Shadowswillm Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 Content is already being facerolled, but you know what ? I actually like that normal raids are accessible, and that's part of their fun. That you can go inside a raid without stims, tactics, and proper PvE gear and with a little perception and quick thinking, can down most, if not all, bosses in the second try. The only real hitch to the facerollingly normal raids are the bugs that plague most fights which add a bit of excitement/frustration to a fight And that is also why I love raiding in SWTOR : if you want a more chilled-out experience, head for a normal raid and just have fun Even the loot distribution is designed around pugs and past nightmares about ninja/jawa looters But if you want an even more intense and organized experience, switch to hard, which I feel currently is about the normal difficulty of most other MMOs raids. They even have separate lockouts so you can do both And if you're still looking for a challenge, try your hand in Nightmare mode. Something for everyone You like content being faceroll, that's good for you. I do not, I have fun by setting the bar high, failing a few times then finally getting over the bar and repeating that process until my eyes bleed and body shuts down. The better the challenge the funner. Thus the "Hardcore" Vs "Casual" debate and war continues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archifikoss Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 Because it seems to me the only thing you dislike about hardcore players asking for better stuff is the fact that they're asking for better stuff? And how it "doesn't really matter!" I mean, it's not as if casual players will really notice the majority of the changes that hardcore players are looking for. It's also not unreasonable to say that the changes that they want are for the overall betterment of the game - "Ilum is really messed up!" "Slicing is way too easy money!" "These animations are not responsive!" "Crafting needs to be better!" "Your class mirroring is not really mirroring!" How, I might ask, would these harm the casual player? If these seem like loaded examples, I'd like to see someone present a case in which a request that's common with hardcore players harms the casual base? (the animations problem is one thing that I actually really care about. My control/utility abilities don't go off until like, forever. I can really feel it in PVP.) I don't have anything against "hardcore" players, some of the most interesting people on these boards are "hardcore". What I can't stand is arrogant, entitled and whiny players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueRahja Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 (edited) How, I might ask, would these harm the casual player? None of your examples harm the casual player. If all hardcore players wanted was streamline gaming, then there should be no difference between hardcore and casual. I think the difference comes with the "hardcore elitist". The sniveling degenerate malformed basement creature in a monocle and top hat, banging away at their keyboard demanding things like content that only 1% of the player base will ever see. I used to be one of these creatures until I shed my husky outer layer and evolved back into a "gamer". Not all the way hardcore, but not casual either. But memories of my days as one of these foul creatures still reside in the murky depths of my mind. I remember in Luclin EQ, I farmed this insanely long key grind, defeated bosses no other guilds could beat and proudly assembled my key to give me access to a zone nobody other then my guildmates would ever see on our server. We were so proud of ourselves. In retrospect I don't think anyone outside our little group cared at all though. I guess the easiest to envision example would be, imagine that guy on your server who rides that silly looking 1.5 million dollar mount around the fleet in circles for most of the day. Now image on the other side of the computer is that creature from "The Labyrinth" Hoggle (add top hat and monocle). And all he wants people to do is notice him. He yearns for it, and his silly little car fills that need. When they start designing entire gear sets and content for these creatures is where the casuals and even some of the hardcore players get up in arms. That is far more resource allocation then is necessary to inflate the ego of these things. I think even WoW figured that out and thus added in "hard modes" which was just the same fight, only harder, and the gear was normally just recoloured versions of existing things. Minimal resource devotion, sad creature still feels like beautiful unique snowflake. TL;DR? Casuals, and even just socially adjusted hardcore players don't want vast developer resources wasted validating 1% of the player populations ego. They do however support streamlined gaming, and fixed bugs. Edited January 20, 2012 by BlueRahja Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashaari Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 This is sheerly an issue of a small percentage of players (Blizzard estimated 6% see end game raiding content in WoW) demanding special treatment so that they can feel special. Understandably the other 94% of players believe that as they pay the same to play then the developers should spend more time on bug fixing and content that will be available to the larger group. The " we are superior" attitude and disparaging comments of a section of the hardcore community dont sit well with most casual players i.e. scrubs, noobs etc. Also the majority of this section of their community need to understand that time played doesnt automatically equal higher skill levels. Posts by hardcore players frequently highlight issues which do need to be addressed, however, they also make selfish demands in their need to have completed all content asap, which are derogatory to the larger player base i.e. gears