will be doing to you... for all intents and purposes... is going to be roughly the same. A little less... but a little less than a max of 30k in this respect is approximately 22k.... which means you're going to die anyway. The 1.5s Stun is not going to save you.

4. You might also notice that none of these figures are representative of the actual damage we do to you - 600-800 is NOT 5-6k. Keep in mind... I'm just using stock values with what the Abilities do and how they react to these few Skills. So you might want to ask me: "But Raice - my brotha! Where is all the extra damage coming from?" Which leads me to my final point:

THE GEAR

THE RELICS

BIOCHEM

THE BUFFS

FROM DAY 1 WE'VE TOLD YOU THE SAME THING - IT'S NOT THE CLASS[/size]

But since THOSE aren't what are being nerfed - and Smuggler/Op is.... I am giving you my better solution. NOT because I think Smuggler/Op needs to be nerfed... but because I am trying to save my class and because I am tired of everyone whining and complaining about the NON-ISSUE - which is why we're being nerfed in the first place; unnecessarily so.

If only you guys would listen to us next time! By the way... did you really think that this nerf was going to suddenly force us to play more strategically than we already were? I know my class - and I just defended it against all of your BS. That is the very definition of Tactical.

More FACTS::

A lot of people are confused as to what Armor Penetration actually means, and this is because they do not understand how Damage Mitigation actually works. They seem to think it produces MORE damage. This is false. The total amount of damage produced is based on the Base Damage Range, Power, and Surge vs various aspects.

Power increases SOME Base Damage. Surge increases the Critical Damage which automatically starts at Base Damage +50%, which is applied on TOP of the Base Damage. If you aren't stacking Surge... your Critical Damage will not be astronomical. Guess which Secondary Stat Scoundrels/Ops are most concerned with? Can you guess why? No - the answer is not because "Everyone says to do it..." Here's why.

Armor Penetration vs Defense::

Defense is a value derived from your Level, total Armor Rating, and a few other things. Defense determines whether or not you are hit by more than the Base Attack. Nothing about Defense determines whether or not you are actually hit. You are always hit by Base Damage, regardless (you never see MISS pop up on your screen.)

Accuracy is built into your Primary Stat - for Smugglers/IA it's Cunning; Trooper/BH is Aim; so forth and so on. My Accuracy is pitted against your Defense. If I win, I get to have a chance at producing Critical Damage. If I lose, your Defense won, and all that is applied is Base Damage. This is where Armor Value and Armor Penetration come into play.

Armor Value reduces the amount of Base Damage applied. If your Armor Value is 50% and my Base Damage is 50, then you receive 25 Points of Base Damage. Armor Penetration reduces your Armor Value. If your Armor Value is 50% and my Armor Penetration is 50%, then you have 25% Armor Value which means my 50 Damage is 37.5 Points of Damage that directly reduces your Hit Points. All of this takes place regardless if I won the Accuracy vs Defense roll or not.

Critical Damage:

If I won the Acc vs Def roll, then it goes into Phase 2. Critical Chance and Critical Rating mean the same thing. My Critical Rating goes against your Shield Rating. If I win - I bypass your Shield altogether. You receive all of the damage my Critical Hit can produce... on TOP of whatever the result was that your Armor Value vs my Base Damage produced. If your Shield Rating roll beats my Critical Rating roll, then your Absorption Rating kicks in and reduces my Critical Damage, exactly like your Armor Value reduces my Base Damage.

Armor Penetration has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with my Critical Hit in any shape, form, or fashion.

So, what's the big deal with Armor Penetration and how did 1.11 cut me off from Heavy Armor Classes?

Shield Rating and Absorption::

All the Heavy Armor classes can utilize a Shield Generator. A Shield Generator, more or less, gives them an added layer of Defense specifically against Critical Damage. It does absolutely nothing more than that, functionally speaking. That's why they use it. On top of this, this is the very reason WHY they stack Shield Rating and Absorption Rating - so that my Critical Damage is non-existent and I MUST rely on my non-existent Base Damage... and by extension - SUSTAINED DAMAGE. This is the very item that makes them a Tank. Without it, Absorption Rating would not even be a factor, just like Classes without a Shield Generator (like me for instance) don't even utilize Absorption. Any time we are hit with a Critical... we take it all... Like a man, I might add.

