My Main 2 Issues With PvP

[Cempa]

1) Really do not like the way they built the Deception tree as it is impossible to take any PvP oriented talents without completely and utterly gimping your self dps/burst wise.

 

I have near 600 Expertise and after hundreds of hours of PvP against similar geared players I think Deception burst lacks without Static Charges 2/2 which require a previous investment of 3/3 in Saber Conduit. I really would like to see those talent merged with Crackling Blasts as to allow us enough points to get PvP talents Entropic Field / Static Cling and even Lightning Recovery in Madness.

 

Insulation in Deception -tier 1 2/2- just dose not make sense to me, not only do we have no way of affording it, even if we did it adds little! We need more endurance, more internal defense, stealth detection or even better stealth, and a better way to get improved Force shroud!

 

2) Our burst -if you can call it that- is fully dependent on ever possible buff stacked. Without that our damage and burst is laughable against +600 expertise players. See what a Sorcerer/Juggernaut/Operative/Bounty hunter do at that gear level without buffs -much better than us.

 

Maul or the talent 3/3 needs to be re-worked and made a go to tool...Add a long CD on it but allow me the player to chose when to use it!

 

Last is Low Slash, it needs to not break on damage!

[Kaydul]

So basically "we need more survivability, more damage, access to all of the pvp talents and dps talents at the same time, 2 long duration stuns. and a large coke would be nice too, kthnx BW" that's what I got from this. Not sure why you're complaining about burst I run deception with dark charge and I have no issues with burst or survivability.

 

You have 2 options with this class in terms of DPS for pvp and that's a more than a lot of other classes. 1 go glass cannon and grab all your pve talents, throw surging charge on, and blow kids up before you die. or two, throw on dark charge and be a sturdy dps who can take a beating while killing people before they can drop you.

 

pick one and stop asking for the best of both worlds. we're a complicated class to play, so learn it or roll merc and have fun spamming tracer missile.

Edited January 23, 2012 by Kaydul

[WoodyDave]

 

You have 2 options with this class in terms of DPS for pvp and that's a more than a lot of other classes. 1 go glass cannon and grab all your pve talents, throw surging charge on, and blow kids up before you die. or two, throw on dark charge and be a sturdy dps who can take a beating while killing people before they can drop you.

 

pick one and stop asking for the best of both worlds. we're a complicated class to play, so learn it or roll merc and have fun spamming tracer missile.

 

Darkness spec does almost as much damage as deception, and has 2x the survivability. Basicly, its stupid to spec deception over darkness, as the damage trade off is almost not noticeable.

 

FYI.

[Paganini]

Darkness spec does almost as much damage as deception, and has 2x the survivability. Basicly, its stupid to spec deception over darkness, as the damage trade off is almost not noticeable.

 

FYI.

 

It's very noticeable actually.

[WoodyDave]

It's very noticeable actually.

 

I've used both for multiple weeks

 

 

 

it really isnt

[sankalp]

Darkness spec does almost as much damage as deception, and has 2x the survivability. Basicly, its stupid to spec deception over darkness, as the damage trade off is almost not noticeable.

 

FYI.

 

BULL!!!!

 

I have no idea how a tank build can do more DPS than a DPS build. Maybe its a regular tank playing DPS but there is no way darkness and deception are equal in DPS. Yes deception might die very very easily, but in pure DPS terms, over a decent time interval, I dont think a lot of classes would come close.

[WoodyDave]

BULL!!!!

 

I have no idea how a tank build can do more DPS than a DPS build. Maybe its a regular tank playing DPS but there is no way darkness and deception are equal in DPS. Yes deception might die very very easily, but in pure DPS terms, over a decent time interval, I dont think a lot of classes would come close.

 

I never said they were equal in dps

 

What I did say is they are close. 3k maul crits with deception, 2.8k maul crits with darkness.

 

My damage output on scoreboards also doubles when I use darkness. Add in the absorbs and self healing. Why? Because I can 1 vs 3 dps every now and then and manage to kill 1 before I die, something I cant do as a deception spec.

Edited January 23, 2012 by WoodyDave

[FRISKI]

Darkness spec does almost as much damage as deception, and has 2x the survivability. Basicly, its stupid to spec deception over darkness, as the damage trade off is almost not noticeable.

 

FYI.

 

It's noticeable but not nearly enough to give up something like force pull for.

 

 

I agree with OP, I really wish I could be deception and still be useful in pvp.

[sankalp]

Ohh yeah I agree, but you cannot judge the 2 specs on just 1 maul damage. There is a lot more to it. I would say best thing to do it call a tank in a empty pvp map. get both builds to unload on the tank about 10 times each and you will see the full range deception has.

