Lessen the nerf on Scoundrels

[Hopeslast]

I play a Scoundrel and agree that we may need some adjusting but the nerfs brought up in patch 1.11 are class breaking nerfs. They will pigeon hole Scoundrels into sawbones and dirty fighting, but dirty fighting isn't really that spectacular.

 

Personally, I can live with a 20% armor penetration nerf, and even the 1.5 second nerf to our primary CC as long as it has reduced effect on the resolve bar. But the 20% nerf to our opener is taking too much damage away from our burst with the compounding armor penetration nerf. Possibly buff the duration/damage of the dot applied by flechette round to help with the sustained damage sink we have.

 

Scoundrels (Scrapper) are built to burst so don't destroy that and make it useless. We need burst effectiveness or we will be at the bottom of the barrel for a long time. The ONLY reason you see the ridiculous numbers from Scoundrels that you see is from expertise and stim/adrenal stacking, so look for nerfs in other places before you resort to nerfing a class, PLEASE.

 

So please if you feel the nerfs are far too much, voice your opinion here or with your own thread.

 

-Thank You

Anathema, The Crucible Pits

Edited January 21, 2012 by Hopeslast

[trentman]

you are 100% right, scoundrels shouldnt be nerfed, and tbh im really thinking of unsubbing now that they have nerfed us. biochem si why they see such high numbers, and for them to nerf us before sorcs is absolute ******** and it makes me sick, *** bioware

[Gomdol]

I play a Scoundrel and agree that we may need some adjusting but the nerfs brought up in patch 1.11 are class breaking nerfs. They will pigeon hole Scoundrels into sawbones and dirty fighting, but dirty fighting isn't really that spectacular.

 

Personally, I can live with a 20% armor penetration nerf, and even the 1.5 second nerf to our primary CC as long as it has reduced effect on the resolve bar. But the 20% nerf to our opener is taking too much damage away from our burst with the compounding armor penetration nerf. Possibly buff the duration/damage of the dot applied by flechette round to help with the sustained damage sink we have.

 

Scoundrels (Scrapper) are built to burst so don't destroy that and make it useless. We need burst effectiveness or we will be at the bottom of the barrel for a long time. The ONLY reason you see the ridiculous numbers from Scoundrels that you see is from expertise and stim/adrenal stacking, so look for nerfs in other places before you resort to nerfing a class, PLEASE.

 

So please if you feel the nerfs are far too much, voice your opinion here or with your own thread.

 

-Thank You

Anathema, The Crucible Pits

 

Agreed, I know it is still on the testserver, and it may have changes once the actual patch comes, but if this is what is going to happen with 1.1 patch, I might consider unsub as well.

 

Scoundrel/OP been there since close beta. They should have done this before launch if they really think this is right way. All I see is they are doing this cause they hear too many QQs, and dont wanna lose their money.

 

I understand every MMOs have same steps nerf/buff while people crying on something, but to fix the out balance is not nerfing certain class that has been there with no problem since the game started to develope.

 

It is very huge disappoint if this is the way Bioware handle class balancing.

 

[torhent]

you are 100% right, scoundrels shouldnt be nerfed, and tbh im really thinking of unsubbing now that they have nerfed us. biochem si why they see such high numbers, and for them to nerf us before sorcs is absolute ******** and it makes me sick, *** bioware

 

Scoundrels need the nerf, but it needs to be adjusted a bit. Frankly, remove K.O. from the game and you fixed the problem. You can still do your front load, and now the mouth breathers complaining about being instant killed has all the time to apply their own CC to the operative. Or BW can leave in the 3 sec stun but put in the Shoot First Damage Nerf but they would have to increase the Scoundrels out of stealth damage.

 

To me the problem is you have a ton of people who never played a MMO let alone competively played PVP going up against stealthers. And lets be frank, most people who play stealthers are playing them almost exclusively to be PVP. They tend to be the min/max type of type A player, so they aren't exactly easy to kill and there is a whole herd of casual PVP'ers to kill now in warzones.

 

Personally, I give BW three months tops to reevaluate the scoundrel nerf because they screwed it up.

[Raice]

Scoundrels need the nerf, but it needs to be adjusted a bit. Frankly, remove K.O. from the game and you fixed the problem. You can still do your front load, and now the mouth breathers complaining about being instant killed has all the time to apply their own CC to the operative. Or BW can leave in the 3 sec stun but put in the Shoot First Damage Nerf but they would have to increase the Scoundrels out of stealth damage.

 

To me the problem is you have a ton of people who never played a MMO let alone competively played PVP going up against stealthers. And lets be frank, most people who play stealthers are playing them almost exclusively to be PVP. They tend to be the min/max type of type A player, so they aren't exactly easy to kill and there is a whole herd of casual PVP'ers to kill now in warzones.