Shield Rating mitigates Critical Damage - nothing else. This is why "Tanks" have them.

Theoretically speaking, if the Absorption Rating were high enough, then my Critical Damage would more or less be reduced by around half, and I would have to rely on my Base Damage to make up for it. Well... it doesn't do that. Why not? Because it's already being mitigated by the Armor Value - which is why I have Armor Penetration - which... by the way... my AP only lasts for 15 seconds and is only triggered by 2 attacks, which both have to be used behind the target, and one of which MUST be used in Stealth.... which is WHY..... they have AoE abilities that specifically draw Stealth dudes from OUT OF STEALTH!

Either way - I would still die. This is why I RELY on the element of surprise, and WHY I HAVE to have an opener with a Stun that allows me to perform my Burst Rotation. Without them... I will die. It's an observable fact. You cannot lock me out of killing an entire genre of Class. That's the very reason 1.1.1 is even being proposed in the first place.

For Heavy Armor guys.... their Absorption Rating works anyway. Without the momentary pause in in their damage to me... I simply would not kill them - period. Reducing my AP will render my Base Damage even MORE worthless than it already is. And without the Stun... their Base Damage - which is phenomenal by the way, thanks to whatever Power they MIGHT have, which is usually conveniently tagged along with Absorption Rating also, by the way - on top of whatever Critical Damage they do (which I cannot mitigate at ALL) - I would be dead with no way to respond.

Wait a minute - THAT sounds familiar! Remember when I said the "hate" would transfer to a new class? Did you think I was kidding?

"Tanks"::

All you "Tanks" out there complaining about Scrapper/Concealment owning you.... you're probably dying because you are stacking Crit Rating and Surge and NOT the very thing that will protect you from us - OR if you're a BH or a Trooper, you are using a Power Generator and all that it implies (which, again, effects your Base Damage - which, also again, is all you need to kill me since I have no Armor Value to protect me against it in comparison to yours.) You are NOT specced to do what your Class was designed to do (Protection), because you're too worried about Kills and Damage ratios. You are complaining about me doing what MY Class was designed to do, and trying to compete with my designm instead of owning face at what YOU'RE designed to do.

Now, why would ANYONE want to do this? Because "Everyone said to do it..." and you do not understand how it works to know otherwise. I'd be willing to bet the guy who started that rumor was a misinformed Scrapper/Op. "Dude, check out my Critical Hits! They're OVER 9,000!" Then again... it might have been a Juggernaught.... Whatever - don't worry. Raice is your friend. He's got your back! I am here to inform you with CORRECT information. This is about the bigger picture, after all.

"But Raice! My brotha! I play a Sorc/Sage.... I want you to own me in the face with your knowledge of this game and how it works too!"

Don't worry - you're next.

Sages and Sorcerers::

Sorc's Sages.... you'll notice that you don't have the ability to protect against my Critical Damage like the Heavy Armor guys. Here's why:

I'M BUILT SPECIFICALLY TO DESTROY YOU!

Just like, you'll notice, the Heavies are built to destroy me... and each other. Actually... they're built to lay waste to everything that moves - but that's a different discussion.

Did you ever wonder why you have so many abilities that have to do with CC and all these neat tricks that let you get away with stuff other people, generally speaking, can't? It's because you don't have Stealth and you don't have Armor. Did you ever wonder why we always pester you? Because you're always on the outskirts of where the action is taking place. Why does your placement on the battle-map matter? Because we hang out on the outskirts too. We usually have a juice bar going - you should come... bring a friend! You think we wanna get in on all that action where all those brutes are beating each other up? HECK NO! WE'LL DIE! And we know it! We're much more sophisticated than that. Nothing's worse than ruining a good shirt, you know?