 

when it does not proc Deception will be way better. When it does proc on most attacks, It will blow away darkness. I believe with the tank not hitting you and killing you and stuff, you should be able to take him down on deception much earlier than the darkness.

 

Ofc, you can argue that in actual PvP you wont survive that long. Well Deception is not a Rambo built. Its a group built. Trust your group healer and Shield tank to protect you.

[WoodyDave]

Ohh yeah I agree, but you cannot judge the 2 specs on just 1 maul damage. There is a lot more to it. I would say best thing to do it call a tank in a empty pvp map. get both builds to unload on the tank about 10 times each and you will see the full range deception has.

 

when it does not proc Deception will be way better. When it does proc on most attacks, It will blow away darkness. I believe with the tank not hitting you and killing you and stuff, you should be able to take him down on deception much earlier than the darkness.

 

Ofc, you can argue that in actual PvP you wont survive that long. Well Deception is not a Rambo built. Its a group built. Trust your group healer and Shield tank to protect you.

 

 

If you're talking about the maul debuff proc. Thats a tier 1 talent, which any spec can grab. I use that in my Darkness spec with the leftover points.

 

I'd say the damage difference is maybe about 10%. I ran with a group with deception spec. I switched to Darkness. I killed just as fast, and was unable to die unless overwhelmed.

 

Again, i'm not saying Deception spec is less dps/burst than darkness. I'm saying the dps to survivability for speccing it isn't worth it at the moment, as the dps gain is low per loss of survivability. As in, I can burst a target in say 6 hits instead of 5, and still run off with 90% hp from the self healing and shields.

 

Also note, Darkness has plenty of talents that increase both damage output while increasing defense at the same time. Energize is an example of such a synergy. Deception does not....again which is what this topic is about.

Edited January 23, 2012 by WoodyDave

[sankalp]

I think deception does it a little bit. 30% armor with surging charge, 30% aoe reduction, 2% damage reduction. Dont think everyone in deception specs for these.

[Againist]

So will I notice a big change if if spec PvE tank for my guild but PvP with it?

[WoodyDave]

I think deception does it a little bit. 30% armor with surging charge, 30% aoe reduction, 2% damage reduction. Dont think everyone in deception specs for these.

 

. Except AoE damage is a non factor. Aoe damage is incredibly low as it is.

 

 

. 2% damage reduction is a tier 1 madness talent.

 

To the talents above. No one specs them because they are useless.

 

 

I will repeat again. Darkness talents add both offense and defense, such as energize. Deception talents do not. That is what this topic is about. The defensive talents of the defensive talent line have offensive components attached to them, thus allowing you to keep up in dps.

Edited January 23, 2012 by WoodyDave

[mausty]

Just make it so when i force cloak it gets rid of dots, uhhh that drives me nuts!

[Mcfondles]

I never said they were equal in dps

 

What I did say is they are close. 3k maul crits with deception, 2.8k maul crits with darkness.

 

My damage output on scoreboards also doubles when I use darkness. Add in the absorbs and self healing. Why? Because I can 1 vs 3 dps every now and then and manage to kill 1 before I die, something I cant do as a deception spec.

 

Maul isn't the deception assassins main tool.. If you rely on maul too much, then yeah of course your damage will be gimped (or close to that of a tank's)

[Astarica]

Dark Charge's 5% penalty only applies to melee attacks, not Force attacks.

 

Since Harnessed Darkness + Wither makes Force Lightning reliably usable in PvP and Force Lightning is by far the best damage per force move for an Assassin, it basically translates to higher DPS overall since unless your goal is to die before you run out of force, DPF dominates your DPS output.

[kidbs]

I've actually become fond of playing a Madness spec. I never thought that I would like it but I switched over this week after primarily playing as a deception assassin. Having Death Field crit for 3.4k on three targets is pretty satisfying, and Thrash hits like a truck (harder than Voltaic Slash). I've found that the burst that deception assassins can do just isn't enough against well-geared, high expertise targets. The DoTs from Madness along with the pressure of Thrash crits do a really great job of eating people down.

 

My overall damage in WZs has gone up quite dramatically since switching over.

[Tiduslol]

Deception has been working for me from rank 1 all the way to Rank 73.

 

We're squishy but we can put out tons of damage. Good tradeoff from Darkness with almost no burst whatsoever but with much much better survivability.

 

I've ran both and Deception is by far the best if you want to be a true assassin. The class is fine, we don't need any changes.

