Agents: Least played & not chart toppers, Nerfed first?

[GengisKahn]

I would agree with that if unbreakable will popped you immediately back to your feet even 75% of the time. But as it stands right now, with ability lag and all, it doesn't. So no, you don't get a free kill every few minutes with little to no effort because you picked "the burst class."

 

I also must say I looooooooove this "its all we have" mentality. I'm willing to bet that the GOOD CC Ops will still do just fine without their crutch. Those that can't, won't. It's the nature of MMOs. Your crying and whining is pointless.

 

 

You are citing another problem, UNRELATED to the Imperial Agent class, which is ability lag, a problem the devs havve already dais they have a fix being tested and they will deploy soon.

 

Again, not a problem of the spec, so there is no need to nerf the spec for that.

You think operatives are good ccers?

Edited January 22, 2012 by GengisKahn

[Cowflab]

I have played several classes, and i clearly know more about the subject than you. Concleament operatives is a kill fast or die class, if you didnt noticed thst yet then you have serious problems.

 

Since the kill fast part is now gone, its just a go and die class.

 

They hve no utility (no knockbacks, no pulls, etc), no gap closers and they are extremely kitable, they do no aoe damage, no sustained damage and they are extremely squishies.

 

So please, inform yourself before talking about others please.

 

Go tell you mom someone called you out in a forum.

 

Read the post above yours. L2P without crutches kthnxbai.

[Cowflab]

You are citing another problem, UNRELATED to the Imperial Agent class, which is ability lag, a problem the devs havve already dais they have a fix being tested and they will deploy soon.

 

Again, not a problem of the spec, so there is no need to nerf the spec for that.

You think operatives are good ccers?

 

You have far more at your disposal than your opening sequence. Learn to use it and stop relying on broken mechanics to get you free kills and valor.

 

Cc Ops isn't any worse of a ccer than any other class in the game. You're not entitled to blow up whoever and whatever you choose just because you're a stealth class. I play a stealth class too and I get by just fine without your crutch.

Edited January 22, 2012 by Cowflab

[GengisKahn]

5 points in medicine does not a heal-spec make. Regardless, even without those points, if you're not finding ways to get out of line of sight to heal when needed, you're bad. Plain and simple. 2.5 seconds for 2.4-4k health is a damned good trade. I average about 250k damage 65k healing per WZ. I've had games where I've done 350k damage and 120k healing simultaneously, and yes, this is post 50s-bracket/biochem-nerf.

 

 

 

Doubtful.

 

 

 

These are the numbers I've regularly gotten on lvl 50 opponents with > 15k health (indicating a mixture of champion/centurion gear)

 

6k hidden strike crit, 3k acid blade damage over 6 seconds, 1.6k shiv non-crit, 3k laceration crit, 1.7k laceration non crit. At this point, 6 seconds have elapsed and I've done 15.1k damage. In just 6 seconds, I've dealt damage roughly equal to their maximum health. Given my 50% crit rate with Hidden strike/backstab, and 32% crit rate with other abilities, getting these kind of crits is not at all unusual. Now we get to the second part of my combo, 4k backstab crit, 3k acid blade, 1.4k shiv non-crit, 1.5k laceration non-crit, 3.2k laceration crit. That's another 13.1k damage over the next 6 seconds for a total of 28.2k damage over a 12 second period. These are the numbers I can get with the expertise buff or biochem adrenal + trinket, which means I can do this twice in a 2 minute period. That means twice every 2 minutes, I can pick out someone on the enemy team and they will be dead in about 5-8 seconds if they don't blow just about every cooldown they have and/or receive dedicated healing. Keep in mind, these are not unusual numbers for me. If I get lucky and everything crits, those numbers go up considerably.

 

After the nerf, that number will be 13.1k damage over the first 6 seconds, and 25.7k over 12. This is rough math based on medium armor. The nerf will be slightly less noticeable on light armor and slightly more on heavy, which is as it should be.

 

All that, and we have evasion (dotwipe + 3-4 second immunity to lightsaber/blaster attacks), a self-shield, a 2 second root/12 second slow, a 3 second stun, an 8 second AoE mez, and a 2 minute cooldown vanish that doubles as a sprint.