scores, damage meters etc. Having been an end game raider (many server firsts) in WoW for many years from Vanilla to WotLK, I can say that for me personally there was more satisfaction and enjoyment from Vanilla raiding than for TBC or WotLK i.e. the days before gear score, LFG, Damage/threat meters, tactics web sites etc etc. I hav'nt played WoW for over a year, I got bored, the optional add-ons were no longer optional and the game became too easy - It would be a shame if SWTOR heads down the same path, especially this early in its life cycle, but thats what many of the "hardcore" posters seem to be asking for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jessabeans Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 There is not reward for contact hours in an online game. Everyone is on equal footing as everyone is a customer. As it stands, MMOs are developed for the enjoyment of the 'hardcore' players, also known as 'one foot out the door' players. Predictable gated content is rolled out to keep players who blow through content interested in the game and retain them as subscribers. The reason this is done is beyond me, the reason that one vocal minority gets catered to while other loyal players quietly pay for subscriptions month after month year after year is also beyond me. I suppose my only problem with 'hardcore' players is that they typically come and play the wrong game (ie playing a roleplay game when they want a FPS for pvp) and complain at the developers until they end up transforming a game 'for everyone' to a game for people that likely have bailed ship already. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archifikoss Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 The funny thing is that to people who don't play videogames, spending 25 Euros every 2 months for a subscription is viewed as 'hardcore" and "there is something wrong with you", even if you don't play more than an hour a day... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackalious Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 They split PvP because of these so called hardcore gamers. They gave everybody what they wanted a level playing field. With that said I have a job that I sometimes work 60 to 70 hours a week I could never compete with someone who can sit behind their computer 10 hours a day. Within 15 days people were saying they went to level 50 in 100-115 hours of game time. I could get that time in for three months. So yes their should be a ceiling why should I play or open world PvP if I don't have a prayer. Keep me on the level I don't mind the cloner every now and again but I at least want to compete. Give me a small chance to win and it will be fun let me get rolled and well needless to say I will do the same as L2 I will stop playing cause it will not be fun. L2 i was level 15 and kept getting rolled by a red level 35. Let keep it at a level playing field. So all can enjoy the game. As for the Hardcore gamer I feel for you but it just isn't right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baaddare Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 Because it seems to me the only thing you dislike about hardcore players asking for better stuff is the fact that they're asking for better stuff? And how it "doesn't really matter!" I mean, it's not as if casual players will really notice the majority of the changes that hardcore players are looking for. It's also not unreasonable to say that the changes that they want are for the overall betterment of the game - "Ilum is really messed up!" "Slicing is way too easy money!" "These animations are not responsive!" "Crafting needs to be better!" "Your class mirroring is not really mirroring!" How, I might ask, would these harm the casual player? If these seem like loaded examples, I'd like to see someone present a case in which a request that's common with hardcore players harms the casual base? (the animations problem is one thing that I actually really care about. My control/utility abilities don't go off until like, forever. I can really feel it in PVP.) mods addons DPS meters Xserver LFD shall i go on with the list of stuff the "hardcore" people have asked for that effects all. The few things you mention correctly are loaded examples. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baaddare Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 Pie vs Cake cupcake vs cake Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Falkelord Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 (edited) How, I might ask, would these harm the casual player? If these seem like loaded examples, I'd like to see someone present a case in which a request that's common with hardcore players harms the casual base? (the animations problem is one thing that I actually really care about. My control/utility abilities don't go off until like, forever. I can really feel it in PVP.) Gonna do my best to keep away the flamebats. Good example I always love: damage meters. It's great to be able to parse your data and figure out what you need improvement in, right? Can't deny the benefits. The problem lies in the rest of the community that then adopts the same strategy blindly, not actually understanding the purpose of damage meters. Instead of parsing data to figure out where you're lacking, it's used as a benchmark of who's bad and who's good based solely on damage output and not on actual skill performing (like a caster who runs around avoiding fires versus one that makes healers heal him so he can get that extra 200 dps). Does that make sense? By the way, I'm not opposed to hardcore players or anything, I just think that when you ask for something, ask also "how could this be misconstrued by someone who doesn't understand it?" Edited January 20, 2012 by Falkelord Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RachelAnne Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 Because it seems to me the only thing you