Temeluchus Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 (edited) Other than WoW's success, which was built on a foundation that was far more hardcore than it is now, I'd like to see some examples of MMO's that have had great success by building on a more casual format. I keep seeing this "developers go where the money is" argument, but I have yet to see a single example where the developer actually succeeded with this strategy in a subscriber based MMO. There's no evidence that casual players can make up the backbone of a subscription-based MMO. It drains all life out of the game when its too easy, gives your game a bad reputation, and makes even casual players not want to play it. WoW's success was due to it being far more casual friendly than its predecessors. Are you aware of how long it took to grind to the level cap in EQ, let alone clear the 8.5 million(rough estimate) raids they had? That you could delevel from the death penalties? WoW put a different spin on leveling and raiding, but it was in no way more hardcore than those that came before it. There is plenty of evidence to support the fact that a majority of any game's subscribers are casual, look at polls based on the average amount of time played per day. It might not be direct evidence, but if you use a bit of logic and connect the dots, you can see who the majority are. Edited January 17, 2012 by Temeluchus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MiepMiep Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Well, iam playing swotor for the pvp... or rather would be playing if i could actualy do my daily and weekly pvp quests. Which i cant. The warzone quests are buggy and wont update after wins. Ok, so after a while trying to fix it i thought of writing a ticket.... Which i cant. The ticket ui is bugged too and wont allow me to send a bug report... Sooooo, **** it, lets do some PvE with gildies instead, get your daily pve quests and slaughter some npcs with your gildmates. Weeeeeellll, you may have guessed it already. I cant, because the PvE Terminal is buggy and wont give me any missions at all. Great work, wtg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimer_Lins Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 (edited) If you accept this premise Premise is incorrect and not supported by evidence. Many "hardcore" and "MMO veterans" are happy with the game. Do not make the mistake so many have; the forums are not a representation of the state of the game or its player sentiment. Edited January 17, 2012 by Jimer_Lins Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gehoornde Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 You're not an "MMO-vet" if you didn't play Neverwinter Nights. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jett-Rinn Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 WoW's success was due to it being far more casual friendly than its predecessors. Are you aware of how long it took to grind to the level cap in EQ, let alone clear the 8.5 million(rough estimate) raids they had? That you could delevel from the death penalties? WoW put a different spin on leveling and raiding, but it was in no way more hardcore than those that came before it. There is plenty of evidence to support the fact that a majority of any game's subscribers are casual, look at polls based on the average amount of time played per day. It might not be direct evidence, but if you use a bit of logic and connect the dots, you can see who the majority are. That's well said...I have consulted for SOE, Cryptic, and Turbine for many years...and there biggest desire every time they bring consultants in are; "Help us make the game more efficient" and "What can we do to retain our casual base and attract more of the casual demographic." You never hear anything about hardcore progression Raiding..they gave up on that years ago and more and more developers are following suit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jswizzle Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 WoW's success was due to it being far more casual friendly than its predecessors. Are you aware of how long it took to grind to the level cap in EQ, let alone clear the 8.5 million(rough estimate) raids they had? That you could delevel from the death penalties? WoW put a different spin on leveling and raiding, but it was in no way more hardcore than those that came before it. There is plenty of evidence to support the fact that a majority of any game's subscribers are casual, look at polls based on the average amount of time played per day. It might not be direct evidence, but if you use a bit of logic and connect the dots, you can see who the majority are. Agree. People left EQ in droves because the game simply took too much time to accomplish things. People got sick of getting their lives sucked away. With that said though original EQ has a big casual player base today. I know this, because I was one of them. House of Thule expansions was very casual friendly. Same with Secrets of Faydwer, and Seeds of Destruction. Their latest expansion wasn't that casual friendly though and people didn't like it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GarbonzotheDude Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 WoW's success was due to it being far more casual friendly than its predecessors. Are you aware of how long it took to grind to the level cap in EQ, let alone clear the 8.5 million(rough estimate) raids they had? That you could delevel from the death penalties? WoW put a different spin on leveling and raiding, but it was in no way more hardcore than those that came before it. Exactly. I know that was one of the big reasons I left EQ for WoW when it launched. Being a casting class was a dream come true in WoW compared to having to be a kei crack fiend in EQ. Even then you hate to wait forever to regen mana. I miss the community EQ had but I don't miss a lot of those mechanics in that game in the least. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mannic Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 WoW's success was due to it being far more casual friendly than its predecessors. Are you aware of how long it took to grind to the level cap in EQ, let alone clear the 8.5 million(rough estimate) raids they had? That you could delevel from the death penalties? WoW put a different spin on leveling and raiding, but it was in no way more hardcore than those that came before it. There is plenty of evidence to support the fact that a majority of any game's subscribers are casual, look at polls based on the average amount of time played per day. It might not be direct evidence, but if you use a bit of logic and connect the dots, you can see who the majority are. No, WoW's success was due to it being written for a captive audience of 12 million battle.net members who had never played an MMO before. And while it was casual compared to EQ, it was in no way casual compared to current definitions of the word. Just because something succeeded by being "relatively more casual than its predecessors when it released 7 years ago" doesn't mean that continually going more and more casual continues to make a game more and more popular. That correlation does not exist. Fact is, MMO's before WoW tended to be ridiculously grindy and had virtually no endgame. The grind WAS the game. I don't think very many of us really want to go back to those times. But on the same token, that doesn't mean that "more casual is better because 7 years ago, going more casual worked well for one company that also had a LOT of other advantages going for it." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunryu Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Premise is incorrect and not supported by evidence. Many "hardcore" and "MMO veterans" are happy with the game. Do not make the mistake so many have; the forums are not a representation of the state of the game or its player sentiment. What about the quiet quitters? You know, the people who just leave without saying a word, do you know how many of them there are? We could be their voice for all you know......heck I know of 4 or 5 people who quit without saying a word one of whom bought the CE of the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jett-Rinn Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 You're not an "MMO-vet" if you didn't play Neverwinter Nights. Best ....game....ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeytt Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 I am not rly harcore but will no be resubbing untill they fix the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alavastre Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 I'm a MMO veteran, and I really like this game. I think that's just too general of a term. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shortwave Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Best ....game....ever. Wrong! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jswizzle Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 No, WoW's success was due to it being written for a captive audience of 12 million battle.net members who had never played an MMO before. And while it was casual compared to EQ, it was in no way casual compared to current definitions of the word. Just because something succeeded by being "relatively more casual than its predecessors when it released 7 years ago" doesn't mean that continually going more and more casual continues to make a game more and more popular. That correlation does not exist. Fact is, MMO's before WoW tended to be ridiculously grindy and had virtually no endgame. The grind WAS the game. I don't think very many of us really want to go back to those times. But on the same token, that doesn't mean that "more casual is better because 7 years ago, going more casual worked well for one company that also had a LOT of other advantages going for it." Hey pal. Eq 1 has more endgame content than WOW will have in 10 more years. At the rate Blizzard adds content it might be 20 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jett-Rinn Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Wrong! It was for me Baldurs gate series was a close second and I have to list SWTOR as number three...I am still going through DA so I haven't made a verdict on that yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merrinset Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 (edited) No, WoW's success was due to it being written for a captive audience of 12 million battle.net members who had never played an MMO before. And while it was casual compared to EQ, it was in no way casual compared to current definitions of the word. Just because something succeeded by being "relatively more casual than its predecessors when it released 7 years ago" doesn't mean that continually going more and more casual continues to make a game more and more popular. That correlation does not exist. Fact is, MMO's before WoW tended to be ridiculously grindy and had virtually no endgame. The grind WAS the game. I don't think very many of us really want to go back to those times. But on the same token, that doesn't mean that "more casual is better because 7 years ago, going more casual worked well for one company that also had a LOT of other advantages going for it." I'm going to go out on a limb here and say WoW was your first MMO. I can agree with the grindy bit (even though WoW was grindtastic too), but if you think they had no end game compared to WoW, there is no