So we hang out in the back, even further out than you, really. We bypass our Sniper and Gunslinger pals completely, because... pff... screw that... plus there's sort of this "Honor Amongst Thieves" thing going. And... I mean I can't even FIND the other Stealth dudes, and even when I do - it's basically a matter of who hit who first... unless there is an obvious difference in gear. So... by order of elimination - all that's left is YOU!

See... you're taking this all wrong. You think I hate you... but I actually LOVE you the MOST! And since there are more of you in this game than every other class (probably combined).... it's like Christmas every WZ! Which brings me to a good point:

Why are WE being nerfed? Because YOU said so - because you don't understand the game. I know this by virtue of the fact that I literally just explained how everyone is SUPPOSED to happen, and it works perfectly when it is done correctly. And since it ISN'T working, and I know WE are not getting this wrong... someone MUST be playing incorrectly. There are more of you who don't understand the game, than there are of us, by virtue of the fact that there are simply more OF you. To be fair, half of US are misinformed, too...

Not anymore.

Conlusion::

So the question still remains. Is it really the 3s Stun or the AP that kill you? Maybe.... *sniff* Maybe...

Then again, maybe we just do a little too much Critical Damage?

Maybe YOU need a buff? Now I KNOW you thought of THAT solution - am I right? At any rate, that's on YOU to figure out. Just make sure it makes sense. If you don't know how to do that - read my thread again. It doesn't just teach you how this nerf is wrong, or how the Scoundrel/Op works, or how Tanks should spec, or how Sorcs should play. It also teaches you how to make sense. And that's a life lesson you can carry with you outside of even the game! Again - you're welcome.

I did my part for MY Class. I challenge someone else to figure out what is wrong with their own Class.

All I know is - Nerf 1.11 for Scoundrel/Op is pointless, and I've covered it from every single angle that I can think of, which is far more than anyone should ever need to when speaking to grown human beings. I literally spent 3 days writing and adding to this big ooole' thread to explain to anyone who reads it WHY this Nerf is the wrong decision.

This IS the better solution.

The End

Edited January 28, 2012 by Raice
Revision

KorwinOfAmber · January 23, 2012

Your thoughts?

Welcome to how every other class plays. Your exclusive VIP rights for killing peoplep before they can react are over - now you have to actually learn to pvp.

On a topic - acid blade was nerfed EXACTLY BECAUSE you arent supposed to kill heavy armored targets withing seconds, in no circumstances. Stealth kill sorcerers, dps sins, other operatives, snipers whatever from ambush and escape - fine. Going head to head wtih juggernaut and killing him in short time - nope, thats not your role.

You still get a superb damage - dont make it sound like if you get nerfed into the ground. Its just that now heavy armor works for you as intended - as heavy armor and not another looking version of cloth, and you dont get to safely dps people over 4.5 second (cut the 1.5 sec ********, i dont think even you believe it) than vanish and repeat.

Edited January 23, 2012 by KorwinOfAmber

Kyrandis · January 23, 2012

First of all KO will not use the full resolve unless BIOWARE intentionally makes it that way. It will only do ~700/1000 Resolve. Because it is a displacement and a stun in one package. Resolve does not work on an ability by ability basis. Its Type * Duration. Some types give a set amount(such as displacement). Others give a certain amount per second.

Second of all the best and most logically nerf would have been to the Talent Underdog. Changing the Critical Bonus from 10/20/30% to 5/10/15% would have reduced the burst effectively. A 20% nerf to flechette round AP is fine. The base damage of shoot first should not of been lowered. The ability when it doesn't crit doesn't hit that hard in the first place. Highest I've seen it hit without buffs is ~2k. You are correct there. They could've also reduced the Talent Element of Surprise from 8%/16% to 5%/10%. These 2 things would've been more than enough to fix our critical damage.

Regardless if I'm right we get a 5.5 second chain stun. If you're right we get 2 talents points that have better places to be. We will still use Dirty after shoot first regardless.