 

 

 

Operatives are not exactly helpless babes when caught out of stealth. One of my favorite things to do when jumped by another DPS/tank class is to stun and heal to make them blow their CC break, then use my flashbang, heal up to full, drop an explosive probe, and corrosive dart on them, and break the CC with an acid-blade/backstab. If both explosive probe and backstab crit, that's potentially 8k damage right there, and they then have both acid blade and corrosive dart ticking, and you still have your root/slow/evasion/shield/vanish if you need to some breathing room when they start blowing their cooldowns.

 

even without this combo, we have plenty of tools to slip away from bad fights, heal twice, and come back at an advantage. Just because you're primarily a DPS class doesn't mean your healing or utility magically go away. Use ALL the tools!

 

 

So are you playing against target dummies?

 

6 seconds and you received 0 knockbacks or ccs youself, yes operatives are op aginast afk targets.

 

After those 6 seconds you use backstab, so your opponent let you get to his back, even when you have no gap closer or knocback, again, you are playing against an afk player.

 

Your out of stealth combo needs your target to get right to your side (the initial stun you called needs melee range) and then your enemy to do big mistakes. And even after that 8k damage you do, you would have been kited to death by any mediocre player, let alone a good one.

 

I think you have never played againt a good player.

 

Also, vanish has 3 minutes, and all that arsenal you claim we have, do nothing to players further than 10m. L2Kite

Edited January 22, 2012 by GengisKahn

[GengisKahn]

You have far more at your disposal than your opening sequence. Learn to use it and stop relying on broken mechanics to get you free kills and valor.

 

Cc Ops isn't any worse of a ccer than any other class in the game. You're not entitled to blow up whoever and whatever you choose just because you're a stealth class. I play a stealth class too and I get by just fine without your crutch.

 

No you dont, cc ops sucks, and you have to kill fast because YOU ARE THE EASIER CLASS TO KITE.

 

Learn 2 Kite and the come back. You have 2 skills that you can use above 10 m range, none of them do good damage and you have 0 gap closers.

Edited January 22, 2012 by GengisKahn

[mandaboo]

They dont make these nerfs based upon a dice roll.

 

They have data or they would not have made the nerf.

 

This is a business for goodness sake, not a game of Tunnels and Trolls in your mom's basement.

[GengisKahn]

Read the post above yours. L2P without crutches kthnxbai.

 

The "post avobe me" plays against afk players.

[GengisKahn]

They dont make these nerfs based upon a dice roll.

 

They have data or they would not have made the nerf.

 

This is a business for goodness sake, not a game of Tunnels and Trolls in your mom's basement.

 

Yes this is a business, and that's why they looked at the data and saw 70% of the population being inquisitors and sages crying about OP operatives, so to favor their business, they nerfed operatives even when they didnt need it to please the crying sages/inquisitors, which have more tools at their disposal.

[Cowflab]

The "post avobe me" plays against afk players.

 

Excuses, excuses... He backs his statements with data and strategy. You with "nuh uh, you can't do that."

 

L2P and come back. Thanks... Bye.

[GengisKahn]

Excuses, excuses... He backs his statements with data and strategy. You with "nuh uh, you can't do that."

 

L2P and come back. Thanks... Bye.

 

I dstroyed his argument with strategies too. I already asnwered that post.

 

I know how to play, thats why i have been killing operatives since first day.

 

You are the ones that cant and need to L2P.

Edited January 22, 2012 by GengisKahn

[Cowflab]

They dont make these nerfs based upon a dice roll.

 

They have data or they would not have made the nerf.

 

This is a business for goodness sake, not a game of Tunnels and Trolls in your mom's basement.

 

It's entertaining that these players just think the dev team is out to get them and hates their class. Just because players can't access a combat log or data doesn't mean the devs can't. It's pretty ridiculous.

 

Kids will be kids. Throwing temper tantrums and what not...

Edited January 22, 2012 by Cowflab

[bathrobe]

No you dont, cc ops sucks, and you have to kill fast because YOU ARE THE EASIER CLASS TO KITE.

 

Your capslock almost convinced me, but despite the persuasive power of large letters, I still must disagree.

 

Learn to pre-emptively root, and watch those assassins/sorcerers waste their sprint. It works even on targets with a full resolve bar. It's also hilarious to see them do their little superman whoosh and end up exactly where they started, but that's just a bonus.

