aznthecapn Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 (edited) Or that I just have little need for the skill mentor and little need for your insults.. Thanks!! You found him didn't you! I saw your original post and now you've edited it realizing I was right and your sour grapes attitude wasn't warranted. Hilarious. Both are positioned in one of the final cubbies of the Combat Training section of the fleet. Go say hi now that I've enlightened you! Edited January 23, 2012 by aznthecapn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
invispoet Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 Do you understand what dual spec is and what it does?? Are you even familiar with group make up and hot it can effect raid difficulty.. Boss A only needs 2 tanks for the fight.. Boss B needs 4 tanks.. Get it?? Our group has 2 tanks, 2 healers, and 4 DPS.. Without dual speccing, we will have to kill both bosses with what have.. Not the easiest thing to do.. With dual speccing it is a lot easier because you can change group make up.. Your questions are irrelevent because you missed the point. What part of group makeup do you not understand?? See?? This is why I feel that there are no reasons for dual speccing.. Reading his post.. How could I believe otherwise?? He isn't even addressing the issue.. How dual speccing effects the game and other players.. Do bosses have less hp/do less damage because dual spec is in the game? Why would it effect this?? Do players do more damage/healing because they can dual spec? Again, why would it effect this?? Do you know what dual speccing is?? Do bosses drop more loot because dual spec is in the game? Why would it effect this?? Do you not know what loot tables are and how they work??Do players gain/lose 10 points of IQ because dual spec is in the game? If dual speccing really effected people's IQ.. Do you think we would be talking about it?? Do players become invincible because they can swap specs? I can see that you just have no clue what dual speccing is.. Let us know when you figure it out.. My whole post was in reference to someone esle saying that dual spec makes the game 'ez mode", and me pointing out reasons where that is blatantly false. on top of that, the 2 tanks/4 tank fight is a game design issue, not a dual spec issue. So far, in current content, All encounter iv'e seen (in 8 man, 4 man normals/heroics, and 16 man normals) have required 0-2 tanks. In your example, If a boss required 4 tanks, you can STILL kill it now, you just have to have 2 ppl respec. All dual spec does is make it take less time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MajikMyst Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 The slippery slope concept is a theory and one easily halted in gaming. You're making a mountain out of a molehill by assuming something as basic and harmless as dual spec can actually lead to those things.. It is an accurate theory.. Seen the threads asking for AC speccing or AC switching?? Dual speccing is not harmless.. Case closed.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MajikMyst Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 You found him didn't you! I saw your original post and now you've edited it realizing I was right and your sour grapes attitude wasn't warranted. Hilarious. Both are positioned in one of the final cubbies of the Combat Training section of the fleet. Go say hi now that I've enlightened you! Yes I found him.. But know where he is has no bearing on this discussion.. Nor has it changed your attitude I see.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aznthecapn Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 It is an accurate theory.. Seen the threads asking for AC speccing or AC switching?? Dual speccing is not harmless.. Case closed.. Those have been around just as long. They are there because people have the notion that your advanced class isn't your class and think it should be changed. I disagree. If we had selected Assassin or Guardian at level 1 instead of level 10, you wouldn't see them asking for it. Asking for dual spec doesn't lead to asking for AC respec. Look at World of Warcraft - dual spec for quite a while and you almost never see requests to change your class. People there realize that the classes are notably different. People here don't see that yet. Apples and oranges. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaxRendar Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 (edited) LOL sure kid..sure If you can respec on the fly. It pratically destroys the class and trinity system as we have an MMO where everyone can practically do every job on the fly. Its a class based MMO, if you want to respec. You should pay the price as then it keeps the class based system in check. Sorry to rain on your parade, but Dual Spec is coming: http://www.swtor.com/news/news-article/20110916 (5th question in the Q&A Section) Q: Since it has been clearly stated that there will not be dual specs for characters in the game, can you explain your philosophy behind the skill trees and how you are taking into account players that want to be able to play PvP and PvE content on the same character? - illumineart A: Dual Speccing is something we want to add soon after launch. Also, features like Guard, PvP Taunt, Resolve, etc. work to narrow the gap between PvP and PvE specialized skills (i.e. a +Block skill would be helpful in both PvE and PvP). Let me guess, you will be asking for Advanced class respecing next. No, I have no interest in them adding that at all. Some of use like to fill groups with our friends quickly or use different specs for PvP/PvE. If I want a Sage and a Shadow, I'll level one of each. But I'd like to be able play my Sage as I choose with my friends Edited January 23, 2012 by DaxRendar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aznthecapn Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 Yes I found him.. But know where he is has no bearing on this discussion.. Nor has it changed your attitude I see.. Its something you were wrong about. Not just wrong but