 

Personally, I give BW three months tops to reevaluate the scoundrel nerf because they screwed it up.

 

Wrong.

 

_______

 

 

Anyway - I won't be unsubbing. I just won't PvP (which is unfortunate since I rolled on a PvP server.) But, there are other things I can do in the game on this character for now. Once I'm done with them? There are still other classes I am interested in playing for Story purposes. I mean... never mind all this nerf stuff - I still really enjoy the game. I'm just going to do my part to make sure everyone knows when nerfs are wrongly applied.

 

I can always roll DF or Sawbones for PvE since they're good for that anyway.

[torhent]

Wrong.

 

_______

 

 

Anyway - I won't be unsubbing. I just won't PvP (which is unfortunate since I rolled on a PvP server.) But, there are other things I can do in the game on this character for now. Once I'm done with them? There are still other classes I am interested in playing for Story purposes. I mean... never mind all this nerf stuff - I still really enjoy the game. I'm just going to do my part to make sure everyone knows when nerfs are wrongly applied.

 

I can always roll DF or Sawbones for PvE since they're good for that anyway.

 

I had close to 100% chance of killing any player 1 on 1 w/ all of my cool downs up for an equally skilled/geared player in 6 seconds w/o using biochem. So yes, that is a problem. However BW wants to address the issue, ultimately all classes equally geared/equally played should have a 50% chance to win excluding certain situations in which each class should excel.

 

For scoundrel attacking from stealth they should have a greater chance to kill and when fighting out of stealth they should have a greater chance to lose the match. But right now, the skew is so high for our stealth attack its bad.

 

I played a survivability spec that didn't use fletchette round or K.O. and picked up med pack because a number of 50's singled me out in warzones and it was an easy way to deal with them, and without those abilities I still did very well and topped the charts about 80% of the time for damage.

 

However, full glass canon build, pre-nerf 6 second kills were common and I was able to kill pre-50's in 3 seconds some times, if I double tapped them (including 50's) w/ 2 shoot firsts it was a 3 to 4 second kill. Guess what, 3 to 4 second kills where a player can't react is a PROBLEM.

Edited January 22, 2012 by torhent

[MatchpointServe]

Well ****. As if PvP doesn't suck in this game to begin with, now my only joy of playing on my Scoundrel is going to be taken from me. I may unsub as well if this patch goes live.

[Kandorr]

And so it begins...

 

The PvP elitists crying for nerfs and it damages the PvE side of things. EVERY developer attempts to balance the game between PvE and PvP - it can't be done.

 

I'd like to see PvE and PvP kept completely seperate. Once you enter a PvP warzone or Ilum, you automatically switch into your PvP gear and you get a different set of skills on your skill bar. Everyone has the same stats and you only increase when you buy gear. Xp and levels are different for PvE and PvP.

 

This way, if someone cries about nerfing a class in PvE or PvP, the devs can change what ever the problem is without affecting each other.

[Menehunes]

everytime I read someone saying "im going to unsub cus my class is getting nerfed" i lol:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

[Raice]

I had close to 100% chance of killing any player 1 on 1 w/ all of my cool downs up for an equally skilled/geared player in 6 seconds w/o using biochem. So yes, that is a problem. However BW wants to address the issue, ultimately all classes equally geared/equally played should have a 50% chance to win excluding certain situations in which each class should excel.

 

For scoundrel attacking from stealth they should have a greater chance to kill and when fighting out of stealth they should have a greater chance to lose the match. But right now, the skew is so high for our stealth attack its bad.

 

I played a survivability spec that didn't use fletchette round or K.O. and picked up med pack because a number of 50's singled me out in warzones and it was an easy way to deal with them, and without those abilities I still did very well and topped the charts about 80% of the time for damage.

 

However, full glass canon build, pre-nerf 6 second kills were common and I was able to kill pre-50's in 3 seconds some times, if I double tapped them (including 50's) w/ 2 shoot firsts it was a 3 to 4 second kill. Guess what, 3 to 4 second kills where a player can't react is a PROBLEM.

 

I know this is long, but please read this:

 

If you removed KO, then you'd have to adjust the timers on our other stuns - Dirty Kick and Flashbang are on pretty long timers. Sure, we can spec them in DF... but the reason why we couldn't do it in Scrapper was because:

 

KO was convenient, because it was a stun that wasn't on a CD... plus it didn't cost anything to use since it was technically a Passive.

 

The nature of "Burst Damage" means it's supposed to be fast. If it's built into our class that our burst comes from 3-4 different situational attacks, and it's not also built into the class to enable us to perform that burst - then you have effectively cut off our ability to burst all the same. You might as well have not even bothered to make it a Burst Class. These attacks are only useful when they are used at one time - that's why they are all Instant cast times.