Edit: I'll see if I can find the posts on resolve numbers.

Edited January 23, 2012 by Kyrandis

Raice · January 23, 2012

Welcome to how every other class plays. Your exclusive VIP rights for killing peoplep before they can react are over - now you have to actually learn to pvp.

You didn't even read a word of what I wrote - did you? It's okay. I'm not mad at you. Thank you for your comments.

Raice · January 23, 2012

First of all KO will not use the full resolve unless BIOWARE intentionally makes it that way. It will only do ~700/1000 Resolve. Because it is a displacement and a stun in one package. Resolve does not work on an ability by ability basis. Its Type * Duration. Some types give a set amount(such as displacement). Others give a certain amount per second.

Second of all the best and most logically nerf would have been to the Talent Underdog. Changing the Critical Bonus from 10/20/30% to 5/10/15% would have reduced the burst effectively. A 20% nerf to flechette round AP is fine. The base damage of shoot first should not of been lowered. The ability when it doesn't crit doesn't hit that hard in the first place. Highest I've seen it hit without buffs is ~2k. You are correct there.

Regardless if I'm right we get a 5.5 second chain stun. If you're right we get 2 talents points that have better places to be. We will still use Dirty after shoot first regardless.

Edit: I'll see if I can find the posts on resolve numbers.

That would be great to see those numbers! Thank you.

I thought the "displacement" from KO was a glitch?

Reducing Underdog is essentially what I was saying would make the most out of the nerf.

I disagree with the Armor Penetration being touched at all, but it might not be too bad at 20%. We'll just have to wait and see.

Thanks for the feedback!

KorwinOfAmber · January 23, 2012

You didn't even read a word of what I wrote - did you? It's okay. I'm not mad at you. Thank you for your comments.

Actually i did. Writing wall of text doesn't automatically make content of the text more valuable. You could have spared a lot of time by just writing two symbols - "qq".

Noleader · January 23, 2012

All I know is what I see first hand... I die before the stun wears off when attacked. That is the root issue here... It is not PvP when you get to beat me into the ground and I can't so ANYTHING at all to stop it.

To me it looks like their nerf was well thought out and should bring you in balance... you will still be able to take 40% of my life before I stand up but now atleast I can counter your abilities and actually have a shot at killing you.

I had actually hoped BW would have done like Blizzard and over did the nerf on you so I could just kill all the ops who ran around uncontested the last few weeks for fun and revenge... but I will live... and guess what... so will you.

Kyrandis · January 23, 2012

That would be great to see those numbers! Thank you.

I thought the "displacement" from KO was a glitch?

Reducing Underdog is essentially what I was saying would make the most out of the nerf.

I disagree with the Armor Penetration being touched at all, but it might not be too bad at 20%. We'll just have to wait and see.

Thanks for the feedback!

http://taugrim.com/2012/01/04/understanding-swtors-resolve-mechanic/

It doesn't go into Displacements, someone was nice enough to point out to me that displacements give 400 resolve upfront. That was one of the problems I was wondering to but when you put it all together the math does add up properly.

And our Knockdown did need a nerf. And I was happy for it, that thing is only marginally worth more than the full resolve bar it produces.

Edited January 23, 2012 by Kyrandis

KorwinOfAmber · January 23, 2012

Another point being you talk about "critical damage" downplaying Acid Blades and the relevance of kb/stun - ignoring the fact that Acid Blade does internal damage.

All your other attacks do kinetic/energy damage, and acid blades on top of superb damage gives all your attacks basically around 30% damage buff (more if criticals are considered). For 15 seconds. Spammable ability. Which basically means - forever.

Yet you pretend the problem is not that you can KB/stun targets and kill or DPS them withing a stun (and somehow everyone overlook that 3sec KB cannot be "escaped" and right after target gets up you can root as it bypasses resolve it so "escaping" is problematic? Not to mention group PvP setting where you get KBed by operative, cant get up for 3 secs and got pounded by everyone.)