 

Learn 2 Kite and the come back. You have 2 skills that you can use above 10 m range, none of them do good damage and you have 0 gap closers.

 

Explosive probe crits for between 3-4k depending on what buffs I have going at the time. Snipe crits for 2.5k, corrosive dart ticks for 600 and keeps ignorant stealthies from vanishing for more than 3 seconds, and rifle shot deals about 800-1200 on average and you can spam it while running. Meanwhile I'm running at a constant 15% increased speed in combat, whittling down my opponent. Do I get knocked of platforms sometimes? Of course I do, but I also understand the capabilities of the class I'm fighting, so more often than not I'm able to predict the knockback and position myself accordingly. There's nothing more fun than having an obstacle to your back when a merc blows his knockback only to find you right in his face a second and a half later.

 

Even if you do get knocked into a position where you can no longer continue the fight, you can still heal up and find a new target. Try learning to use all the abilities you do have rather than complaining about everything we don't. No one class has everything, but we've got a lot.

 

Edit:

 

I dstroyed his argument with strategies too. I already asnwered that post.

 

Where?

 

I know how to play, thats why i have been killing operatives since first day.

 

You are the ones that cant and need to L2P.

 

I play Reila on the server Davik's Estate. I was not one of the first to 50, I'm not the most geared or the most skilled and I certainly don't have the most playtime, but make a new toon and ask around about me. Any level 50 above rank 30 will recognize the name. Ask them whether I only attack AFK targets, or only queue with pocket heals, or whether or not I know how to kite.

 

Are you ready to stop posting assumptions, generalities, and bravado so we can talk numbers like reasonable people, or are you too enamored of straw-man arguments?

Edited January 22, 2012 by bathrobe

[GengisKahn]

Your capslock almost convinced me, but despite the persuasive power of large letters, I still must disagree.

 

Learn to pre-emptively root, and watch those assassins/sorcerers waste their sprint. It works even on targets with a full resolve bar. It's also hilarious to see them do their little superman whoosh and end up exactly where they started, but that's just a bonus.

 

 

 

Explosive probe crits for between 3-4k depending on what buffs I have going at the time. Snipe crits for 2.5k, corrosive dart ticks for 600 and keeps ignorant stealthies from vanishing for more than 3 seconds, and rifle shot deals about 800-1200 on average and you can spam it while running. Meanwhile I'm running at a constant 15% increased speed in combat, whittling down my opponent. Do I get knocked of platforms sometimes? Of course I do, but I also understand the capabilities of the class I'm fighting, so more often than not I'm able to predict the knockback and position myself accordingly. There's nothing more fun than having an obstacle to your back when a merc blows his knockback only to find you right in his face a second and a half later.

 

Even if you do get knocked into a position where you can no longer continue the fight, you can still heal up and find a new target. Try learning to use all the abilities you do have rather than complaining about everything we don't. No one class has everything, but we've got a lot.

 

Those assasins have a slow with greater range than yours. Sorceres will knockback you and even with a slow will get to more than 10m. Explosive probe needds you to go into cover, wasting 1.5 seconds, in that time they will continue to kill you. You wont outheal a sorcerer or any other advanced class for that matter as concealment spec, dont even dream about it. They will not run from you (not if they are good) they will kite you by stayiing at more tan 10m while continuing to kill you.

 

Those assasins also have a knockback, a knocdownd AND a stun if you are still catching them.

Edited January 22, 2012 by GengisKahn

[Cowflab]

Those assasins have a slow with greater range than yours. Sorceres will knockback you and even with a slow will get to more than 10m. Explosive probe needds you to go into cover, wasting 1.5 seconds, in that time they will continue to kill you. You wont outheal a sorcerer or any other advanced class for that matter as concealment spec, dont even dream about it. They will not run from you (not if they are good) they will kite you by stayiing at more tan 10m while continuing to kill you.

 

See this is what I mean... You obviously don't know what preemptive means either. That is one of your biggest advantages playing a stealth class and it clearly escapes you.

[GengisKahn]

See this is what I mean... You obviously don't know what preemptive means either. That is one of your biggest advantages playing a stealth class and it clearly escapes you.

 

 

I edited to make it more clear about assasins also having knockbacks, knocdowns and stuns to let the root finish its duration.

 

Let the grown ups talk between each other if you have nothing to add except constant trolling.

