I have won all of your examples and nothing feels better than to come late and actually make a difference. I'm also glad when early quitters are replaced with ppl who love a challenge (usually the good pvp'ers) and try to win against the odds. You peeps complain that loosing with "bads" takes up too much of your time and don't understand that playing against the odds developes your own skills. But then again, many people play to get gear advantage and ignore skill. I can see why loosing is hurting you.

Yes, but by definition e-sports is any kind of competitive digital (video) gaming. And I didn't mention mmo's either (although there are mmo tournaments held all the time, for example televised EVE Alliance tournament every year, ten years in a row now, with audience of tens of thousands, and Guild Wars monthly tournament ladder with matches that other players can observe and e-peen prices for winners, GW also used to have tournaments where best teams around the world would go to, in Korea f.ex). I called on your statement mainly because you only mentioned fps gaming as e-sport. Also, having league and cash prices don't change the fact that e-sports exist in lot's of games and game types.

Way to contradict yourself. I don't have time to browse Digital Culture and Game Studies literature right now so wikipedia will have to do: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_sports

Hahaha, witty fellow.

- Spawning and still in combat or not in full health, even dotted sometimes - Sniper/GS: In Voidstar spawning in cover-animation when second round starts if you have been in cover when first round ends. You are not actually in cover when this happens, just in crouched position and gliding on the floor. Can't use but handful of skills and can't use cover. Sometimes dying fixes it, sometimes not. Been around for ages, haven't been solved. - Sniper/GS: Using Hunker Down/Entrench sometimes (and often enough to be really annoying) doesn't give you cc immunity. In fact I have had every stun, mezz and kb in game bypass the cc immunity after the buff has been active for several seconds (i.e over 4 secs). Might still be related to the GCD bugging or lag, but it's weird that nothing else get's affected and my skill is on cd. Has been around for a long time and hasn't been fixed. This bug might also exist in pve, but since mobs rarely use cc and you rarely use the buff in pve, it's hard to tell. - Perma stun. I think you are actually stuck in stun-animation rather than being perma stunned. When this has happened to me (and i have screens with chat time stamps to prove that I've have been stunned for over 20secs before getting killed by some random passer by [the stun itself has not ended]) I have eventually: - Spawning as dead or just can't move after spawn. Like the bug above, I think you are stuck in the animation. This results in you being removed from wz. * All of the above have happened to me dozens of times (except perma stun, which is hard to detect since you usually die before you can reliably say that you were permanently stunned) and I have seen them happening to others countless times. I would not report these if they were isolated incidents.

The only reply in this thread worth reading if you wanna be serious about this. Also, you get better by losing some and learning from that, not by rolling every match with superior gear/skill/class composition. And to those of you that can't detect the irony in OP post:

What "PvP"ers like you will never undestand is that some people want a level playfield to test their skill, and it works both ways. Even if I would be in full augmented WH, I would not fully enjoy PvP since my gear is a big factor when I'm up against lesser geared players. Get it? And please don't say "go play SC2, because a system like that don't work in mmo's." Guess what, it works in mmo's and it works very well. It's just bad game design if in some mmo it does not work. I can't understand why cosmetic rewards are not enough in PvP for some people. And comparing PvE grind to PvP is pointless, it's a whole different thing. You are playing against programmed encounter in PvE, not other players. You are testing whole different set of skills in the two. I have accepted that PvP is what it is in SWTOR. I even like it. But it's still frustrating to see that it could be much better. And it's frustrating to see people wanting, even craving, their gear advantage over other players.

I play on the now largest (and only really active?) pvp server on Europe. I have leveled my lvl 39 alt basically in WZ. I have never seen anyone doing 400k damage. I've seen 300k+ 2 times within 3 weeks. Both times it wasn't powertech/vanguard. Stop throwing random numbers in the air and using them as basis for your argument. Can 400k be done sub 50? Of course. But it almost never happens, and if it does, it's probably a twinked toon or a really healer heavy team on the opposite side.

First of all, this thread is not about class balance. Skill, gear, (legacy) buffs. This is what SWTOR pvp is made of. This probably won't ever change because it's part of the game design, so why argue. There will not be a time when you enter pvp and have level playing field. There will most likely always be someone in better gear and more buffs. That will also mean that there will quite possibly be someone in worse gear. SWTOR rewards for both skill and grind. Many people like this and it's pointless to argue that the system is bad. It's a matter of opinion. On the other hand, to those people who say that mmo's are always like this (gear progression grind), I'd like to say you are wrong. Different mmo's have different systems, so please don't go saying things that are not true or you have no idea about. As much as many of you hate to hear it, GW1 and GW2, for example, have different system altogether. So let's accept that SWTOR is like this and continue to put our energy on something more useful, like arguing about class balance =) And just to let you know: no, I'm not in full augmented and modded WH gear with all legacy buffs

Well, if you wanna just pvp you are basically forced to pve if you wanna keep your gear up to date, so I don't see the problem. It's all about compromises. Besides, it's not like you really need a starter gear for pve. If you wanna make that comparison you have to compare BM then to WH now, not BM then to BM now.

