Archaegeo Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 It is silly that noone will pvp with a 31 pt TK or Bal spec. Or if they do, they dont for long. Issues: Balance - Just no survivability. The heals from dot crits? a Joke, 140-150 every once in a while, even if it was every second, it does nothing to mitigate the damage we are taking. The damage done is a joke as well: Weaken Mind - 1653 over 21 sec Sever Force - 1631 over 18 sec Mind Crush - 1042 instant, 1450 over 8 sec (assuming max hits) FiB -1307 up to 3 targets, heals for 91 per taret hit. TK Throw - 2735 over 2.91 sec, no heal from i. Come on, there is not even any long term damage there besides spamming tk throw. The problem with TK tree is it all requires you to stop to cast. And even then, the damage numbers dont come close to what we get hit by heavy armor wearing guys. When a guy gets to wear heavy armor, and hit for 3-4k a hit, thats silly. Don't get me wrong, I love being a sage, even if we cant turtle for crap as a 31pt seer spec. But we are supposed to be glass cannons I think? Yet only the glass part seems present. Yes, I can put up big numbers in a wz, but if I dont have a guard on me, then its just dead anytime i get any sort of attention. If it is 1 on 1, maybe I can cycle CC enough to kill him, in fact often can, but only as a hybrid spec. So my point being, maybe make the 31pt abilities something worth having. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdamLKvist Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 I dont even know what to say Balance is amazing for PvP, by far the most utility you get from Seer, that nonsense hybrid build (dishes out loads of damage but provides in no shape or form more utility than the Balance tree)... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tufy Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 (edited) I dont even know what to say Balance is amazing for PvP, by far the most utility you get from Seer, that nonsense hybrid build (dishes out loads of damage but provides in no shape or form more utility than the Balance tree)... Respectfuly, I disagree. The only thing Full Balance has over 0/13/28 hybrid is a tiny bit of selfhealing and Sever Force, both of which are ofset by loads more burst in the hybrid build. Overall, this makes TK/balance almost equal to full Balance in control situations, while being far more effective in executions. Tk on the other hand has a tiny bit better Aoe (forcequake procs tk wave), but lacks mobility of the balance and hybrid specs. It's not really a problem with either Sever Force or Turbulence, it's just that hybrid is more effective, that's all. Edited January 22, 2012 by tufy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zedzorander Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 Hey there. Not sure how serious you are with this post OP. Balance is not only the best spec for pvp, but is arguably the best spec/class for pvp. It shines in both 1v1 encounters and is incredible in group play. Are you being serious? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CallsignRazgriz Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 I disagree with you on 31 point Balance. It has superior control and is incredibly survivable if you use Sever force right. I do, however, agree that, in comparison to the hybrid spec, 31 point TK is incredibly weak. Its all glass and no cannon. I rolled a gunslinger for the giggles and I discovered the glass cannon playstyle that I thought sage would be. TK needs some attention. I don't think it should be a carbon copy of gunslinger, but we should gain something for standing still and exposing ourselfs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alikain Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 Balance was design with Pvp in mind which makes it more mobile then Tele spec. But say that i have to agree with the OP because right now hybrid build like /0/13/28 have more burst then 31pt Tk build. Tele Tree need more work and am hoping bioware will work on it sooner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NogbadAC Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 Something most certainly needs to be done with the Tele tree. Which has been discussed to death. The only reason I'm playing the standard 13/28 over full Tk is because I feel the tk tree needs work. Regardless of how much I may enjoy a lot of what the talents say, they don't perform. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JBloom Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 I agree that the tk tree needs more burst. Balance tree is pretty solid though. Would be nice to be able to get rejuvenate earlier in seer tree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archaegeo Posted January 23, 2012 Author Share Posted January 23, 2012 I really love 21/20 or 23/18 tk/bal, gives you lots of survivability and burst. I really can't see 13/28, this doesn't seem much better than 31 bal. For those of you saying bal is best pvp spec, please enlighten me. Seriously, the dps you put out is so small unless you are just doting the other team for scoreboard stats, but to me, when I try it out, you just can't take people down fast enough with 31 bal, nor as I see it, 13/28 Share the build of 13/28? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warhowl Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 Seriously you really need to spend more time in spec with decent pvp gear to appreciate just how awesome balance is..................nuff said On the tk front yep pvp takes some skill to pull this one off, it is mainly a PVE skill set but i took it to WZ's tonight and kept my distance, LOS ranged, kited melee etc. One of the hardest things to kill for has always been healing sorceror's..........pop a relic and alacrity and hit those skills BOOM! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archaegeo Posted January 23, 2012 Author Share Posted January 23, 2012 Seriously, all that spec does is assist others in killing. Otherwise compares with tk heavy bal spec, they die much faster. Seriously. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warhowl Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 The problem is the way your playing the class, I very rarely lose 1v1 in Balance spec. Im thinking your gear is probably rubbish atm and your not seeing the true effect those dots have. Quoting tooltips is a silly way to justify your reasoning as you take no consideration for crits, relics, adrenals etc..............you also forgot to mention the bonus force in balance gives to your dots. Several Sages have commented in this thread about the strength of balance in PVP your either unwilling to accept its potential or unable to grasp the spec. The Hybrid spec is fun but most of that damage your seeing is in fact AOE and not particularly focused When you consider the issues some melee classes are suffering atm compaired with our fairly awesome tree's im struggling to understand your complaints. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rabits Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 The problem is the way your playing the class, I very rarely lose 1v1 in Balance spec. Im thinking your gear is probably rubbish atm and your not seeing the true effect those dots have. Quoting tooltips is a silly way to justify your reasoning as you take no consideration for crits, relics, adrenals etc..............you also forgot to mention the bonus force in balance gives to your dots. Several Sages have commented in this thread about the strength of balance in PVP your either unwilling to accept its potential or unable to grasp the spec. The Hybrid spec is fun but most of that damage your seeing is in fact AOE and not particularly focused When you consider the issues some melee classes are suffering atm compaired with our fairly awesome tree's im struggling to understand your complaints. lol how do you beat gunslinger and trooper 1v1? **** noob! Stop assuming people's gears are bad it takes 2 days pvp for lvl50 to get over 400 experties with pvp gears. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archaegeo Posted January 23, 2012 Author Share Posted January 23, 2012 (edited) I have all champion gear, 11.96% expertise values, and do just fine with hybrid spec. And I guarentee it burns someone down faster than 31 balance, and MORE importantly, with the force wave stun and the collapsing bubble stun from TK and the instant force lift from balance has a TON more survivability than pure 31 balance. But you go on assuming everyone is scrubs, rather than presenting intelligent data (tooltips you dont like? give better data) or other arguements, calling people names is much easier. Oh, and it is rarely 1v1 in pvp. Which is why the survivability of the hybrid spec I mention above matters so much more. Edited January 23, 2012 by Archaegeo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warhowl Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 lol how do you beat gunslinger and trooper 1v1? **** noob! Stop assuming people's gears are bad it takes 2 days pvp for lvl50 to get over 400 experties with pvp gears. A well presented mature answer GG! Clearly this is an issue your having............as i said i can only "assume" you have bad gear as this is not a problem that has forced me to come to the forums crying, unless of course you just stand there and try to have a stand off? And guys calling me a noob when your the ones complaining you dont have the skill set to eazy win!!! Finally why create a post if its just a complain thread where all you want to do is rage on someone who disagrees with you? I take it your well geared and still struggling to do well in WZ's......................oh dear and im the noob! Enjoy your day Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grundeg Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 The biggest benefit to Sever Force isn't the damage it does, or that it heals on crits or even that it roots people. It's that it roots people without touching the resolve bar. It gives a huge boost in survivability against melee. That said, I play 13/28. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archaegeo Posted January 23, 2012 Author Share Posted January 23, 2012 (edited) Nod, I can see the benefit of Sever. Not arguing it, especially if it doesnt touch resolve (bug?) I just do not see the damage from bal, which takes 8, 18, 21 sec to impact, being worth the loss of instant cast TK wave/mind crush ever TK Throw or every other. Ie, the hybrid spec allows me to pop a crush, project, and FiB all in the space of 3 gcd hitting for 5k+ (depending on crits is + amount) Edited January 23, 2012 by Archaegeo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JBloom Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 Right now I'm using 7/18/16 and I like it. I think the reduced cooldown on force speed, the bubble stun break and the force wave root are crucial skills to have in warzones. I also like having tk effusion and psychic projection along with the PoM procs. I also extended the duration of weaken mind and took focused insight since my two piece force master champ set already heals me on mind crush, i might as well get a little extra healing on my dots. I like the shortened cooldown on deliverance as well as the crit bonus in seer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bthrawn Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 I've played 13/28 and now play a 3/7/31. As 13/28 jedi knights/sith mirrors would just destroy me. Jugg's love to jump on me and just stick like glue. There isn't enough GCDs to damage them and kite them as 13/28. Also being good enough to warrant special attention means 13/28 doesn't work when facing a good team. Not enough kiting ability. 