[Cowflab]

I edited to make it more clear about assasins also having knockbacks, knocdowns and stuns to let the root finish its duration.

 

Let the grown ups talk between each other if you have nothing to add except constant trolling.

 

A knockback... A knockdown(from stealth unless tank specd)... And a stun. Please don't patronize other people as if you're approaching a debate maturely and intellectually if you're constantly exaggerating the circumstances.

[GengisKahn]

Edit:

 

 

 

Where?

 

 

 

I play Reila on the server Davik's Estate. I was not one of the first to 50, I'm not the most geared or the most skilled and I certainly don't have the most playtime, but make a new toon and ask around about me. Any level 50 above rank 30 will recognize the name. Ask them whether I only attack AFK targets, or only queue with pocket heals, or whether or not I know how to kite.

 

Are you ready to stop posting assumptions, generalities, and bravado so we can talk numbers like reasonable people, or are you too enamored of straw-man arguments?

 

Ok, you edited.

 

Where? You wont spend 6 seconds hitting a good player without receiving ccs, you wont get near the back of a good player after those 6 seconds (sure, you will get in the back of keyboard turners, but they are not good pvp players), good players with good reaction times will get up of your knockback, and many of them will actually see your shadow when you get near and dot you at that instant.

 

And the out of stealth combo, i think i explained pretty good in the post i answered your why its not a good one.

 

Also, enamored?

Edited January 22, 2012 by GengisKahn

[GengisKahn]

A knockback... A knockdown(from stealth unless tank specd)... And a stun. Please don't patronize other people as if you're approaching a debate maturely and intellectually if you're constantly exaggerating the circumstances.

 

So thats not enough to let our 2 sec root duration end?

Edited January 22, 2012 by GengisKahn

[GengisKahn]

Just to clarify.

 

I'm not sying that a tweak to the spec would have been wrong. Maybe the 20% nerf to HS damage, but that alone.

 

Acid blade should have never been nerfed because thats a PVE ability also and will destroy any chance (already low) of a concealment operative being used in PVE.

 

And the jarring strike nerf was also unnecesary.

 

The point is, Operatives were not OP, a tweak would not be out of place, but this huge nerf will completely destroy the spec.

Edited January 22, 2012 by GengisKahn

[bathrobe]

Explosive probe needds you to go into cover, wasting 1.5 seconds

 

Cover has no global cooldown. You'll waste 1/4th of a second if you're good, 3/4ths if you're not

 

Those assasins have a slow with greater range than yours. [Assassins and] Sorceres will knockback you and even with a slow will get to more than 10m.

 

Those assasins also have a knockback, a knocdownd AND a stun if you are still catching them.

 

You seemed confused about the differences between sorcerers and assassins. I separated them for you.

 

Good geared assassins are a tough fight if they get the jump on you, which is fine be since they get destroyed by ops who get the jump on them. Their slow is longer range than yours, but they still have to come into melee range to do more than token damage against you. They have a resistance cooldown which negates our tech damage for a few seconds. We have evasion that negates their lightsaber attacks for a few seconds. They have a knockback true, but they still have to come back into melee range to use anything but a buffed force lightning on us. they have a stun and a throwdown. We have a stun, an 8 second mez, and, with the opener or vanish, a throwdown. We also have dots, which makes their vanish chancy as hell. Once we vanish against an assassin, we're off scott free.

 

Long story short, both assassins and ops have different strengths and weaknesses, and each can generally escape the other if they have the correct cooldowns up at the time and use them correctly. I fail to see how this is a bad situation.

 

You wont outheal a sorcerer or any other advanced class for that matter as concealment spec, dont even dream about it. They will not run from you (not if they are good) they will kite you by stayiing at more tan 10m while continuing to kill you.

 

Sorceres will knockback you and even with a slow will get to more than 10m.

 

Lightning sorcerers do pitiful damage on the run. Madness sorcerors have no root, and can't whirlwind you if you're dotted. If you can't draw the fight out long enough to get out of line of sight, then they caught you at 30% health with no cooldowns and deserve to kill you easily. Once out of line of sight, the sorcerer must choose to either let you heal, or come into melee range. Either way, you gain the advantage.