dislike about hardcore players asking for better stuff is the fact that they're asking for better stuff? And how it "doesn't really matter!" I mean, it's not as if casual players will really notice the majority of the changes that hardcore players are looking for. It's also not unreasonable to say that the changes that they want are for the overall betterment of the game - "Ilum is really messed up!" "Slicing is way too easy money!" "These animations are not responsive!" "Crafting needs to be better!" "Your class mirroring is not really mirroring!" How, I might ask, would these harm the casual player? If these seem like loaded examples, I'd like to see someone present a case in which a request that's common with hardcore players harms the casual base? (the animations problem is one thing that I actually really care about. My control/utility abilities don't go off until like, forever. I can really feel it in PVP.) I think... what people dislike is the result that would come by adding LFD, Addons or Dual spec´s for hardcores. All these things will make the game much worse for casuals, as they now will be in the same trap like at wow. Insults for not high end performance, insults for not beeing intresting in performing 2 roles, insults for not overgering content etc. I think MMO´s should offer casual and elitist server´s and then the elitist´s can have all that stuff and the casuals play for themselfs in peace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rigo Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 mods addons DPS meters Xserver LFD shall i go on with the list of stuff the "hardcore" people have asked for that effects all. The few things you mention correctly are loaded examples. So these things only "hardcore" could benefit from? How do these things not benefit a casual player also? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vassaggo Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 Because it seems to me the only thing you dislike about hardcore players asking for better stuff is the fact that they're asking for better stuff? And how it "doesn't really matter!" I mean, it's not as if casual players will really notice the majority of the changes that hardcore players are looking for. It's also not unreasonable to say that the changes that they want are for the overall betterment of the game - "Ilum is really messed up!" "Slicing is way too easy money!" "These animations are not responsive!" "Crafting needs to be better!" "Your class mirroring is not really mirroring!" How, I might ask, would these harm the casual player? If these seem like loaded examples, I'd like to see someone present a case in which a request that's common with hardcore players harms the casual base? (the animations problem is one thing that I actually really care about. My control/utility abilities don't go off until like, forever. I can really feel it in PVP.) Hardcore players are whiny little girls, all of them. Same with the pvp crowd... Your answer has been Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baaddare Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 I've been playing MMOs 16 years and I can assure you that is EXACTLY what most of the hardcore want, and actively come out against anything that isn't that, especially anything that is "fluff". sad but true Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iusedtoplaywow Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 Well that's pretty easy when you normal demand is...."WE WANT MORE RAIDS!!1111" followed by "ANYONE WHO PLAYS LESS THAN 26 HOURS A DAY SHOULD NOT HAVE GEAR EVEN CLOSE TO ME!!!!1111" Who EVER says this? God people like you are just useless on this planet. I quite literally hate you IRL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HELhikari Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 I don't have any guys, so none of them can have a problem with hardcore players. Because they don't exist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baaddare Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 But none of them have asked for it HERE. The requests have been 'please fix this bug' 'pleases balance x to y' 'please add this feature'. They still get jumped on for being 'eliteist' and get the whole 'we dont want your kind here' thing. um have you been reading the same forums I have. All the players ask for bug fixs. The "hardcore' are the ones mostly pushing for things like DPS meters and calling anyone who offers a counter argument a scrub ( and thats nice compared to what is actually said) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jessabeans Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 (edited) I mean, it's not as if casual players will really notice the majority of the changes that hardcore players are looking for. It's also not unreasonable to say that the changes that they want are for the overall betterment of the game Trust me, they do notice when the bug fixes or features they are missing go unchanged and ignored while endless content they will never see gets added. IE. Roleplayers asked to be able to sit in chairs, the first major patch includes pvp changes and a new instance. No mention of when they will add a normal sitting animation. To the players that matters to, sitting in chairs DOES add to the 'overall betterment of the game.' The ability to sit down might not matter to you, but a level 50 instance to someone who will not reach level 50 for several more months is about the same level of absurd uselessness. Edited January 20, 2012 by Jessabeans Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ageNtreachery Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 Because it seems to me the only thing you dislike about hardcore players asking for better stuff is the fact that they're asking for better stuff? And how it "doesn't really matter!" I mean, it's not as if casual players will really notice the majority of the changes that hardcore players