DukSaber Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 (edited) We did 8man karrags palace with 2 bh heals today. No wipes. It could be your groups or maybe something you dont understand. Supercharg gas is key (spam healing scan once you activate). One thing i have noticed is good tanks ussually means ez heals. If damage gets too spread out because of squishy tanks, bh heals has a really hard time. Also dps play a big factor,,,,ive noticed alot of dps simply keep attacking before the tank or give the tank zero time to get agro. This also spreads the damage out and makes it tough for bh/ Edited January 25, 2012 by DukSaber Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shammus Posted January 25, 2012 Author Share Posted January 25, 2012 We did 8man karrags palace with 2 bh heals today. No wipes. It could be your groups or maybe something you dont understand. Supercharg gas is key (spam healing scan once you activate). One thing i have noticed is good tanks ussually means ez heals. If damage gets too spread out because of squishy tanks, bh heals has a really hard time. Also dps play a big factor,,,,ive noticed alot of dps simply keep attacking before the tank or give the tank zero time to get agro. This also spreads the damage out and makes it tough for bh/ I've also done 8 mans with 2 bounty hunter healers.. the other healers are stronger this has nothing to do with needing a full mana bar. next time you do karaggas 8 man take 1 healer and see which one gets you further. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uvirith Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 ehm, our guilds Merc heals 8 man Operations normalmode alone without even breaking a sweat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shammus Posted January 25, 2012 Author Share Posted January 25, 2012 (edited) ehm, our guilds Merc heals 8 man Operations normalmode alone without even breaking a sweat. if that's the case, i'd like to see some videos if you ever make one, as I've said from the beginning there could be something that I'm doing wrong, but the guides still don't help in heavy raid damage. We did 8man karrags palace with 2 bh heals today. No wipes. It could be your groups or maybe something you dont understand. Supercharg gas is key (spam healing scan once you activate). One thing i have noticed is good tanks ussually means ez heals. If damage gets too spread out because of squishy tanks, bh heals has a really hard time. Also dps play a big factor,,,,ive noticed alot of dps simply keep attacking before the tank or give the tank zero time to get agro. This also spreads the damage out and makes it tough for bh/ spamming healing scan is a quick way to overheat with a 1.3s cast time. honestly I think alacrity should just assist in venting heat like in the beta @ one point. and it would fix everything I'm referring to. it also doesn't matter what I think we all know bioware isn't going to cater to me, however if GZ posted here I would be curious to hear the metrics on the heals, if he says they are there then this thread would be over. And if bounty hunters receive a buff to heals anytime in the future then you'll know that I was correct.. they go strictly by the numbers when it comes to this sort of thing. Edited January 25, 2012 by Shammus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fgtsean Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 (edited) I can see them receiving a buff in the future. It's actually rather likely because managing heat actually takes effort compared to a constant regen of a sorc/op. It isn't that the heals are less efficient, Bounty Hunters suck, or that Sorc/Ops do a ton more healing. Heat is a very new mechanic that people aren't seeming to grasp how to manage yet. I can see the 'buff' coming making heat easier to manage, and that's it. Atleast that's how I hope it goes to shut people up, rather than buffing us in a healing department. Also, if they have metrics, then why the **** don't we have a combat log yet. All of the things being said are without proof from combat logs or anything like that. Until that is implemented, this thread is closed. Edited February 1, 2012 by Fgtsean Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Praos Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 I will not try to bore you with facts like 9 my guild is progressing through hardmodes 16 , and me being the only BH healer , am the one that was never left out . Will not try to tell you for I-have-lost-the-count time someone pointed you are doing something wrong . I will just give you a small expirement I did last reset with a friend . My guild goes on normal 16 with 3 healers ( op / sorc / bh ) and we never had a problem . So here we are , me and my friend the sorc , and we decide to try swaping characters for 1 reset and see how it goes . We wiped for 1 hour on Eliminator . Simply because my friend was not used to the heat mechanic . After a few tips on it we stormed through it with no problem again . At the end of the night he asked me if we can do it again coz he found this way of healing interesting , while me having a bh healer was rather bored with having another mana user . So if someone that played a mana user for so long in previous mmo , has a mana user in Tor , and after a few tips on heat management not only did not have a problem but found the class way more interesting than his "classic" mana user , then I can only come to the conclusion that you are doing something wrong . And do not start with maths , coz that is what heat management is all about . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Infighter Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 I don't really believe Bodyguard's problems come from heat-management -- that is easy to grasp after playing with it for a bit -- I think it's more about the lack of healing arsenal compared to Sorcs. Sorcs currently do what the other two healing classes do but better while having double the amount of healing spells both of the other classes have. I don't really understand Bioware's train of thought when they created the healing specs. They gave strong single-target heals, hots, AoE heals, bubbles AND combat ress all to one class, then gave one or two of those things to the other two classes. I don't think Sorcs should be nerfed, but I do believe the other two classes should be brought up to their pair so that people shouldn't just stack Sorcs to have the BEST raiding experience. This is what I believe, at least. The healing classes in this game are pretty bad balanced if compared to each others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shammus Posted January 25, 2012 Author Share Posted January 25, 2012 (edited) well I typed out a big long response with even more math.. again resurgence vs.. healing scan that alone should be enough to prove the point, there is not one situation in the game where the bounty hunter is going to shine in a situation that a sorcerer cannot Resurgence + talent that reduces 9 percent to heal cost 91 force + 30 percent from force bending making this ability cost 64 mana Resurgance is exactly the same as healing scan except for it heals for 15 seconds talented and increases armor by 10 percent during that time. A bounty hunters healing scan does this for 9 seconds. Even the 15 force cost purge they get will heal when talented. Technically the kind of fight we should shine on would be foreman crusher.. but nope sorcs still do it better. Edited January 25, 2012 by Shammus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DukSaber Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 if that's the case, i'd like to see some videos if you ever make one, as I've said from the beginning there could be something that I'm doing wrong, but the guides still don't help in heavy raid damage. spamming healing scan is a quick way to overheat with a 1.3s cast time. honestly I think alacrity should just assist in venting heat like in the beta @ one point. and it would fix everything I'm referring to. it also doesn't matter what I think we all know bioware isn't going to cater to me, however if GZ posted here I would be curious to hear the metrics on the heals, if he says they are there then this thread would be over. And if bounty hunters receive a buff to heals anytime in the future then you'll know that I was correct.. they go strictly by the numbers when it comes to this sort of thing. In a operation boss ill generally use supercharge/healing scan several times during high damage. Heat can certainly be a concern if you arent always aware of it. One mechanic i do is i never use rapid or healing scan to top off players. If a player is 85% health or more, I only use rapid shots, kolto missles. This makes a huge difference in overall heat management. If health goes under 85% or so thats when i start spaming rapid,healing emergency scan. I rarely overheat even with all the supercharge/healing scan i do. good luck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demorase Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 (edited) People don't understand heat as a ressource is fundamentally flawed for a healer. A sorcerer has the same regen regardless of its current force left, meaning he can spam heavy heals for a long period of time if need be and then go on less heavy heals after the storm and have 0 penalty. A merc can't do that, you MUST space out your big heals regardless of the situation. See the core difference here, it's our ressource system that dictates our healing as opposed to what the situations requires, and we can't adapt to it because our ressource doesn't allow to, you have to space out your big heals or you'll overheat. You have one pattern of healing as merc and that's it, which is 1 big heal, 1 small heal, 1 big heal, etc... you can't adapt to the situation. A sorc has no limitation of the sort, you can do 20 big heals if you need and then 20 small heals to regen. Edited January 25, 2012 by Demorase Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DukSaber Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 People don't understand heat system is fundamentally flawed for a healer. A sorcerer has the same regen regardless of its current force left, meaning he can spam heavy heals for a long period of time if need be and then go on less heavy heals after the storm and have 0 penalty. A merc can't do that, you MUST space out your big heals regardless of the situation. See the core difference here, it's our ressource system that dictates our healing as opposed to what the situations requires, and we can't adapt to it because our ressource doesn't allow to, you have to space out your big heals or you'll overheat. You have one pattern of healing as merc and that's it, which is 1 big heal, 1 small heal, 1 big heal, etc... you can't adapt to the situation. A sorc has no limitation of the sort, you can do 20 big heals if you need and then 20 small heals to regen. Wrong. So wrong. Are we all playing the same game? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SheepishOne Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 Yeah, that isn't how Sorcs or BH's operate at all. There is no problem with BH healing. There is a problem with protective/anti-wipe utility in raids--such as scale of heals and toolbox abilities. AoE healing is a chore for BH's, but it's easily doable in the one or two encounters it occurs in. The rest of the time AoE damage is only taken by poorly positioned players. Sorcs have a repositional, the rez, the bubble and fire/forget aoe. Those are great at preventing wipes because someone was unattentive. If you can save an attempt on a boss you save a lot of time and aggravation. That's why Sorcs are favored. Without a doubt, a BH could heal an 8 man Normal raid. Equipped bodyguards could main heal every raid out there. We have the healing. The issue is that every other healer does too, and some make more sense for raids. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kungrah Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 I'm healing just fine in hard-modes and normal / hard mode ops. But when it comes to needing to group up and AOE heal then I really fall flat on my face. Take for example the first boss of eternity vault (Really cannot remember his name at all) I've done him a fair few times on N and H, and only twice on nightmare (cause I usually run with a sorc healer) But this week she couldn't make it. We took our other merc healer with us and it just went bad. One of the things I feel needs to be changed for a BH healer is the way Kolto missle operates, healing 3 people is fine, but when you have 3 people on 20% and 3 on 100% and it choses to hit the ones who don't need it, it bloody sucks. So I think it should be changed to prioritise those that need healing, over those that don't. That way we may be more than just tank healers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KujinRen Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 (edited) Healing Scan (to put it on cd), SG (removes heat just caused by HS and buffs healing done, etc), Kolto Missile, HS, HS, HS (party member one, two, and three respectively) if you have time for a fourth one use it on yourself, otherwise just use your 15% health regen cd or your blue shield (always forget the name). You never want to spam Healing Scan as you will overheat quite quicky during a use of Supercharged Gas. Rule of Thumb: Always use Rapid Scan after a Healing Scan (with points spent properly in the healing tree, Healing Scan causes Rapid Scan to build only 9 heat) So during heavy group damage alongside using the Kolto Missles, you pop your Supercharged Gas and then Healing Scan > Rapid Scan > Healing Scan > Rapid Scan. Do not use Rapid Shot when Supercharged Gas is active as you will not build stacks, unless the incoming damage has lessened enough to where you can use it as a filler. I have never had any issues with heavy incoming AOE damage to my group. If you use your skills properly and read all the descriptions, you'll be non-stoppable - assuming group members cooperate and not try to kill themselves with lack of awareness. Edited January 26, 2012 by KujinRen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gallaticus Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 I think the armor should be a lower level but still the health must increase by a lot the others are better than the bounty hunter i mean when i am fighting a boss and its level is higher i need more health buff :csw_fett: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mooby Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 1. Kolto Missile needs to be a smart heal. 2. Rapid Shots most of the time in a raid won't get used as you can't afford the GCD to use it. 3. No combat resurrection. These are the only issues I have, otherwise I find the Merc healing capabilities perfectly fine. Bounter Hunter Heals two people die while the bounty hunter is healing keep in mind its not even about the deaths watch the video around the 2minute mark.. bounty hunter healing and starts having heat issues. ONLY healing 3 people The reason two people died was nothing to do with the Merc healing, it's two DPS being completely derp and not moving out of his AoE slash. Also, that's a horrible example for healing around the 2 minute mark as you pointed out, because that was a poor healing job. Didn't properly stay in range of people. Never used Supercharged Gas and hovered at 30 stacks for ages. Major error. Used Kolto Missile on just himself when he could have used a medpack, total waste. Burned a few Rapid Scans in a row without using TSO which wasn't on cooldown. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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