 

Btw. I think you might be confused. Balance doesn't mean you get to win every encounter every time. Sometimes you just escape, sometimes they escape, sometimes you weaken the enemy enough that they run away and are easy pickings for someone else, and sometimes you die. That's just the way of it.

[Cowflab]

Cover has no global cooldown. You'll waste 1/4th of a second if you're good, 3/4ths if you're not

 

 

 

You seemed confused about the differences between sorcerers and assassins. I separated them for you.

 

Good geared assassins are a tough fight if they get the jump on you, which is fine be since they get destroyed by ops who get the jump on them. Their slow is longer range than yours, but they still have to come into melee range to do more than token damage against you. They have a resistance cooldown which negates our tech damage for a few seconds. We have evasion that negates their lightsaber attacks for a few seconds. They have a knockback true, but they still have to come back into melee range to use anything but a buffed force lightning on us. they have a stun and a throwdown. We have a stun, an 8 second mez, and, with the opener or vanish, a throwdown. We also have dots, which makes their vanish chancy as hell. Once we vanish against an assassin, we're off scott free.

 

Long story short, both assassins and ops have different strengths and weaknesses, and each can generally escape the other if they have the correct cooldowns up at the time and use them correctly. I fail to see how this is a bad situation.

 

 

 

Lightning sorcerers do pitiful damage on the run. Madness sorcerors have no root, and can't whirlwind you if you're dotted. If you can't draw the fight out long enough to get out of line of sight, then they caught you at 30% health with no cooldowns and deserve to kill you easily. Once out of line of sight, the sorcerer must choose to either let you heal, or come into melee range. Either way, you gain the advantage.

 

Btw. I think you might be confused. Balance doesn't mean you get to win every encounter every time. Sometimes you just escape, sometimes they escape, sometimes you weaken the enemy enough that they run away and are easy pickings for someone else, and sometimes you die. That's just the way of it.

 

A rational thinker in the ops sub forum? Say it isn't so. 90% of the players complaining are used to winning the majority of their encounters because, quite frankly, the opening sequence is broken and overpowered. Do they win 100% of the time, no. But more often than not they would skirt away from their victim with 80% or more HP unless the opposition got lucky with ability lag and a well timed cc break. That is not a fair encounter in any sane mind.

 

BTW, I play and am fairly experienced on a deception assassin and I'd say your summary is pretty spot on. I don't understand why all of these players seem to assume I play a sorc because I disagree with them.

Edited January 22, 2012 by Cowflab

[bathrobe]

Ok, you edited.

 

Where? You wont spend 6 seconds hitting a good player without receiving ccs,

Even so, doing 8-12k damage in the duration of the knockdown puts the fight decidedly in your favor. If they trinket the knockdown and draw the fight out, they will still be in defensive mode, and focusing on drawing the fight out. Often the resolve bar will run out, and you can CC at your leisure, knowing they can't do jack-all about it.

 

you wont get near the back of a good player after those 6 seconds (sure, you will get in the back of keyboard turners, but they are not good pvp players)

 

Don't be ridiculous. This isn't WoW and we're not feral druids. Backstab is not a difficult spell to get off in this game.

 

good players with good reaction times will get up of your knockback

 

See above.

 

and many of them will actually see your shadow when you get near and dot you at that instant.

The better ones will use a non-targeted AoE if it's available. Trying to target someone in stealth, even when you know they're there, is much more difficult than it ought to be with the current programming. Even so, a dot would be a terrible choice since it would take 3 seconds to tick, during which time any decent stealthy would have opened.

 

Sneak is your friend. If it's not up, learn to position yourself better. Try and avoid walking in front of targets, especially ones with increased stealth detection, like troopers and BH's.

 

And the out of stealth combo, i think i explained pretty good in the post i answered your why its not a good one.

 

Did you make a single specific counterargument without simply listing enemy abilities at random and claiming victory? I must have missed it.

 

Also, enamored?

 

Try reading a book on occasion. If that fails there's always:

 

http://dictionary.reference.com/

[Cowflab]

Even so, doing 8-12k damage in the duration of the knockdown puts the fight decidedly in your favor. If they trinket the knockdown and draw the fight out, they will still be in defensive mode, and focusing on drawing the fight out. Often the resolve bar will run out, and you can CC at your leisure, knowing they can't do jack-all about it.

 

 

 

Don't be ridiculous. This isn't WoW and we're not feral druids. Backstab is not a difficult spell to get off in this game.

