Suggested boost for Jedi Knight Class and Sith Warrior

[GarfieldJL]

Okay I have been floating this idea off and on, I think this deserves its' own thread on the subject.

 

Problem I've seen:

As we all know we have the skill lag issue combined with our own animations interrupting our skills (specifically deflection and parry). While I like the look of the animations, it is rather frustrating that our own chars can interrupt our skill attacks. Now parry to me isn't as big of an issue because it falls into activating a skill that does a fair bit of damage, but that skill doesn't work when the opponent is a ranged one or a series of ranged ones.

 

My proposed solution:

Whenever a blaster bolt is deflected (which triggers the deflection animation) that blaster bolt is deflected back at an enemy within a set distance that is actively engaged in fighting the Jedi Knight (or Sith Warrior) or at people that are involved in fighting (attacking or being attacked by) someone in the same party as the Jedi Knight.

 

If someone is simply sitting there healing people and not actively engaging in combat (attacking or being attacked) at all they aren't in danger of being hit (so people in PvP don't cry foul).

 

Flame throwers, rockets, grenades, etc. are not affected by this, only blaster/shotgun fire.

 

I think this would go a long way to lessen the extremely annoying skill cancelations and make it so we're better able to stand up against ranged classes.

 

Thoughts?

[MimicUnleashed]

I've thought for a while it would be a good idea to do this as a cooldown (though not passive) for Knights. It'd make more sense for Guardians to get it, but if we get another new toy I'd rather Sentinels get push (it's too much fun). Give it a cooldown of like a minute and say every blaster shot or force attack for 3 seconds is sent back to the attacker. Obviously the time on that would need an adjustment, and it may need a "doesn't work on Boss mobs" sort of thing, but it would seriously be useful for PvE and PvP.

[GarfieldJL]

I've thought for a while it would be a good idea to do this as a cooldown (though not passive) for Knights. It'd make more sense for Guardians to get it, but if we get another new toy I'd rather Sentinels get push (it's too much fun). Give it a cooldown of like a minute and say every blaster shot or force attack for 3 seconds is sent back to the attacker. Obviously the time on that would need an adjustment, and it may need a "doesn't work on Boss mobs" sort of thing, but it would seriously be useful for PvE and PvP.

 

Reason why I said this is a passive skill and not an active skill that we have to trigger is because our deflection animation will cancel our attempts to trigger an active skill (even including our basic attack, sundering strike, slash). I think this holds true for both Sentinels and Guardians.

 

In all honesty I want this tied to deflection (and we already have a skill where we deflect anything briefly that is only good for a few seconds (this skill actually will sometimes not trigger due to the deflection animation when you try to activate it).

 

This idea makes our skills being interrupted/cancelled by our own defense actually being a good thing.

 

I also think this ability would also be effective on bosses.

 

Unless you're deflecting everything thrown at you, at which point you must have a level advantage of at least 10 levels, I hardly think this is overpowering.

 

 

Further I limited this exclusively to things like blasters and shotguns so it isn't an overpowering ability and would be plausible.

 

How do you deflect flames from a flame thrower for instance...

Edited January 22, 2012 by GarfieldJL

[MagikxMan]

The only realistic solution is to seperate the animations.

 

You should be able to deflect while in another attack animation without cancelling said attack. One needs to take piority over the other. I honestly don't care whether it's the attack or the bpe animation that takes precedence.

 

What I DO know is the way it is now is not acceptable. And giving me another skill, be it active or passive, that reflects a blaster, shotgun, force attack, etc back at the attacker will not make it better. Especially as a tank, it is far too important that the skill I am trying to use actually activate.

 

As for deflecting fire from a flame thrower, etc. We would do it the same way yoda redirects the emporer's lighting....using the force.

[GarfieldJL]

The only realistic solution is to seperate the animations.

 

You should be able to deflect while in another attack animation without cancelling said attack. One needs to take piority over the other. I honestly don't care whether it's the attack or the bpe animation that takes precedence.