Umm, if your gear is up to date there should mostly be no problems, depending a bit on your class of course. Some classes are not good until certain point (because of the skills they get) and some kick *** even before 20. The systems however seems fine to me. I'm waiting on that answer on how bolster works though.

How does the bolster system work?

10-49 wz: more balanced 50 wz: better (more experienced) players Any way to combine the two?

It's not needed. Any other major advantage besides skill is for players who are really not that good at pvp or afraid that they won't be good (even if they would be) or just are a-holes who want huge advantage over others with combined skill and gear. I would also like to point out that this vote is kinda useless since the premises are not clear. People now have different notions on what a different pvp system would incorporate. Now there are peeps who vote 'needed' so that pve gear would not dominate. Then there are peeps like me who vote 'not needed' that assume that there would not be any kind of gear advantage in pvp (i.e the pve gear would not be a factor either).

Those of us who want a fair fight (meaning that gear is not a factor) can't get it in this game. I do enjoy most of the pvp aspects in SWTOR, but I'll be moving on when GW2 hits the stands. If people want a gear advantage and/or gear grind, they are welcome to it. It's just not my thing and not what I look for in pvp.

I basically agree with you. I have over a decade of mmo pvp experience myself and imo whenever trinity is involved, balance is not. It's a bit more complicated than that though. For competitive team play dedicated healing is perfectly fine. It's actually pretty typical sports setting with people filling different roles. But it only really works when teams are premade. When any kind of random/pug teams are involved, healing (or trinity) breaks pvp. The outcome becomes heavily predetermined by the team composition. So these very random elements start to dominate outcome instead of player skill. So, although trinity based pvp can be really fun and challenging in a tournament style setting, it can be very very frustrating in random pvp.

But they can't jump you if you're in cover, unless they cc you out first. If you use Hunker Down you are impossible to jump to. Anyway, your example seems like a really rare (and funny) occasion

True, but in my mind I was thinking about the railings and balconies that are snipers best friends. I find it a bit strange that there are so few maps with these "height differences". Most maps are just flat ground and LOS elements. Not very sniper friendly.

Sniper/GS has the tools, but so do maras. Their defensive cd's are extremely effective against MM/SS sniper/GS and the damage, if they get to apply it, drops sniper/GS really fast since snipers/GSs can't clean dots. And we must remember that it's rarely 1vs1 where sniper gets to control just the mara. In situations where more players are involved maras have the upper hand imo. Anyway, if both mara and sniper have all cd's up, I'd say mara wins against ss/mm spec on a flat ground (or at least can disengage at will, something that sniper can't do). Just my opinion though.

Because Snipers/Gunslingers are perhaps the best class <50 if played properly. All this counter-mara talk is bs imo. Counter means relatively easy kill and (good) maras are not that to a (good) sniper. Sniper/GS also isn't 3 button smash class. You have to know your skills to be effective or even to stay alive. It's a hard class to play because of the poor survivability. I just rolled a powertech and I have to say it's my pvp vacation compared to Sniper/GS (I have both sniper and gs at 50 with bm/wh). That being said, the class is the most fun I've had in SWTOR, both pvp and pve.

Hunker Down is definitely not working properly. I have had almost every form of cc going through it after 1.2. It's even worse when you use natural cover spots. Some issues may be due lag, but I've been repeatedly stunned (normal stun, not choke etc.) or KB:d after the HD has been active for several seconds. It is really frustrating since you are already playing a class that has very little going for it and then a major defense skill is badly broken.

Some reasons for Huttball hate: 1. Some people don't like it 2. It favors force users (the actual ball game that is) 3. The side with more players has to play it all the time Personally I like it a lot and it's the most fun map, but I have to say that being a sniper and imp it gets tedious sometimes. Can't play ball, 4/5 wz matches are huttball. On the other hand, it's also the most versatile map for a sniper imo and you can really work the narrow catwalks, hight differences and fires to your advantage.

Just my opinion. I must say that I haven't bothered to study all the immunity/deflect skills melee has in this game. 1vs1 is usually waste of time imo if you wanna be useful and therefore I'm not the best at it. I like to use my cc somewhere else than to wait out some marauders shield. When I have to 1vs1 I usually do pretty well, but I suspect that many of those fights are against lesser geared/skilled players. There are some melee (especially shadows/sins) on my server that I haven't been able to drop in 1vs1, not even close, and I believe that sniper can't drop a tank shadow, period. As for the gear, I'm basically in as good gear as it gets. The slots I have that are not modded BM are not that important statwise.

Hehe, one of the best PvP videos I've ever seen! Loved the music too.

Have to try that next time. I'm not technically in cover though when this bug happens, but maybe it's some kind of limbo in between