To all who claim we 7k+ Crit (Jarring Strike Nerf OK IMHO)

[pelijr]

9-13k in the first 6 seconds, and a total potential of 21-23k over a perfectly executed rotation in 12 seconds

 

9k-10k Possible WITH successful crits in 6 seconds, but barely.

 

13k in 6 seconds - Not possible without gear difference or buff stacking

 

21-23k over a perfectly executed rotation in 12 seconds - What planet are you living on LOL. Our sustained DPS is nothing, and unless we blow our 2 min cooldown to restealth, our only -real- DPS is backstab, where I had to stand -behind- you, and again, it does -maybe 2.5-3.5k on a 9 second cooldown, meaning it's only going to come up again ONCE during a 12 second rotation.

 

You're right, that 9-10k does come quick, and hits like a train since you're on the ground (IMO the only thing that needs nerfed), but 21-23k in 12 seconds doesn't happen, not when Shiv hits for like 1.5k (ON A high crit) and Lacerate for 2.5k (ON A high crit)

 

See the problem -REALLY- is that you're doing all this number crunchering based on us Critting, trust me, it doesn't happen -that- often, and there's plenty of times I open up on a Sorc/Assassin (Light armor) with Hidden Strike, Followed by Corrosive Dart, Backstab (Obviously Acid blading before HS and BS), then Shiv, then Lacerate, and they only have -maybe- 2.5-3.5k missing. Trust me, when that happens, you better PRAY your Cloaking screen is up, or you are just -****ed- out in the open.

 

Again, the problem isn't with the Classes DPS, the problem is with the opener. So Leave Acid Blade out of it one. Two, if you're going to take away the Burst, give us a -slight- boost to shiv maybe (not much, maybe 10-15%) and give us -some- form of a gap closer.

 

You're feelings would be 100% different if you played an Op. You'd like be like me, willing to admit that the 3s stun in the opener is over the top, but you'd clearly agree that this "Nerf" is -quite- heavy-handed and a bit....brash...to say the least.

[Kelticfury]

So, a video showing you do 5k dmg is proof you don't need a nerf? I dun git it.

 

Did you even read the original post or did you just jump to the video because it had pretty pictures?

 

No wonder **** gets nerfed, with geniuses like this overrunning the forums.

 

How about we nerf idiocy!

[pelijr]

That's pretty much what is happening. The actual damage from these changes isn't game breaking either. It's being grossly over exaggerated by players who are used to having a distinct advantage in every PvP scenario they go into. We are talking a maximum of 4k off of an ideal 12 second scenario.

 

You cannot expect people to not oppose the classes current state by saying its not game breaking as is, when the changes, although steep, aren't game breaking either.

 

 

I don't even see -how- you can claim these aren't class-breaking to the Conc. Op. 4k off is a signifigant problem for a class that only puts out about 9-10k (at the top of the level with Crits and good situation) in 6 seconds. After that initial burst.... we are -starved- for DPS. And remember, this is ideal situations we're talking about.

 

It's not that I can't handle a nerf, or I can't handle a "L2P" issue like balancing and such. But it's when you give me only 1 Viable PVP spec if I wanna do any real DPS, and then, instead of balancing it, and coming up with something that will work for everyone, you take away the -only- thing I'm capable of PVP. You say "You'll just have to adjust" but unless BW adds -some- sort of buff to Lethality/Medic, or sustained DPS, there is NO way to adjust. No other class is a -one- trick pony. If you take away the one-trick, all you are left with is a pony..... I'd rather not be a pony... I'd much rather be excellent at -one- thing, and decent at others, like most of the classes, than be the class that seems OP to everyone in PVP because of our KNOCKDOWN.

 

To be honest, I could handle the entire changes to Op (All 3) if only they would give me -some- mobility like a gap-closer, and possibly a knockback as well. Hell, kill my melee abilities a bit more while you're at it, and giving me a bit better usefulness for ranged, you know....The reason I picked up IA in the first place, the mix of Melee and Ranged?

 

Point is Cowflab, if you take away the -only- thing we can do in PVP right now, what are we supposed to do lol. I have 0 meaningful AOE besides maybe Orbital Strike but come on, if you stand in the reticle you deserve to take a 4.5k Pounding (that's with the extra sec from Tech "set bonus") not to mention the serious delay on how long it takes for the first shot to start coming in. I'm getting off topic, but yah, you can't design a class spec around -one- thing and one thing only, then nerf that thing to hell in a handbasket and expect that class to be viable for DPS anymore. It's just not going to happen.