 

People have to realize - it's not ONE attack. It's a series of attacks that are situational. The Stealth and the Stun (KO) create the situation for us to finish the burst that Shoot First starts. We have very little time to take advantage of the situation. Once the conditions are gone - we are no longer able to apply the burst. This is primarily why the reduction of KO to 1.5s is so devastating, since it still maxes the Resolve - we cannot follow through with another stun. And even if we could - it wouldn't address the problem.

 

 

Here's how it work(s/ed):

 

Please keep in mind that I am assuming that we are both on the same page about equal gear, level, and all that jazz (whatever it may be) when I speak about this hypothetical scenario:

 

1. Stealth Created the condition for Shoot First (the big opener to our burst) which procced an automatic KO and granted the first stack to Upper Hand.

 

2. KO created the condition for Back Blast which can only be done behind the target (the second attack to our burst) and also made it possible for us to finish our burst (the point to the entire Class.)

 

3. Blaster Whip has nothing to do with anything except to grant us the second and final stack of Upper Hand, which will allow us to potentially use Sucker Punch to it's maximum efficiency.

 

4. Flechette Round applied certain qualities to Shoot First, which when used, applied a DoT to the target which created the condition for Sucker Punch (which consumes the first stack of Upper Hand) to proc Flying Fists (which isn't important because of the extra damage.)

 

5. Flying Fists has a chance to grant an additional stack of Upper Hand. Supposing it works, we now have 2 stacks of Upper Hand.

 

6. Which means we can use Sucker Punch twice more giving (the fourth and fifth attacks to the burst) whereby we no longer have Upper Hand active, and the burst rotation is complete.

 

6b. Using Upper Hand completely on Sucker Punch is generally unwise, however. It is more or less mandatory that you use one of your stacks to initiate Pugnacity. I didn't get into it though because it isn't technically "part of the burst."

 

7. All of this takes place in a matter of seconds, and it all hinges on KO. Without KO, we have to stop the burst, and immediately react to the target.

 

8. Shoot First was BY FAR the most powerful and arguably the most important attack in the entire burst rotation. Why? Because in the event that the chain was broken, we at least did some damage. Once the chain is broken... it is rough (and I mean rough) times for the Scrapper. Without the power of Shoot First putting the dent into the target, there would be absolutely no way for us to finish the character in any way given the constraints of the Talent Tree structures. We don't have the SP after we have obtained Flechette Round. Sucker Punch doesn't cut it, because it is Melee, and we're being Kited, and it won't ever be as powerful as it was during the burst for at least 10s - which is plenty of time for us to die. Essentially - all of our tricks and attacks combined - without the Burst Rotation, nothing will allow us to kill the target. We WILL die, or we WILL have to run away. This is an observable fact.

 

That is essentially all there is to the devastation to Scrapper. It seems like a lot... but it isn't that hard. It's hard to set up - but once it starts, it's a well oiled machine. There are a lot of other factors and scenarios for this to play out differently, but generally speaking, this is the gist of it.

 

The only way to counter this and stop it from happening is to use an Escape the moment KO kicked in.

 

Removing KO or reducing it to 1.5s without adjusting the Resolve (which is a standard GCD, which is the maximum amount of time anyone would need in order to use their Escape anyway) is effectively the same as giving them a free, passive Escape, and making it so there is no way we can use ANY stun on them at all. Basically, we're locked out of all other stuns - which are the ONLY defenses we really have next to some relatively functionless Dodge mechanics and a 3s shield which is... I won't get into those.

 

 

Putting it all together:

 

So, if you ditch KO, then you have to adjust the long CDs on our other stuns within the Scrapper tree. Otherwise, we can't effectively do our burst anyway - which makes us a broken tree - which is what this nerf did since it did nothing to increase something else (like reduce other stun CD's, increase sustained DPS, or increase our defense) to warrant the fact that we can no longer effectively burst.

 

Now, what is effective bursting? I don't really feel like getting into it (too tired), but suffice it to say that if you remove KO and you do not reduce the CD on our other stuns, then you have limited us to only doing what we are supposed to do, approximately once every 1.5-2 minutes (maybe longer.) In a WZ.... that's a long time. That is not effective bursting. The idea behind "damage theory" is that the actual DPS works out the same whether it is sustained or burst - burst just front loads it where sustained spreads it out, in the end it works out the same. Since Scrapper has nothing else to offer but burst damage (zero defense, zero sustained DPS, zero survivability)... this breaks the tree and renders it useless to the entire team.

 

 

TLDR:

 

Long story short - removing KO doesn't solve anything. It's just as bad as reducing it to 1.5s and not increasing our sustained DPS, as well as not removing the Resolve constraints.

 

Please understand - I acknowledge that there is a problem. All of this was to illustrate that this nerf OR your suggestion to remove KO will do absolutely nothing to resolve the real problems.