 

 

 

See above.

 

The better ones will use a non-targeted AoE if it's available. Trying to target someone in stealth, even when you know they're there, is much more difficult than it ought to be with the current programming. Even so, a dot would be a terrible choice since it would take 3 seconds to tick, during which time any decent stealthy would have opened.

 

Sneak is your friend. If it's not up, learn to position yourself better. Try and avoid walking in front of targets, especially ones with increased stealth detection, like troopers and BH's.

 

 

 

Did you make a single specific counterargument without simply listing enemy abilities at random and claiming victory? I must have missed it.

 

 

 

Try reading a book on occasion. If that fails there's always:

 

http://dictionary.reference.com/

 

Once again, great post. The feral druid reference seems to fit better when applied to assassins, deception in particular. Maul and Shred are pretty much the same spell with the same problems in different games.

[GengisKahn]

Cover has no global cooldown. You'll waste 1/4th of a second if you're good, 3/4ths if you're not

 

 

 

You seemed confused about the differences between sorcerers and assassins. I separated them for you.

 

Good geared assassins are a tough fight if they get the jump on you, which is fine be since they get destroyed by ops who get the jump on them. Their slow is longer range than yours, but they still have to come into melee range to do more than token damage against you. They have a resistance cooldown which negates our tech damage for a few seconds. We have evasion that negates their lightsaber attacks for a few seconds. They have a knockback true, but they still have to come back into melee range to use anything but a buffed force lightning on us. they have a stun and a throwdown. We have a stun, an 8 second mez, and, with the opener or vanish, a throwdown. We also have dots, which makes their vanish chancy as hell. Once we vanish against an assassin, we're off scott free.

 

Long story short, both assassins and ops have different strengths and weaknesses, and each can generally escape the other if they have the correct cooldowns up at the time and use them correctly. I fail to see how this is a bad situation.

 

 

 

Lightning sorcerers do pitiful damage on the run. Madness sorcerors have no root, and can't whirlwind you if you're dotted. If you can't draw the fight out long enough to get out of line of sight, then they caught you at 30% health with no cooldowns and deserve to kill you easily. Once out of line of sight, the sorcerer must choose to either let you heal, or come into melee range. Either way, you gain the advantage.

 

Btw. I think you might be confused. Balance doesn't mean you get to win every encounter every time. Sometimes you just escape, sometimes they escape, sometimes you weaken the enemy enough that they run away and are easy pickings for someone else, and sometimes you die. That's just the way of it.

 

I didnt said it was a bad situation, i'm actually saying it was balanced.

They also have the shock to throw at us, not just the force lightning.

We wont be balanced with this nerf, because we would have lost our advantage over them, which is our burst.

 

A lightning sorcerer will do pitifull damage on the run compared to the one they do statinoary, but will do a lot more damage than you on the run. Belive me, if a good lightning sorcerre got to 10m from you, you are dead.

 

Dont forget that their force lightning slows you, so if you run anywhere except to where they are to try to LOS them, you will have trouble.

 

Also, they can heal too while you heal, and faster.

 

I'm not confused about balance. When things are balanced both have a chance to win, thats how the situatin is NOW. With the new huge nerfs, that wont be the situation.

[Cowflab]

I didnt said it was a bad situation, i'm actually saying it was balanced.

They also have the shock to throw at us, not just the force lightning.

We wont be balanced with this nerf, because we would have lost our advantage over them, which is our burst.

 

A lightning sorcerer will do pitifull damage on the run compared to the one they do statinoary, but will do a lot more damage than you on the run. Belive me, if a good lightning sorcerre got to 10m from you, you are dead.

 

Dont forget that their force lightning slows you, so if you run anywhere except to where they are to try to LOS them, you will have trouble.

 

Also, they can heal too while you heal, and faster.

 

I'm not confused about balance. When things are balanced both have a chance to win, thats how the situatin is NOW. With the new huge nerfs, that wont be the situation.

 

Wrong again. The way it is now, heavily favors you. No other class has this situation other than current operatives. It seems to me that you just need to do a better job setting up and choosing your fights from stealth. It is not balanced in its current state. You're delusional if you think getting a 40-60% HP headstart on ANY CLASS IN THE GAME is balanced in any way, shape, or form.