Get over it. You got nerfed, and if anything - we dont know if enought or not. The class with the changes applied still stays one of the strongest, and the only thing REALLY relevant that changed is that you cant solely rely on KB burst anymore, and has to use one more attack to kill enemy..

Edited January 23, 2012 by KorwinOfAmber

Raice · January 23, 2012

All I know is what I see first hand... I die before the stun wears off when attacked. That is the root issue here... It is not PvP when you get to beat me into the ground and I can't so ANYTHING at all to stop it.

To me it looks like their nerf was well thought out and should bring you in balance... you will still be able to take 40% of my life before I stand up but now atleast I can counter your abilities and actually have a shot at killing you.

I had actually hoped BW would have done like Blizzard and over did the nerf on you so I could just kill all the ops who ran around uncontested the last few weeks for fun and revenge... but I will live... and guess what... so will you.

You die before you can react because of the Critical Damage we are able to apply before the Stun wears off. If it's not that stun, then we would just use a different stun.

We won't be able to take 40% of your life if they take away the Critical Damage. You have to look at this in GCD's. We use 3-4 Attacks to do this. That's roughly 6-7.5s - we cannot attack faster than the GCD's will let us. These 6-7s deaths occur because of the Critical Damage we apply.

I understand what you WANT to happen. But you aren't looking at this from a "betterment of the game" standpoint. You're taking it personally, and you're allowing your bias to compromise your Reason. I totally understand how you feel. I went through the same ordeal for the past 2 days when I saw the Patch Notes, and I wasn't looking at that correctly, either.

Regardless, our biased opinions aren't doing anything but clouding our judgement. I am trying to meet you in the middle. You don't want me to kill you so easily? Okay. I am happy to oblige. I offered something that will drastically effect my ability to do that. But breaking the class is not the answer.

Thanks for your comments!

Kyrandis · January 23, 2012

And tbh I was think making a post exactly like this one. I knew where our issues were. I knew them when I looked at the talent and went omg thats too awesome.

Ghingis · January 23, 2012

In all fairness I think these changes are pretty good.

Simply because the damage reduction wont really kill the ability, and the KO duration needs to be fixed so people can actually react. I do not mind high damage at all, aslong as me as a player can actively use my abilities to be able to avoid it.

Hence being able to outplay people and coming out on top, which I am sure you know is not the case with the current state of Operatives.

The K.O should not give a full Resolve bar after this nerf though, and Operatives should be pretty well balanced I think.

The main problem in this game right now, I think, is how Resolve (doesnt) work. Its just a really odd CC system overall and I dont really like it at all, needs to be fixed.

Krystaf · January 23, 2012

I don't care how scoundrels/ops are balanced, but straight forward nerfing is always bad. You have good suggestions here I think.

Imho, there should not be a class that can alpha you below 50%ish health (even 50% is lot compared to games that actually have a really good pvp system). That's bad game design. period.

sefirus · January 23, 2012

I think that nerf is necesary by when active this patch we can chek if good or no and later redit.

Bellatrix · January 23, 2012

Welcome to how every other class plays. Your exclusive VIP rights for killing peoplep before they can react are over - now you have to actually learn to pvp.

On a topic - acid blade was nerfed EXACTLY BECAUSE you arent supposed to kill heavy armored targets withing seconds, in no circumstances. Stealth kill sorcerers, dps sins, other operatives, snipers whatever from ambush and escape - fine. Going head to head wtih juggernaut and killing him in short time - nope, thats not your role.

You still get a superb damage - dont make it sound like if you get nerfed into the ground. Its just that now heavy armor works for you as intended - as heavy armor and not another looking version of cloth, and you dont get to safely dps people over 4.5 second (cut the 1.5 sec ********, i dont think even you believe it) than vanish and repeat.

I don't get owned in seconds on my juggernaut from smugglers/operatives. And neither do I own them in seconds on my 500 expertise operative. And fyi I don't use biochem on my operative.

And for the record Juggernaut is a far superior pvp class then operative is.