[Agroovesak]

They can't. I'm sure this is where you'll insert your sorc or merc analogy, but, not every class can.

 

It'd be entertaining if somebody with as little experience as yourself would like to point out a class that cannot.

 

Powertechs/mercs/sorcs/ops/snipers/marauders/juggernauts/assassins can all do 16k+ in 12seconds with everything popped.

[darthtrunkmonkey]

want to know whats sounds better then this thread? a real baby crying, because at least its real

[Cowflab]

It'd be entertaining if somebody with as little experience as yourself would like to point out a class that cannot.

 

Powertechs/mercs/sorcs/ops/snipers/marauders/juggernauts/assassins can all do 16k+ in 12seconds with everything popped.

 

Another trying to assert his superiority complex by thinking they know how experienced or good someone is in a video game through judging generalized forum posts. You do know what that does to the credibility of anything you say in this discussion from here on out, right?

[Cowflab]

want to know whats sounds better then this thread? a real baby crying, because at least its real

 

I completely agree.

[Motro]

Another trying to assert his superiority complex by thinking they know how experienced or good someone is in a video game through judging generalized forum posts. You do know what that does to the credibility of anything you say in this discussion from here on out, right?

 

In other words, you can't name another class that isn't capable of putting out 16k+ in 12 seconds. Nice deflection attempt, but your empty rhetoric is getting old.

[Kieran]

I'll just leave this Mercenary video here.

 

 

Obviously us Operatives are the ones that are overpowered though because we can do the same damage as a Merc except we require to be in stealth, behind a target, popping adrenals and relics, and praying for a lucky crit.

 

Before anyone says "but that was before 1.1 when they could fight undergeared lower level people!", guess what...that's the same reason Operatives are getting nerfed. There was absolutely no time to allow people to see after the consumable nerf that Operatives rarely hit 5k (which by the way is obviously intended, seeing as there is a 5k single hit medal) anymore unless on an extremely undergeared level 50.

Edited January 23, 2012 by Kieran

[Jansports]

I'm possible to use logic on MMO forums. It just doesn't work. Hitting naked targets for 5k (theres a medal for that!) is pretty funny actually. What I don't like MOST about this change is how fast it was announced after the 50 bracket and buff stacking went live. There was almost zero time left for these changes to settle to see the state burst was in. No good balance changes come from overreaction to this degree. Ops already have 2 poisons why not Add a bleed or two? solves two issues, the burst is lowered and the sustain is increased. Also might give ops a chance at bleed kiting which was easily the best part of being a rogue. Not that they NEED to make ops rogue clones but Rogues had similar balance issues at times and blizzard handled it pretty well for quite sometime.

 

Mobility is an issue but I am almost certain it would have to be a talent as a healers with pulls/charges would be a bit silly in huttball. And While I'm here Operatives are the worst of the three healers. This makes me cry since I rolled one primarily to heal.

[Cowflab]

I'll just leave this Mercenary video here.

 

 

Obviously us Operatives are the ones that are overpowered though because we can do the same damage as a Merc except we require to be in stealth, behind a target, popping adrenals and relics, and praying for a lucky crit.

 

Before anyone says "but that was before 1.1 when they could fight undergeared lower level people!", guess what...that's the same reason Operatives are getting nerfed. There was absolutely no time to allow people to see after the consumable nerf that Operatives rarely hit 5k (which by the way is obviously intended, seeing as there is a 5k single hit medal) anymore unless on an extremely undergeared level 50.

 

Blaming otherscfor your classes nerfed broken mechanics? How original. This never happens when classes get nerfed.

 

You are aware that the dev team has a running recorded data matrix(combat log) right? They didn't just make a dart board and land on ops. Get a clue.

Edited January 23, 2012 by Cowflab

[Kieran]

Clearly the 2 days that were used when it was 50 only brackets was enough data before announcing 1.1.1 changes. I must be wrong as Cowflab obviously has vast knowledge of the Operative workings instead of pure speculation.

[LilTikiBoy]

Clearly the 2 days that were used when it was 50 only brackets was enough data before announcing 1.1.1 changes. I must be wrong as Cowflab obviously has vast knowledge of the Operative workings instead of pure speculation.

 

no, hes just a hybrid assassin who likes to troll.

[Cowflab]

no, hes just a hybrid assassin who likes to troll.