 

What I DO know is the way it is now is not acceptable. And giving me another skill, be it active or passive, that reflects a blaster, shotgun, force attack, etc back at the attacker will not make it better. Especially as a tank, it is far too important that the skill I am trying to use actually activate.

 

As for deflecting fire from a flame thrower, etc. We would do it the same way yoda redirects the emporer's lighting....using the force.

 

I would argue Yoda was more of a Jedi Sage that so happened to be able to kick butt the old fashioned way like a Jedi Knight.

 

Thing you need to bear in mind is that what I'm suggesting would still mean that the Jedi Knight is attacking even though it wasn't the skill you intended, would probably still be generating some threat, but the damage being dished out would be from the opponent's attack value (maybe 80% the opponent's attack value).

 

What this means:

 

If the opponent blaster shot value is 1000 dmg when all is said and done, the deflection of that blaster bolt is 800 damage to a random enemy that is currently engaged in fighting you or a party member.

 

That means it could hit an enemy tank, or an enemy dps, or if the healer is in the fighting too (not simply healing people), they are also potentially going to get hit. I personally would find it hysterical if let's say a bounty hunter's blasters takes out their own party's healer on accident.

 

Additionally, I am suggesting this passive skill would not cost focus.

 

 

 

Also:

 

If we're just going to do an animation override, we may as well just get rid of the animation altogether, because we're going to be overriding all the time.

[Faolon]

No.

It would give you too great of a benefit against blaster using classes.

 

 

Rebuke, right now, does basically what you're asking.

[GarfieldJL]

No.

It would give you too great of a benefit against blaster using classes.

 

 

Rebuke, right now, does basically what you're asking.

 

Most of the blaster using classes use something known as AIM.

 

AIM does more than boost your range damage, it actually reduces the target's ability to dodge or deflect the ranged attack.

 

Furthermore, there is a reason why I deliberately said that this would not affect grenades, flame-throwers, etc.

 

I think about every class that uses blasters has more attacks than simply blaster fire at their disposal, and I know a lot of them use AIM or cunning (I'm not sure if cunning boosts your accuracy, I think it probably would, or it adds to special attacks somehow).

 

To quote HK-47: "If I see one more idiot attack a Jedi with a blaster pistol, then I will kill them myself."

 

Anyways if a low level blaster using class attacks a lvl 50 Jedi Guardian, using their blasters, in all honesty they quite frankly should get pummeled to death by their own attacks.

Edited January 25, 2012 by GarfieldJL

[benificus]

Most of the blaster using classes use something known as AIM.

 

AIM does more than boost your range damage, it actually reduces the target's ability to dodge or deflect the ranged attack.

 

Furthermore, there is a reason why I deliberately said that this would not affect grenades, flame-throwers, etc.

 

I think about every class that uses blasters has more attacks than simply blaster fire at their disposal, and I know a lot of them use AIM or cunning (I'm not sure if cunning boosts your accuracy, I think it probably would, or it adds to special attacks somehow).

 

To quote HK-47: "If I see one more idiot attack a Jedi with a blaster pistol, then I will kill them myself."

 

Anyways if a low level blaster using class attacks a lvl 50 Jedi Guardian, using their blasters, in all honesty they quite frankly should get pummeled to death by their own attacks.

 

Not really fair to say blaster classes have ways around it, or that they can just only use a small portion of their attacks. I mean, sure, they could, but people without blasters don't even have to deal with it at all. If it was a short duration defensive cooldown type thing, sure, they could deal with it by using other attacks and maybe that would be more or less fair. But if it's an all the time always up passive, it's simply saying classes that are mostly blaster based are just screwed. They can never use more than limited tools to deal with Jedi.

 

It would be cool,yes, and maybe even true to the source material, because blaster fire -is- often ineffective against Jedi. But that can't matter in a game where balance is a factor. You have to give versions of abilities that don't make Jedi too good or everyone plays Jedi.

 

Me, I like the active ability idea. Rebuke already exists, but it's only for Sentinels. Something similar for guardians would be nice, and would help with AoE and ranged threat a lot.

[damolawler]

I like this idea. I think we should also be able to deflect force lightning as well.