Edited January 23, 2012 by Bellatrix

Kyrandis · January 23, 2012

Another point being you talk about "critical damage" downplaying Acid Blades and the relevance of kb/stun - ignoring the fact that Acid Blade does internal damage.

All your other attacks do kinetic/energy damage, and acid blades on top of superb damage gives all your attacks basically around 30% damage buff (more if criticals are considered). For 15 seconds. Spammable ability. Which basically means - forever.

Yet you pretend the problem is not that you can KB/stun targets and kill or DPS them withing a stun (and somehow everyone overlook that 3sec KB cannot be "escaped" and right after target gets up you can root as it bypasses resolve it so "escaping" is problematic? Not to mention group PvP setting where you get KBed by operative, cant get up for 3 secs and got pounded by everyone.)

Get over it. You got nerfed, and if anything - we dont know if enought or not. The class with the changes applied still stays one of the strongest, and the only thing REALLY relevant that changed is that you cant solely rely on KB burst anymore, and has to use one more attack to kill enemy..

Acid blade does not give 30% damage buff.

Take the percent of the target you are fighting. Ill use my smuggler(medium armor) as an example.

23% Damage reduction, 50% of that is 11.5% more damage. With the nerf its 6.9% damage buff. The nerf will only really effect heavy armor targets such as Bounty Hunters/Troopers and Guardians/Juggs. Shoot first aside we really honestly will do roughly the same damage to Sorc/Sages.

Edited January 23, 2012 by Kyrandis

Batslav · January 23, 2012

as far as i know ur skill that knocks down the target used from stealth is 15 energy and deals 4-5k dmg atleast im often hit by such dmg... last 3 sec ?

assasins stealth skill thats similar (spike) deals max around maybe 700-800 if crit

cost 30 force and is 2 seconds hello ?

Lasica · January 23, 2012

Post this on the test realm forums, not here.

Bellatrix · January 23, 2012

as far as i know ur skill that knocks down the target used from stealth is 15 energy and deals 4-5k dmg atleast im often hit by such dmg... last 3 sec ?

assasins stealth skill thats similar (spike) deals max around maybe 700-800 if crit
cost 30 force and is 2 seconds hello ?

?

Yeah, and I can't turn my operative into a tank with a click of one button. Different classes, different abilities.

Raice · January 23, 2012

Another point being you talk about "critical damage" downplaying Acid Blades and the relevance of kb/stun - ignoring the fact that Acid Blade does internal damage.

All your other attacks do kinetic/energy damage, and acid blades on top of superb damage gives all your attacks basically around 30% damage buff (more if criticals are considered). For 15 seconds. Spammable ability. Which basically means - forever.

Yet you pretend the problem is not that you can KB/stun targets and kill or DPS them withing a stun (and somehow everyone overlook that 3sec KB cannot be "escaped" and right after target gets up you can root as it bypasses resolve it so "escaping" is problematic?)

Get over it. You got nerfed, and if anything - we dont know if enought or not. The class with the changes applied still stays one of the strongest, and the only thing REALLY relevant that changed is that you cant solely rely on KB burst anymore, and has to use one more attack to kill enemy..

Acid Blade does internal Damage because it is a Bleed that does comparable damage to the other Bleed we have - Vital Shot/Corrosive Dart. The Armor Penetration was there so we could apply damage to Heavier Armor with our other attacks. Whether we were meant to be able to fight them well or not is irrelevent. The point is we have to be able to do something - AP provides us with that ability. Was 50% too much? With the current Critical Damage we do - yes. Nerf the Critical Damage? No.

None of our Damaging Abilities are Spammable, and all of them require some sort of circumstance - Behind Target/Stealth/Bleeding/etc. You are either lying, or you simply do not know. They are Instant Casts - but they do have CD's. The only "spammable" attacks we have do damage below 500. These are not the attacks that kill you.

Our base Damage is non-existent. If it were so great, we wouldn't need Critical Hits and our Sustained Damage would be.... present. All of our Damage is based on Critical Hits. Because our our Critical Damage is so low, all of our big attacks require circumstances - Behind Target/Stealth/Bleeding/etc.