belligerently wrong. You were wrong and offensive about the notion that I was right. It shakes every argument you've made thus far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MajikMyst Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 (edited) Its something you were wrong about. Not just wrong but belligerently wrong. You were wrong and offensive about the notion that I was right. It shakes every argument you've made thus far. I will openly admit when I am wrong.. Not something I have seen from you.. Instead of actually addressing the reasons I have given, that you asked for no less.. You called me argumentitive.. Why should I actually care if there is a 'Skill Mentor' on the fleet stations?? Like that have anything to do with the issue at large.. I have been playing for 6 months on the beta. He was always on the capital worlds and that was it.. Since I haven't used the skill mentor or gone looking for him?? Why would I know and why would should you feel any smarter because you know.. Why should you tell someone they can't talk about something just becuase they don't know where a vendor is?? In either case, I have given a number of reasons as to why we don't need dual speccing.. Used straw man arguements, and simply denied the facts of the reasons given.. I have yet to see from you or anyone else a viable reason for dual speccing that didn't revolve around easy and more conveneint.. How can you all say it isn't easy mode when your own reasons are to make things easier?? So there is a skill mentor on the fleet stations.. Guess we don't need dual speccing.. Since it is already so easy to change your spec now.. Do you really need the button?? You ignore the realities of the slippery slope and how it has been playing out in these very forums.. Here we are talking about dual speccs.. In other threads they are talking about Dual AC's.. What is next?? It has already started and your denial doesn't change the facts.. Just look at the progression for WOW.. They introduce dual speccing into the game.. Countless nerfs to the Lich King raids.. Ninja looting is up, everyone is needing on off spec.. They introduce a cross realm LFG system, which makes it all worse.. All in the name of easy and convenient.. Here we are a few years later.. People are one shotting 'Death Wing' because they have had to make raids so insanely easy because people can no longer play their characters or play as a team.. Your right it is a community issue.. A community that has become spoiled and pampered.. A community that no longer wants to think for itself.. A community that thinks an MMO should be both convenient and easy.. A community that simply lacks the skill to properly play an MMO.. When 'Mists of Pandera' comes out.. WOW will no longer any skill trees of any kind.. Nor will it have dual speccing.. Many other people, like myself don't want this to be the ultimate fate of SWTOR.. We do not need dual speccing.. I have yet to see any positives to dual speccing.. Easy and convenient are for many, the reasons not to have dual speccing.. Not reasons for.. To the person that mentioned that dual speccing was already confirmed.. Bioware has also said that they reserve the right to change their mind based on what the community says and their own research.. A good rule of thumb here or for any game is simply this.. Nothing is confirmed unless it is in the game.. When something is in the game, then and only then can it really be considered confirmed.. I am sure they are watching this thread very closely.. And like me, they see the same thing.. The people that want it are either unwilling or unable to actaully address this issue in a logical manner.. Other than simply dismissing what other people say or questioning their intelligence or claiming they don't know enough to talk about something because they didn't know where a vendor was.. Nobody is really giving Bioware or anyone else an actual viable reason for dual speccing.. PVP is not a reason.. Bioware has said countless times that we are supposed to PVP in our PVE specs.. Just start watching some of the movies that are posted in this site.. Edited January 23, 2012 by MajikMyst Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dargor- Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 (edited) Dual Specs are coming, the only remaining question is how soon? Edited January 23, 2012 by dargor- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaxRendar Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 (edited) How dare you Majik!!! I will openly admit when I am wrong.. In either case, I have given a number of reasons as to why we don't need dual speccing.. Used straw man arguements, and simply denied the facts of the reasons given.. You ignore the realities of the slippery slope and how it has been playing out in these very forums.. Here we are talking about dual speccs.. In other threads they are talking about Dual AC's.. What is next?? It has already started and your denial doesn't change the facts.. Just look at the progression for WOW.. They introduce dual speccing into the game.. Countless nerfs to the Lich King raids.. Ninja looting is up, everyone is needing on off spec.. They introduce a cross realm LFG system, which makes it all worse.. All in the name of easy and convenient.. Here we are a few years later.. People are one shotting 'Death Wing' because they have had to make raids so insanely easy because people can no longer play their characters or play as a team.. Your right it is a community issue.. A community that has become spoiled and pampered.. A community that no longer wants to think for itself.. A community that thinks an MMO should be both convenient and easy.. A community that simply lacks the skill to properly play an MMO.. When 'Mists of Pandera' comes out.. WOW will no longer any skill trees of any kind.. Nor will it have dual speccing.. Many other people, like myself don't want this to be the ultimate fate of SWTOR.. We do not need dual speccing.. I have yet to see any positives to dual speccing.. Easy and convenient are for many, the reasons