 

I suggest linking this ability to saber Ward for example. While saber ward is sctive, for those six seconds force-lighting and blaster bolts are deflected back at the caster who suffers the damage.

 

I love this idea actually, and I don't think this will make us OP, as saber ward is effective for just six seconds, and is on a long cooldown.

 

I love the idea of sith sorcerors getting a taste of their own medicine.

Edited January 25, 2012 by damolawler

[MimicUnleashed]

I like this idea. I think we should also be able to deflect force lightning as well.

 

I suggest linking this ability to saber Ward for example. While saber ward is sctive, for those six seconds force-lighting and blaster bolts are deflected back at the caster who suffers the damage.

 

I love this idea actually, and I don't think this will make us OP, as saber ward is effective for just six seconds, and is on a long cooldown.

 

I love the idea of sith sorcerors getting a taste of their own medicine.

 

Like I'd said, it need to be on a cooldown and not passive. Unless they want to add a stance that has a chance when deflecting to do it. Which would be a pretty nifty novelty, but it'd really only be for PvP. Considering that damage output by Guardians is low in PvP without lots and lots of gear it wouldn't be too much to tie into a cooldown. But as I said before, Sentinels have this ability (sort of) already. I just would like to see the Sentinels get Push back. I hate having the cool toys all to myself.

[GarfieldJL]

Not really fair to say blaster classes have ways around it, or that they can just only use a small portion of their attacks. I mean, sure, they could, but people without blasters don't even have to deal with it at all. If it was a short duration defensive cooldown type thing, sure, they could deal with it by using other attacks and maybe that would be more or less fair. But if it's an all the time always up passive, it's simply saying classes that are mostly blaster based are just screwed. They can never use more than limited tools to deal with Jedi.

 

It would be cool,yes, and maybe even true to the source material, because blaster fire -is- often ineffective against Jedi. But that can't matter in a game where balance is a factor. You have to give versions of abilities that don't make Jedi too good or everyone plays Jedi.

 

Me, I like the active ability idea. Rebuke already exists, but it's only for Sentinels. Something similar for guardians would be nice, and would help with AoE and ranged threat a lot.

 

The idea that it would hose blaster classes if this was a passive ability is not exactly true.

 

If I read the tips correctly, they seem to indicate that accuracy can be pushed over 100%, based on that information, it stands to reason that blaster wielding classes actually have a stat that could counter this.

 

Accuracy ratings that we get in game are shown as if the opponent is the same level. If the blaster wielder is a higher level, then they have an accuracy bonus would quite possibly put them over 100%.

 

Blaster deflection and dodge are dependent on the stat known as defense, which does nothing to negate damage dealt to you if it gets by the defense.

 

 

If I remember correctly, we never saw force lightning be deflected with a lightsaber back at someone, we've only seen this in Force Unleashed.

 

 

Further Analysis:

 

If you look at the base deflection stat, I think it is 5 to 10% somewhere in that range. So you normally wouldn't be deflecting everything thrown at you in any event unless you have a serious level advantage.

 

The stat that improves a Jedi Knight's and Sith Warrior's deflection ability is Defense.

 

The stat that improves a range class's (i.e. trooper, imperial agent, bounty hunter, smuggler) ability to lessen a target's ability to deflect attacks is accuracy (I think aim factors into this).

 

From what I understand, defense does not lessen damage that is dealt when something gets through.

 

So from what I've seen there is a stat that ups deflection, and a stat that reduces an opponent's ability to deflect what you throw at them.

 

I also think that there may be a 10% boost in accuracy with special blaster attacks like there is for skill based attacks with Jedi Knight.

 

So what we'd have is an accuracy vs. deflection situation.

 

Conclusion:

 

If the Jedi has a poor defense rating and/or a much lower level than their blaster-wielding opponent and/or the blaster wielder has ridiculous accuracy, they (the Jedi) end up getting drilled full of holes.

 

If the Jedi has an excellent defense rating and/or a much higher level and/or the blaster-wielder hasn't put much stock into their accuracy, they end up getting clobbered with their own weapons' fire.