The problem is NOT that we can knock you down. The problem is that we can do so much Critical Damage before you get back up - I clearly said that in my post... which you did not read. If our Knockdown were such a big deal - don't you think they would have taken all of our stuns away? Think. If they take that away, we'd just do the same thing with another Stun, and you'd have the same problem you have now - except it would be worse, because we could stun you a second time as soon as that first one wore off. The reason the KO fills up your Resolve is precisely so we cannot stun you again.

I am over the fact that I got a nerf. I made that perfectly clear in my post. I was never arguing that we shouldn't be nerfed. You should really read things before you respond.

Thank you for your comment.

Batslav · January 23, 2012

yes but what i mean is its not normal to take half hp of someone with one click and dont forget that its cc type ability cause of the knock down effect

Tumba · January 23, 2012

hmmm yea no. Nerf is awesome. It doesn't hurt "everybody" as a matter of fact I am going to resub b/c of it. (maybe BW maybe my eyes are on you)

Raice · January 23, 2012

In all fairness I think these changes are pretty good.

Simply because the damage reduction wont really kill the ability, and the KO duration needs to be fixed so people can actually react. I do not mind high damage at all, aslong as me as a player can actively use my abilities to be able to avoid it.

Hence being able to outplay people and coming out on top, which I am sure you know is not the case with the current state of Operatives.

The K.O should not give a full Resolve bar after this nerf though, and Operatives should be pretty well balanced I think.

The main problem in this game right now, I think, is how Resolve (doesnt) work. Its just a really odd CC system overall and I dont really like it at all, needs to be fixed.

The KO duration is only 3s. This is a fairly short Stun duration considering what else is out there. It seems like it's too much, because we do so much damage to you in those 3s. Reduce our Critical Damage (which is what makes us so powerful) and this 3s duration will be a cakewalk for you.

You guys have to start seeing this:

3s Stun is standard - every class can do this (probably longer.) The Critical Damage is not standard - no other class can do the Crit Damage we do in such a short amount of time to one target.

The current play state of Scrapper/Concealment vaires. Our rotation is relatively easy. What isn't easy is when we aren't doing the rotation. This DOES happen, you know? When we aren't in Rotation - it's pretty difficult. We are doing a lot. I'm trying to show that when you reduce our Critical Damage - our Rotation will not devastate you, and we will be forced into a situation where it is much more difficult for us. You have to look at the big picture here.

You ARE correct about Resolve, however. It is totally FUBARed.

Orangerascal · January 23, 2012

You can't touch the 30% critical damage because every dps class has the same talent. That's not the issue.

If you're going to nerf anytype of damage it should be the base damage of some abilities. Scoundrel and OPS have ridiculously high base abilities for damage. You take the high base damage + gear scaling + 30% talent + surge and you have a recipe for disaster. One of these 4 items has to go.

I have a scoundrel alt (level 30ish) which is killing things so much quicker than my sorc did or sentinel alt does with little downtime (due to pugnacity). Again this is even before the 30% damage talent, which tells me that bioware should look into the base damage.

Edited January 23, 2012 by Orangerascal

Raice · January 23, 2012

as far as i know ur skill that knocks down the target used from stealth is 15 energy and deals 4-5k dmg atleast im often hit by such dmg... last 3 sec ?

assasins stealth skill thats similar (spike) deals max around maybe 700-800 if crit
cost 30 force and is 2 seconds hello ?

So you're saying that my 4-5k Critical Hit will equate to the Assassin 700-800 Critical Hit if you remove the Knockdown?

Look - if you want to balance that out:

REDUCE THE CRITICAL DAMAGE

We do not have a single ability that does over 1.8k Damage in a single shot - considering we have to be in Stealth, behind the Target to use it.... I think that's a good number. It's the Critical Damage applied to it that makes it 4-6k.

The Knock Down has nothing to do with it.

A serious look at the Smug/Op nerf - a better solution for 1.11? [long read]

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