 

I actually spend most of my time in a 2/31/8 spec these days and I'm not trolling. I'm just tired of the whining and ops players thinking this is a random change based on forum QQ. It's not. There is recorded data. It was analyzed and the changes were announced. It just reminds me of a bunch of kids throwing temper tantrums because they're mom told them no in the candy aisle at Walmart.

[Xenthum]

There is recorded data. It was analyzed and the changes were announced.

 

Where was this data in the 100,000+ player Beta?

[pelijr]

Where was this data in the 100,000+ player Beta?

 

2 working days worth of possible data gathering has passed since 1.1 dropped and fixed the buff-stacking and the 50's brackets..... REALLY...2 business days... How much data do you -really- think they collected when I can play -easily- 10+ games and see -maybe- one other Concealment Op besides myself.

 

Anyone who claims this is based off actual MEANINGFUL data is a complete dumb *** who clearly, enjoys the knee jerk reactions of Devs, so long as it doesn't affect them that is.

There is -no- way any form of REAL statistical data has been recorded to prove this much of a nerf is needed.

 

Nerf the opening stun? Perhaps....but leave damage where it is or you're breaking the class....period.

 

Just wait till 1.1.1 comes out everyone, then when the forum is full of "This is what we've been reduced to" and you see my operative whacking the enemy for negligible white damage, and weak crits, you'll come around and realize this was a knee-jerk nerf, that only further UNBALANCES the game.

[Cowflab]

Where was this data in the 100,000+ player Beta?

 

It was the same in beta. Ask any objective beta ops tester if that opening sequence damage was over the top.

 

 

 

They will tell you it was.

 

 

Also, your overreaction to this nerf is just as bad as the knee jerk reaction you're claiming is happening. They won't release a patch if its game breaking like you expect it to be. The ops class is part of their product as well.

 

Once again, Chicken Little comes to mind.

[Cowflab]

2 working days worth of possible data gathering has passed since 1.1 dropped and fixed the buff-stacking and the 50's brackets..... REALLY...2 business days... How much data do you -really- think they collected when I can play -easily- 10+ games and see -maybe- one other Concealment Op besides myself.

 

Anyone who claims this is based off actual MEANINGFUL data is a complete dumb *** who clearly, enjoys the knee jerk reactions of Devs, so long as it doesn't affect them that is.

There is -no- way any form of REAL statistical data has been recorded to prove this much of a nerf is needed.

 

Nerf the opening stun? Perhaps....but leave damage where it is or you're breaking the class....period.

 

Just wait till 1.1.1 comes out everyone, then when the forum is full of "This is what we've been reduced to" and you see my operative whacking the enemy for negligible white damage, and weak crits, you'll come around and realize this was a knee-jerk nerf, that only further UNBALANCES the game.

 

 

So you're saying they should've waited another 2 months like they already have? I thought people always wanted swift action from the dev team in regards to game balance? Oh! That's right, unless its happening to your class. If its your class, yeah, go ahead and let it play out for a bit. Ops need their free BM gear.

[Hidalgo]

The high damage crits are only a problem in pug pvp, when your team is bad. tanks have a role in pvp, that's their crazy damage mitigation.

[Motro]

I'm just tired of the whining and ops players thinking this is a random change based on forum QQ. It's not. There is recorded data. It was analyzed and the changes were announced.

 

Sorry, this is more of your rhetoric. The beta tests provided over a year of data coming from a large population of high level characters interacting with other high level characters. Bioware has stated that a majority of players are still in their mid-twenties and only a small fraction of customers are at 50. It is safe to assume that a smaller fraction of the players at 50 have obtained the top PvP gear. Any data they use to make class-balancing decisions at this point is inherently flawed.

 

Are they going to make class balancing decisions off an abundance of data for low-level characters? Are they going to make class balancing decisions off of a very small amount of data coming from a very small amount of level 50 characters in top PvP gear? Both populations make poor samples for a proper statistical analysis. The beta test is still the best data they have for PvP balancing decisions and, presumably, the classes were balanced at launch according to this data (unless you want to suggest that Bioware didn't bother attempting to balance the game before they launched it).

 

Now, why are they making these changes with small amounts of statistically insignificant data? You are a fool if you don't think it has anything to do with the whining coming from the forums. The nerfs are only happening to things people are complaining about and coincide with spikes in whine posts. Furthermore, Assuming an equal distribution in level of forum-using customers, most of the whining is coming from players who are not level 50 and do not have top PvP gear (although they are able to claim anything they want).