not to have dual speccing.. Not reasons for.. PVP is not a reason.. Bioware has said countless times that we are supposed to PVP in our PVE specs.. Just start watching some of the movies that are posted in this site.. You dare to accuse someone else of Strawman arguments and then do nothing but make them yourself? You sir are the epitome of a hypocrite! The nerfs in WoW had nothing to do with Dual Spec at all. NOTHING! Damage Meters, Threat Meters, and Boss Mods had far more to do with WoW Raid Encounters becoming easy/repetitive. I dare you to find a single post from the Blizzard Devs saying the reason they made things easier was Dual Spec. Forcing me to play a Healer in a Warzone or level a 2nd AC solely for the purpose of PvP is the height of arrogance, selfishness, and aggrandizement on your part. Healing in Warzones is NOTHING like healing in PvE and you are an incredibly self-absorbed person to feel that BioWare giving me the ability to play a different spec in PvE and PvP without the hassle and cost of constant respecting is somehow an affront or assault or even affects you in any way! Dual Spec is coming. I am very thankful that it is. Allowing more groups to form faster and easier for Flashpoints is a HUGE boon to the success and longevity of the game. People will not keep playing if a shortage of Tanks keeps people from being able to group up in a reasonable amount of time. I've played in MMOs with them. I've played in ones without them. And the benefits to the community far outweighed any perceived drawbacks (of which I can't think of any that could be solely attributed to Dual Spec). I know you don't want it. I know you feel strongly about it. But I guarantee as much as you feel you are being logical, it is you who are being irrational. Edited January 23, 2012 by DaxRendar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dargor- Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 Ignore majik, he's obviously a troll. All the crap he keeps spouting about WoW just proves he never played for more than 2 weeks or he's just plain lying to make a point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raigirin Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 /signed for dual spec or lower respec costs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lestari Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 (edited) I think it is ridiculous they haven't implemented Dual-Spec. In order to play the game how i would like is Heal for PVE and Dps for PVP. Why should it cost me a stupid amount of money for every flashpoint i want to do..... I cannot believe i am the only person who likes to play different roles for different events.... Apparently it is coming.......just hurry up already!!!!! Edited January 23, 2012 by Lestari Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dargor- Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 Bumping for the lol of it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aznthecapn Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 I will openly admit when I am wrong.. Not something I have seen from you... If I needed to, I would. Just look at the progression for WOW.. They introduce dual speccing into the game.. Countless nerfs to the Lich King raids.. Ninja looting is up, everyone is needing on off spec.. They introduce a cross realm LFG system, which makes it all worse.. All in the name of easy and convenient.. Here we are a few years later.. People are one shotting 'Death Wing' because they have had to make raids so insanely easy because people can no longer play their characters or play as a team.. Your right it is a community issue.. A community that has become spoiled and pampered.. A community that no longer wants to think for itself.. A community that thinks an MMO should be both convenient and easy.. A community that simply lacks the skill to properly play an MMO.. When 'Mists of Pandera' comes out.. WOW will no longer any skill trees of any kind.. Nor will it have dual speccing.. Many other people, like myself don't want this to be the ultimate fate of SWTOR.. . You haven't played WoW. None of this is true. We do not need dual speccing.. I have yet to see any positives to dual speccing.. Easy and convenient are for many, the reasons not to have dual speccing.. Not reasons for.. To the person that mentioned that dual speccing was already confirmed.. Bioware has also said that they reserve the right to change their mind based on what the community says and their own research.. A good rule of thumb here or for any game is simply this.. Nothing is confirmed unless it is in the game.. When something is in the game, then and only then can it really be considered confirmed.. I am sure they are watching this thread very closely.. And like me, they see the same thing.. The people that want it are either unwilling or unable to actaully address this issue in a logical manner.. Other than simply dismissing what other people say or questioning their intelligence or claiming they don't know enough to talk about something because they didn't know where a vendor was.. Nobody is really giving Bioware or anyone else an actual viable reason for dual speccing.. We've given many. You disagreeing with them doesn't make them nonviable. PVP is not a reason.. Bioware has said countless times that we are supposed to PVP in our PVE specs.. Just start watching some of the movies that are posted in this site.. What Bioware says they WANT us to do (which isn't they said, they said they feel all specs are useful in PvP) and what WE want to do are two very different things. PvP is a very good reason for dual spec, you don't have to agree to make it true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faetan Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 Did it ever occur to you that we would just bring what we need before we raid?? Usually when I put together a group, I know what we will be facing and will be prepared.. And who said anything about nightmare bosses?? Can we stay in the realm of reality here?? You not making any points here.. Nobody