13/28 will do massive burst on medium armor and under targets which bunch up. Versus heavy armor targets it does 30-50% less. Also to get instant cast t-wave you need to be a turret which doesn't work versus melee. The full balance provides sever force which on paper looks like crap. Also the heals on crits also looks like crap on paper. But in both cases works much better in actual game play. Sever force root allows you to damage and gain a little bit of breathing room. It also allows for pillar humping as you can poke out dot and hide. Which is wonderful versus tracer missle spammers. Sever force also hits instantly which helps with preventing captures. Most importantly though sever force is internal damage which bypasses armor making it's low paper damage much more effective in actual use. For focused insight it reads like crap. Specially with lower end gear. I run with 31% crit and 16k health so i get 160 heal per crit dot. Well with sever force and weaken mind up that will result in 500-550 worth of healing every 20 seconds. Add in mind crush along with the 2 piece set bonus and you will be healing ~1k every 30 seconds. Who wouldn't want a talent that heals you 500 every 20 seconds for free? The other high end healing talent is crap though. Just spend those points further down in the tree. Finally mental scarring adds 30% to the damage of force in balance and all dots is a great ability. Now I've played both and like both. On my server there are a lot of melee and not that many light armor opponents in pvp so I've picked full balance. It's also better for pve as instant t-wave is costly to maintain. Oh by the way I don't think full balance really needs fixing though there are some talents in balance which need improving. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khadroth Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 (edited) I dont even know what to say Balance is amazing for PvP, by far the most utility you get from Seer, that nonsense hybrid build (dishes out loads of damage but provides in no shape or form more utility than the Balance tree)... If "that nonsense hybrid build" never dies, and dishes out loads of damage such that it kills every player it meets like I do, then it doesn't need utility. It simply wins by virtue of the other team being dead. Honestly balance doesn't have more utility, it just has a root on sever force. One I might add that a smart player will always cleanse if they can. Edited January 23, 2012 by Khadroth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bthrawn Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 If "that nonsense hybrid build" never dies, and dishes out loads of damage such that it kills every player it meets like I do, then it doesn't need utility. It simply wins by virtue of the other team being dead. Honestly balance doesn't have more utility, it just has a root on sever force. One I might add that a smart player will always cleanse if they can. Smart players will never cleanse the root. Root lasts 2 seconds cleanse costs a GCD of 1.5 seconds. You will save nothing by cleansing the root. Cleansing the dot to stop the damage sure but cleansing a 2second dot with a 1.5 GCD doesn't make any sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khadroth Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 Smart players will never cleanse the root. Root lasts 2 seconds cleanse costs a GCD of 1.5 seconds. You will save nothing by cleansing the root. Cleansing the dot to stop the damage sure but cleansing a 2second dot with a 1.5 GCD doesn't make any sense. That's what I was talking about, hence using the term cleanse. No I wouldn't waste my CC break on the root. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bthrawn Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 That's what I was talking about, hence using the term cleanse. No I wouldn't waste my CC break on the root. No I meant cleanse as well. Using cleanse which most melee don't have access to anyways uses the GCD not once did I mention the CC break. Cleanse like most abilities use the GCD which is a waste in terms of cleansing the root. The sage ability: Restoration Instant Cooldown: 4 seconds Force: 30 Range: 30m Cleanses a friendly target of up to 2 negative mental or Force effects. Uses the GCD. This is the ability I assumed you were referencing not the CC break. I also wasn't talking about the CC break. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khadroth Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 (edited) No I meant cleanse as well. Using cleanse which most melee don't have access to anyways uses the GCD not once did I mention the CC break. Cleanse like most abilities use the GCD which is a waste in terms of cleansing the root. The sage ability: Restoration Instant Cooldown: 4 seconds Force: 30 Range: 30m Cleanses a friendly target of up to 2 negative mental or Force effects. Uses the GCD. This is the ability I assumed you were referencing not the CC break. I also wasn't talking about the CC break. ...then why the hell wouldn't you cleanse it? Getting rid of the root lets you remain mobile in the short term and utterly destroys the caster's dmg in the long term by getting rid of his DoT. If I cleanse sever against a Full Balance/Madness spec, I win every time. Edited January 23, 2012 by Khadroth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archaegeo Posted January 23, 2012 Author Share Posted January 23, 2012 I have 0 problems with melee, assuming 1 on 1 and we both start even, with the 21/20 build. Just 0. The force wave bounceback with root, stun, force lift, force speed, all the time hitting weaken mind to proc fast tele throw, which lets me do the project/fib/crush combo (or tk wave). Its nasty. In bal spec i have to wear him down over time, and frequently that time isnt available. Plus 1k healing every 30 sec for "free" maybe, but in reality one 1.4 sec cast of benevolence equals that. Really the 1% heal talents are truly awful, as far as bang for buck, imho. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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