 

If they are both comparable to each other, I'm honestly not sure who would win because deflection doesn't go to 100% except during the opening seconds of saberward. This also wouldn't affect power techs cause they use those flame throwing remotes, grenade launcher spammers, etc.

 

I honestly think it would come down to defense stats and its' boost to deflection vs. accuracy stats (which may be affected by aim) which reduce a target's ability to deflect or dodge attacks.

 

So I honestly don't think this would be overpowered because there are stats to counter this already in place.

Edited January 25, 2012 by GarfieldJL

[Yukondoit]

Making this a part of Saber Ward sounds like a phenomenal idea. Quite frankly, this change alone would go a long way toward bringing the Jedi Knight into balance with other classes in PvP.

[GarfieldJL]

Making this a part of Saber Ward sounds like a phenomenal idea. Quite frankly, this change alone would go a long way toward bringing the Jedi Knight into balance with other classes in PvP.

 

If this were a passive skill, it would effectively be triggered by saber ward anyways. The reason why I suggested this to be more than simply tied to saber ward and shouldn't be in the tank tree exclusively is because of Star Wars Lore.

 

If you read the Star Wars: Jedi vs. Sith The Essential Guide to the Force. It indicates (if I recall correctly), that while Sorseu is the defensive form (which is why it also isn't a flashy form and is supposedly extremely good at deflecting blaster fire), Shien is the form which the deflecting blaster fire at opponents deliberately is a hallmark of.

 

I think this is also backed up in KotOR II, by Kreia when she comments on the form.

 

So this actually from a lore standpoint would fit exclusively the DPS Vigilence tree, while other saber styles could do this, Shien is the one that turning defensive moves into offensive ones is its trademark (fun fact: if I also remember correctly Djem So (Darth Vader's prefered saber style and to some extent Luke Skywalker's) is also considered an offshoot of Shien).

 

Sentinels have Nimen (which is the balance stance also known as diplomat's stance if I remember correctly), Ataru is basically Yoda's style or Qui Gon Jinn's and is an aggressive style that does better in one on one fights.

 

Don't get me wrong supposedly every style could do this blaster deflection routine, but the using enemy blaster bolts as a weapon is something that was a core feature of Shien.

[Rhinzual]

Most of the blaster using classes use something known as AIM.

 

AIM does more than boost your range damage, it actually reduces the target's ability to dodge or deflect the ranged attack.

 

Furthermore, there is a reason why I deliberately said that this would not affect grenades, flame-throwers, etc.

 

I think about every class that uses blasters has more attacks than simply blaster fire at their disposal, and I know a lot of them use AIM or cunning (I'm not sure if cunning boosts your accuracy, I think it probably would, or it adds to special attacks somehow).

 

To quote HK-47: "If I see one more idiot attack a Jedi with a blaster pistol, then I will kill them myself."

 

Anyways if a low level blaster using class attacks a lvl 50 Jedi Guardian, using their blasters, in all honesty they quite frankly should get pummeled to death by their own attacks.

 

Wasn't that in KOTOR II where you could level a sentinel based on dexterity to dual-wield tricked out blasters with the precise shot feats specifically made to counter lightsaber deflection, not to mention mods on those blasters to further reduce deflection? Oh, and that game had disruptor (sp?) blasters, rifles, etc that completely bypassed both damage reduction and blaster reflection?

[GarfieldJL]

Wasn't that in KOTOR II where you could level a sentinel based on dexterity to dual-wield tricked out blasters with the precise shot feats specifically made to counter lightsaber deflection, not to mention mods on those blasters to further reduce deflection? Oh, and that game had disruptor (sp?) blasters, rifles, etc that completely bypassed both damage reduction and blaster reflection?

 

I was talking about lore...

 

I mentioned two sources to back up what I was saying.

 

 

I suggested this would be a Jedi Knight Skill not simply a guardian one, and be a skill that is not in the skill tree.

 

As far as generating threat like someone else proposed, I imagine it probably would generate threat.

 

The reason why I didn't suggest this work against force attacks is partially cause I don't know how effective consulars and their counterparts are against blaster fire.