is going to fight a nightmare boss without fighting him in normal and getting the gear.. So everyone will know the fight and have the gear.. Dual speccing isn't the holy grail for raiding..I am sorry that reality of raiding is what it is.. It isn't mine nor is it how we do things in my guild.. We don't step foot into an operation unless we know what bosses we have available to us to fight and we have a group that is will suited for all of them.. No dual speccing required.. All classes have a ton of CC.. I can pretty much freeze any bot for 60sec.. There are other things we can do to survive and down the boss.. This comes from being good at your characters.. There is more to this game than just tank and spank.. Dual speccing isn't the holy grail you all seem to think it is.. Still no reason to have dual speccing stated.. Do I need to make my point clear? Boss encounters change mid raid the group composition required. easy example bonethrasher followed by jindo krey in karagas bonethrasher needs one tank jindo requires two......... Also I dont know if your actually hitting operations at all because all bosses have immunity to stuns movement impairing effects etc...... Go play the game and then talk to us once you actually experience on something above normal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faetan Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 A large bench?? You do know that we have companions?? They can perform any role.. If you are doing a 16 man operation.. Just leave 2 or 4 slots open for companions.. Problem solved.. No bench required.. Yes this sums up my arguement form my previous post. Actually start doing end game content above normal and then come back here and argue, until then you have no idea. LOL companions in place of real players, L2Play Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sai-to Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 In either case, I have given a number of reasons as to why we don't need dual speccing.. Used straw man arguements, and simply denied the facts of the reasons given.. While you've given "reasons" why YOU don't think we need them, you haven't ever given any objective reasons why Dual spec shouldn't be in the game and why you should deny it for those that want to use it. But the point is moot since Dual spec is coming. The only question is when "soon after launch" is. I'm hoping 1.2, personally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DonHonChi Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 (edited) If the dual spec is really coming, then the respec cost can be lowered to 0 until its done. To be honest, I can live with taking the talents each time I have to respec. Its not that hard if you don't have to google them. So dual spec or lower respec cost. But as it is now, people are force to either PvP in their PvE specs with tons of usless PvP talents or they can go on Operations with slacky PvP specs, which affects all other players in the operation or in PvP zone. Basicly what changes people are forced to play their class in a way they don't want to. So its the oposite of what you wanted to archive. Edited January 25, 2012 by DonHonChi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dharst Posted February 4, 2012 Share Posted February 4, 2012 So far the chief reason I see for anyone speaking against this is somewhere along the lines of "dual specing makes things convenience and I don't like things convenient therefore no one should have access to a feature that improves convenience". Sort of like saying "I like to suffer so we should all suffer together". OR they think if they are playing the least favorite aspect- that someone they will find groups easier because they are 'most needed'. Good Tanks, Good Healers, Good DPS- is needed all the time. If you a Poor player- I don't care how much a group needs that role filled- you will not be it. We need dual-spec. There is too much instanced content as you level to avoid needing full healers and full tanks; yet it been said plenty already... these roles don't level well on their own. Hybrids just don't cut it as the primary role and respec costs are prohibitive unless you really intended there to be one toon that was 20 levels over the instance level to carry folks through content? I doubt it and yet- that's what we normally have to do after struggling for 2 hours- someone grabs their level 50... problem solved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noxulifer Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 On my server healers is a rare thing, it is as bad as sometimes it takes an hour to find a healer, or sometimes the party just have to disband after a while since a healer or tank is missing. It´s too often to be ok, I don´t understand how switching between speccs would be a bad thing for the overall game? I mean, you can only have one specc at a time. I don´t know if this is something they are thinking about? But, if they were, I would like a system like now where you have to go to a capital but maybe pay a small amount. Not to switch between speccs where ever you want... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fallenellaf Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 Dual spec is a good idea for people who want to do both pvp and pve. I go for that. Now for respec cost, its there for a reason, to prevent people from respec, so having a cap is not what i want but I would love to see the cost going back down if you dont respec for like a month, but if you change every day, the cost should go UP UP UP! anyways this is not an important issue in the game right now. There are other things that need to be fixed or changed first imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obzenia Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 The dual-spec is coming! The dual-spec is coming! http://www.swtor.com/news/news-article/20110916 All you Chicken Littles can go back inside, the world is not going to end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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