 

ADDITION:

 

I will say this one good thing about your idea:

 

It saves players who don't know any better the trouble of being tricked into wasting 2 Skill Points on a skill that now effectively grants their Target a free Escape and subsequently locks you out of using any of your secondary stuns. That's the only good that will come out of your idea. So... if this nerf is written in stone - they might as well remove it altogether anyway. It makes no sense to use 2 Skill Points that benefit the enemy.

Edited January 22, 2012 by Raice

[Zealscube]

nerf scrapper, buff sawbones

 

i rolled my smuggler to heal, i heal in pve, but i NEVER heal in pvp cause we're BAD at it....if i want to/need to pvp, i spec scrapper and 90% of the time i open up on someone from stealth, they die

 

i lvl'd as a healer, and the first time i tried scrapper was in a wz, and i was getting SOOOO many kills....that shouldn't happen, i have no experience with the spec, my gear is "healing" gear (not much difference, but i dont have any accuracy if that matters in pvp?), but im still dominating people...thats wrong

 

and for sawbones, 3 heals and we're oom, unless we pop our long cd for energy regen, then we get 5, and if you heal conservatively and try to keep your energy up, you dont have enough healing output and people die....and kolto cloud is A JOKE. the soa fight in EV is enough to prove that, when the group is falling down, i hardly even bother to heal, i could work MY HARDEST and use every heal i have and pop all my cooldowns top everyone off...or the sage can press 1 button and do it faster, more efficiently, and prettier

 

nerf scrapper, buff sawbones

[torhent]

nerf scrapper, buff sawbones

 

i rolled my smuggler to heal, i heal in pve, but i NEVER heal in pvp cause we're BAD at it....if i want to/need to pvp, i spec scrapper and 90% of the time i open up on someone from stealth, they die

 

i lvl'd as a healer, and the first time i tried scrapper was in a wz, and i was getting SOOOO many kills....that shouldn't happen, i have no experience with the spec, my gear is "healing" gear (not much difference, but i dont have any accuracy if that matters in pvp?), but im still dominating people...thats wrong

 

and for sawbones, 3 heals and we're oom, unless we pop our long cd for energy regen, then we get 5, and if you heal conservatively and try to keep your energy up, you dont have enough healing output and people die....and kolto cloud is A JOKE. the soa fight in EV is enough to prove that, when the group is falling down, i hardly even bother to heal, i could work MY HARDEST and use every heal i have and pop all my cooldowns top everyone off...or the sage can press 1 button and do it faster, more efficiently, and prettier

 

nerf scrapper, buff sawbones

 

Um no, spread your med packs out amongst the group and keep them up. When you see a guy getting pounded up the healing and switch to emergency med packs. Sawbones do very well for warzones, given not as well as Counselors (their energy pool is ridiculous, and frankly when they are out of juice, they can suicide, and come back fully juiced), but still very good. Just use the angles and ledges to keep ranged from being able to target you, use stealth to get out when you have to. Hell, spend 3 sec, or probably 2.25 secs if you have the alacrity for it, and cast the AE fire every now and then and you can move the ranged out from your guys to give you a sec to catch up on heals.

[Raice]

nerf scrapper, buff sawbones

 

i rolled my smuggler to heal, i heal in pve, but i NEVER heal in pvp cause we're BAD at it....if i want to/need to pvp, i spec scrapper and 90% of the time i open up on someone from stealth, they die

 

i lvl'd as a healer, and the first time i tried scrapper was in a wz, and i was getting SOOOO many kills....that shouldn't happen, i have no experience with the spec, my gear is "healing" gear (not much difference, but i dont have any accuracy if that matters in pvp?), but im still dominating people...thats wrong

 

and for sawbones, 3 heals and we're oom, unless we pop our long cd for energy regen, then we get 5, and if you heal conservatively and try to keep your energy up, you dont have enough healing output and people die....and kolto cloud is A JOKE. the soa fight in EV is enough to prove that, when the group is falling down, i hardly even bother to heal, i could work MY HARDEST and use every heal i have and pop all my cooldowns top everyone off...or the sage can press 1 button and do it faster, more efficiently, and prettier

 

nerf scrapper, buff sawbones

 

Other classes dominate too.

 

I play with my bro a lot who is a Vanguard. I don't know what his spec is, but he usually tops the charts in Kills, Damage, Protection, and Objective. I mean to say, he is usually in 1-3 place overall. He's not even geared, and he's not using Biochem, and we're rolling against Geared 50's who probably use Biochem. Out of 16 players, I'd say that's more than impressive. I'm usually not far behind, but sometimes it's the other way around. I'm topping the charts, and he's not far behind.

 

We get a lot of kills, yes. But don't be fooled into thinking we're the only ones.