are looking for. It's also not unreasonable to say that the changes that they want are for the overall betterment of the game - "Ilum is really messed up!" "Slicing is way too easy money!" "These animations are not responsive!" "Crafting needs to be better!" "Your class mirroring is not really mirroring!" How, I might ask, would these harm the casual player? If these seem like loaded examples, I'd like to see someone present a case in which a request that's common with hardcore players harms the casual base? (the animations problem is one thing that I actually really care about. My control/utility abilities don't go off until like, forever. I can really feel it in PVP.) Hardcore player started an arms race between wow raid devs and the mod devs and totally screwed the game thats why I dont trust them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xGETGOTx Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 They are afraid that it will bocome a leetest game and they will fail at it like they failed at WoW. Why else would any1 not want a DMG meter... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xGETGOTx Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 Hardcore player started an arms race between wow raid devs and the mod devs and totally screwed the game thats why I dont trust them see... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baaddare Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 I try to stay out of hardcore versus casual fights. I have been both in my many years of gaming. Just for a bit of trivia numbers for everyone to digest. It is very easy to get to 50 in 4 days /played time. how long it takes you to wrap up those 96 hours is going to be different for each of us. Also, some will spend time exploring and hanging out with guildies rather than straight balls to the wall leveling, which can easily result in 6 days /played. 96 hours is all it takes, that is just 2.2 hours a day since pre-launch. At 144 hours. you are only looking at 3.4 hours a day. Even casual players will be looking for things to do within months 2 and 3 of this game. Yeah, some have bad attitudes about their complaints and vision of the game to come but most have a legitimate gripe buried within their trolling. that's all I have, I will be going back to the game and might see these forums again in a month. See the 96 hours is part of the issue. The game is developed to take 200 hours to reach 50. We all know it can be done faster. So then those who ripped though the content want more 50+ added as a priority to all else because gosh darn it the played 24/7 and it is just not fair to them. Who cares about Voice and cut scences why waste 5 minutes getting places this all gets in my way in my race to 50. Why should i make an alt i want to just play this one toon and you better keep adding more stuff for me to do at 50+. I would disagree about the casuals they will happily roll an alt and enjoy a new storyline. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KrelosDarksky Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 Because it seems to me the only thing you dislike about hardcore players asking for better stuff is the fact that they're asking for better stuff? And how it "doesn't really matter!" I mean, it's not as if casual players will really notice the majority of the changes that hardcore players are looking for. It's also not unreasonable to say that the changes that they want are for the overall betterment of the game - "Ilum is really messed up!" "Slicing is way too easy money!" "These animations are not responsive!" "Crafting needs to be better!" "Your class mirroring is not really mirroring!" How, I might ask, would these harm the casual player? If these seem like loaded examples, I'd like to see someone present a case in which a request that's common with hardcore players harms the casual base? (the animations problem is one thing that I actually really care about. My control/utility abilities don't go off until like, forever. I can really feel it in PVP.) Because in most cases they are jerkholes asking for things that they are not entitled to. Not to mention that because they play 12 hours a day (or more) or because they don't have a life outside of the FOTM game they are trying to ruin, they think they are better than everyone else or MORE entitled to something than others. I'll add that this so-called 'better' stuff that hardcore gamers ask for isn't usually better. usually it's just something they want to have catered to them because of this false sense of entitlement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allagash Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 (edited) Tldr version. Hardcore gamers: wahhhh wahhhhh Casual gamers: (crickets chirping) Hardcore gamers: no real social life outside of the game, utilizes feeling godly in game from fighting Internet space monsters as a milestone in life. Potentially because they lack elsewhere. They could be good at other things but this is easier, mindset of lazy people. Casual gamers: work hard because mom or disability checks dont pay the bills, college is long over. Family is more important than the computer desk. Promotions and life events like having children and social outings are valued. casual gamers make the world go round. Without them you would have no game. So be thankful of us casual gamers you hardcore folk, you need us but we surely do not need you! Or your complaining elitist attitudes! Edited January 20, 2012 by Allagash Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baaddare Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 So these things only "hardcore" could benefit from? How do these things not benefit a casual player also? I would suggest you read all the posts all over the fourms as most are very very very long about the pros and cons on these items. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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