 

Admittedly, some things MAY NEED balancing and would most likely correlate to an increase in forum postings on the topic. That does not take away from the fact, however, that at this point most if not all cries of imbalance are based off of low-level experiences and the devs have a lack of reliable data to use when making balancing decisions.

 

What is perturbing a good chunk of the playerbase is that Bioware won't let things sit long enough for people to establish their characters and professions in addition to making the target of the nerf useless, or considerably less desirable than alternatives.

 

 

 

 

- Slicing nerfed less than two weeks into launch. People just started leveling and had no idea of what things cost at higher levels, but waves of crying on the forums persisted. You can now make credits at a faster rate by killing mobs or doing space.

 

 

- Operatives nerfed within first month of launch and after only two days of observing class balance after new update. Most of the videos seen in support of the nerf are of high level players with gear and buffs killing lowbies. Videos against the nerf, which are less numerous, show the balance between players of equal level and gear. Nerf coincides with a great outcry against the profession despite the still low average level of all the players. PvE effects completely disregarded.

 

 

- Biochem nerfed within first month of launch. Many people were complaining about the reusable medpack and stims. Cheap purchasable medpacks will now heal for more. Here is the reason given for the nerf:

 

 

 

"

We’ve seen significant chatter both in and out of game

about how players not picking up the BioChem professions would be ‘stupid’ and ‘gimping themselves’. This indicates that a small number of competitive players have been denying access to high end content based on whether a player has the BioChem Crew Skill."

 

 

 

Newsflash - those "competitive players" (a.k.a. ***-holes) will be ***-holes regardless. They will also insist players have a certain spec, but I suppose those will get nerfed too. Why not remove the biochem restriction and multiple-use mechanic, add a very large number of charges, then allow players to purchase them, thus creating a market?

 

I also take a GREAT deal of discomfort in the fact that Bioware is quoting what are obviously forum trolls when talking about what influenced their decision. Example: "lulz r u stupid or something? any1 not taking biochem is gimping themselves"

 

 

- Cybertech nerfed within first month of launch. People were complaining about the grenades giving players too much burst in PvP. Again, nerfed in the name of PvP despite most players not even achieving max level or gear.

 

 

Further evidence that they base their decisions on what they read on the forums: http://www.swtor.com/blog/design-notes-game-update-1.1

 

 

 

"Our Game Updates will also include bug fixes, balance changes, performance improvements and exploit-proofing

based on your feedback

.

We review reports from the community every day

and compare them to gameplay metrics, QA bugs and our own experiences in the live game—where we’re playing right alongside you."

 

 

They clearly state that they hunt for complaints on a daily basis. The result is flawed balance based on flawed data because of population demographics, but appeasement of the whiners for the time being. Quit pretending that these decisions are made without regards to what is smeared all over the forums. You aren't fooling anyone but yourself.

Edited January 23, 2012 by Motro

[zuile]

Does this mean that mercs and commandos are going to be nerfed next month? Or will it be sorcs and sages?

[Motro]

Blaming otherscfor your classes nerfed broken mechanics? How original. This never happens when classes get nerfed.

 

He isn't blaming anyone for the nerf, he is comparing damage capabilities of two classes. The damage potential of one is deemed overpowered while the similar damage potential of the other is deemed balanced.

 

 

 

You are aware that the dev team has a running recorded data matrix(combat log) right? They didn't just make a dart board and land on ops. Get a clue.

 

We have already covered how asinine it is to suggest that they "determined" operative needed a nerf independent from the forum whining. It is equally as absurd to suggest any numbers they are working with are reliable after less than a month of launch and two days after a major patch affecting Operative.

 

 

 

It was the same in beta. Ask any objective beta ops tester if that opening sequence damage was over the top.

 

Lol, yes and they are only deciding to act on that information one month after launching the game.

 

 

 

Also, your overreaction to this nerf is just as bad as the knee jerk reaction you're claiming is happening. They won't release a patch if its game breaking like you expect it to be. The ops class is part of their product as well.

 

Once again, Chicken Little comes to mind.

 

Why wouldn't they release a game-breaking patch if, as you suggested, they knowingly ignored the data from the beta test that indicated that Operative was unbalancing PvP and decided to launch the game anyways?

 

 

 

So you're saying they should've waited another 2 months like they already have? I thought people always wanted swift action from the dev team in regards to game balance? Oh! That's right, unless its happening to your class. If its your class, yeah, go ahead and let it play out for a bit. Ops need their free BM gear.