[Sovereighn]

I've actually become fond of playing a Madness spec. I never thought that I would like it but I switched over this week after primarily playing as a deception assassin. Having Death Field crit for 3.4k on three targets is pretty satisfying, and Thrash hits like a truck (harder than Voltaic Slash). I've found that the burst that deception assassins can do just isn't enough against well-geared, high expertise targets. The DoTs from Madness along with the pressure of Thrash crits do a really great job of eating people down.

 

My overall damage in WZs has gone up quite dramatically since switching over.

 

Interesting... as i am running now with deception build since few days and the situation has changed dramatically with the patch just playin in the 50er bracket and thus most of the people are well geared and i cant get the burst off.

 

can you please post the build and maybe a skill rotation (i know its situational but yea there is always some standard with sinergy)

also do you run in dark charge stance?

also with off hand shield?

Edited January 23, 2012 by Sovereighn

[Acidbaron]

Just want to chip in that if darkness speced there are beter options then the slow and postional based ability as maul.

[CHammer]

I'm a Darkness / Deception Hybrid - Rank 50, full champion (have been lucky enough to be full champ since rank 40ish).

 

I was Deception until 43 when I specced Darkness / Deception Hybrid... and over the entire course of a Warzone, I do anywhere between 15 - 20% extra damage because im actually alive and doing damage alot more often then I was compared to Deception.

 

No doubt that initial burst is better with Deception + Surging, but damage over the period of an entire warzone - Darkness wins.

[kidbs]

Interesting... as i am running now with deception build since few days and the situation has changed dramatically with the patch just playin in the 50er bracket and thus most of the people are well geared and i cant get the burst off.

 

can you please post the build and maybe a skill rotation (i know its situational but yea there is always some standard with sinergy)

also do you run in dark charge stance?

also with off hand shield?

 

I'm running a full dps build with champions dps gear and using Lighting Charge. My spec is:

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#200McMZzMZcMfRrMkrfz.1

 

My "rotation" so to speak is:

Pop Recklessness -->Death Field --> Shock (*) --> Creeping Terror --> Discharge --> Thrash --> Crushing Darkness on Proc --> Assassinate if below 30%.

 

* Only use Shock second if you've popped Recklessness, otherwise use Creeping Terror and Discharge first, then shock.

 

You'll use Death Field whenever available and reapply your DoTs as they are about to expire. For the most part you are Thrashing the hell out of them and Thrash hits pretty darn hard with this spec (make sure you shock often enough to keep your melee damage buff up). Don't even bother using Maul as Thrash will hit harder on crit and doesn't have the positional requirement.

 

One great thing about this build is that you have 2 instant CCs in Electrocute and Whirlwind. It's also quite satisfying to throw down a Reckless-charged Death Field on a group of people. Creeping Terror is good for stopping runners and Death Field is also good to finish off runners since it has a 30m range.

[WoodyDave]

Deception has been working for me from rank 1 all the way to Rank 73.

 

We're squishy but we can put out tons of damage. Good tradeoff from Darkness with almost no burst whatsoever but with much much better survivability.

 

.

 

 

 

This is 100% incorrect and killed you credibility.

[Sovereighn]

I'm running a full dps build with champions dps gear and using Lighting Charge. My spec is:

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#200McMZzMZcMfRrMkrfz.1

 

My "rotation" so to speak is:

Pop Recklessness -->Death Field --> Shock (*) --> Creeping Terror --> Discharge --> Thrash --> Crushing Darkness on Proc --> Assassinate if below 30%.

 

* Only use Shock second if you've popped Recklessness, otherwise use Creeping Terror and Discharge first, then shock.

 

You'll use Death Field whenever available and reapply your DoTs as they are about to expire. For the most part you are Thrashing the hell out of them and Thrash hits pretty darn hard with this spec (make sure you shock often enough to keep your melee damage buff up). Don't even bother using Maul as Thrash will hit harder on crit and doesn't have the positional requirement.

 

One great thing about this build is that you have 2 instant CCs in Electrocute and Whirlwind. It's also quite satisfying to throw down a Reckless-charged Death Field on a group of people. Creeping Terror is good for stopping runners and Death Field is also good to finish off runners since it has a 30m range.

 

 

thx alot. will try this tommorow.

[plompkin]

This is 100% incorrect and killed you credibility.

 

Sorry, but no one on the forums has as much credibility as the experienced players most of us speak to in game. In fact, I'd say that posts like this are why the Assassin sub-forum is one of the worst.

 

I wish I took a screenshot of the battlemaster assassins I spoke to calling the darkness and hybrid builds "gimmicky and a waste of time". One of them said that the forum goblins were looking for a solution to a problem that doesn't exist. They are 100% correct and killed your credibility.