 

Two months? The game has only been out for one month (Dec 20th - Jan 23). Bioware has altered PvP and we want them to collect reliable data prior to making further alterations. There is no way they can objectively know what effects 1.1 has had on Operative PvP. I would like them to make changes based on the CURRENT state of the game and not the OLD version of the game. What they are doing now makes as much sense as nerfing something based on alpha data.

 

 

 

Does this mean that mercs and commandos are going to be nerfed next month? Or will it be sorcs and sages?

 

Exactly. Just let the damn game settle. People are afraid to progress because they don't know what is going to get nerfed into the ground next.

[Cowflab]

He isn't blaming anyone for the nerf, he is comparing damage capabilities of two classes. The damage potential of one is deemed overpowered while the similar damage potential of the other is deemed balanced.

 

 

 

 

 

We have already covered how asinine it is to suggest that they "determined" operative needed a nerf independent from the forum whining. It is equally as absurd to suggest any numbers they are working with are reliable after less than a month of launch and two days after a major patch affecting Operative.

 

 

 

 

 

Lol, yes and they are only deciding to act on that information one month after launching the game.

 

 

 

 

 

Why wouldn't they release a game-breaking patch if, as you suggested, they knowingly ignored the data from the beta test that indicated that Operative was unbalancing PvP and decided to launch the game anyways?

 

 

 

 

 

Two months? The game has only been out for one month (Dec 20th - Jan 23). Bioware has altered PvP and we want them to collect reliable data prior to making further alterations. There is no way they can objectively know what effects 1.1 has had on Operative PvP. I would like them to make changes based on the CURRENT state of the game and not the OLD version of the game. What they are doing now makes as much sense as nerfing something based on alpha data.

 

 

 

 

 

Exactly. Just let the damn game settle. People are afraid to progress because they don't know what is going to get nerfed into the ground next.

 

The changes to the current state of CC Ops was made in November... They knew then and decided to ride it out but when you couple that with the fact that there are a ton of people still leveling and gearing ops burst, ability lag(yes I know it is not exclusive to ops but you benefit from it the most with your ridiculously over the top opening sequence), and champ/BM gear it makes PvP almost unplayable for anyone who didn't get a jump at early release. This is all moot at this point. The nerf is happening. Good players will adapt and thrive. Bad players will argue endlessly and pointlessly on the forums until they're blue in the face and frustrated.

 

Burst isn't all you have. It just far less efficient than your 4-5 button kills. I don't blame you for abusing it, I would too if my class had something similar, but that doesn't mean it isn't broken. Waiting for the game to "settle" is a bad business move for a young MMO. You can't deny that. By doing so you're basically shutting the game off to any new comer or slow leveler/gearer.

 

I guess the concept of not having cross server PvP putting the meta game under a microscope eludes you. Once you get a healthy group of geared, incredibly overpowered ops players they literally ruin PvP the majority of the server. When people see just how potent they are, you start to see wzs with 4 sorcs, a merc, a tank, and 2 ops. Min/maxing had always been bad for mmos. Star wars is no different. I have already seen a huge jump in ops population on juyo since everyone finally started figuring out they were op(contrary to the "least played class" schtick)

Edited January 23, 2012 by Cowflab

[Gaulitz]

The changes to the current state of CC Ops was made in November... They knew then and decided to ride it out but when you couple that with the fact that there are a ton of people still leveling and gearing ops burst, ability lag(yes I know it is not exclusive to ops but you benefit from it the most with your ridiculously over the top opening sequence), and champ/BM gear it makes PvP almost unplayable for anyone who didn't get a jump at early release. This is all moot at this point. The nerf is happening. Good players will adapt and thrive. Bad players will argue endlessly and pointlessly on the forums until they're blue in the face and frustrated.

 

Burst isn't all you have. It just far less efficient than your 4-5 button kills. I don't blame you for abusing it, I would too if my class had something similar, but that doesn't mean it isn't broken. Waiting for the game to "settle" is a bad business move for a young MMO. You can't deny that. By doing so you're basically shutting the game off to any new comer or slow leveler/gearer.

 

I've seen you in every single thread about OPs nerf, and it's blatantly obvious that you haven't played an OP so i really got no clue what you're even trying to accomplish.

Your arguments make no sense at all, why would the ability lag benefit OPs the most? Half the time you use your hidden strike you can't even do anything before they stand up and the damn server tells me where they actually are.

[Cowflab]

Does this mean that mercs and commandos are going to be nerfed next month? Or will it be sorcs and sages?

 

Possibly, and it would be welcomed too.