way you ever played them. Edited January 17, 2012 by Merrinset Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shortwave Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 It was for me Baldurs gate series was a close second and I have to list SWTOR as number three...I am still going through DA so I haven't made a verdict on that yet. No, WoW is better than all that, and you know it. I love how WoW phobic this community is. Don't worry guys, once the romance companion patch rolls in you'll see Pandas aren't so lame after all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Temeluchus Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Hey pal. Eq 1 has more endgame content than WOW will have in 10 more years. At the rate Blizzard adds content it might be 20 years. Basically this, even at WoW's most "hardcore" in terms of raiding it doesn't hold a candle to what EQ had in it. WoW's success was offering a different,easier,polished and more fun alternative to EQ which they crafted some very fine lore for. Along the way Blizzard decided to worry about the money they make first rather than the fanbase,lore,gameplay etc and shot themselves in the foot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mannic Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 It was for me Baldurs gate series was a close second and I have to list SWTOR as number three...I am still going through DA so I haven't made a verdict on that yet. Oh, hey, all three of your "BEST GAMES EVAR" are Bioware titles. There's a shocker! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jswizzle Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 I wouldn't put 1 game from the 90s MMOs that was a must play to be a veteran. But yeah if you haven't at least played Neverwinter Nights, Meridian 59, Ultima Online, or original Everquest you probably aren't an MMO vet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jett-Rinn Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 No, WoW is better than all that, and you know it. I love how WoW phobic this community is. Don't worry guys, once the romance companion patch rolls in you'll see Pandas aren't so lame after all. I play WoW still have a lot of friends there but it isn't in my top five game list...EQ did a lot of things better than WoW ever did...I will give WoW props for making MMO's accessible and starting the Causal revolution and blazing the trail but it's top ten not top five. I also plan to buy MOP will probably even get the collectors ed I'm a fan so you can hardly call me phobic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skerry Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 I don't really think it is casual vs hardcore or anything like that; I think a LOT has to do with pesonal experience and expectations. Many of the people I have seen complaining AND calling themselves veteran MMO's are only veteran as much as 3 or 4 games, or been playing since WOW. This is one MMO veteran, veterans of the QQ Age of MMO's. Veterans of Golden Age MMO's (pre WOW / EQ2 and prior side of the fence) have different expectations as they really have been there seen that, and know that everything we are encountering is par for the course so it is much easier to deal with if even thought of as issues. Outside of that I see a great deal of This game isn't like That game so it sucks and is behind the times: which is just silly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oulush Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Really? Examples please. Other than WoW, all other subscriber-based MMO's fail on this format. And WoW was not nearly as casual when it was building its subscriber-base. If it had been as casual as it is now when it released, it never would have been half as popular. Wrong, Vanilla wow was changed after about a year, when casuals had no way to progress any further, as raiding required commitment that was not doable by the working people, families etc. After a year the game started going down hill, until finally Blizz gave up and introduced casual content to the players, as well as potential progress for casuals trough pvp. Even then, that progress took forever, and was not enough for many. PVP was not fun with only PVE gear, as those who couldn't raid got 1-2 shotted at all times, even at max level. Man games were released that focused on hardcore gaming, like Vanguard, but did not survive. Perhaps what hardcore players has to realize is that, many gamer's from the past today are working long hours, having families, and facing the responsibilities that life brings. These people still want to game, but if the game they play doesn't appeal on their lifestyle, they stop paying. These people can be relied on (they have money), they don't demand new content every other week (eases up the work load on developers) and don't judge a game with its cover (as they have played many games in the past, and can be patient and wait for the flaws to be fixed). Many older gamers nowadays sees gaming also as a family activity. If an MMO is going to require me and my son to play 6 hours a day to have some kind of a gear, I am not going to play that. However, I could play Starwars, do some quests together with my son, while having some snacks, and get some satisfaction out of it in a short period of time. This is more suitable to me than a game that would demand unrealistic devotion. I suspect many people who insult casuals have not experienced what it is like to have responsibilities, and fairly so, are ignorant to the reality. Most of the time, growing up fixes this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mannic Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 (edited) I'm going to go out on a limb here and say WoW was your first MMO. I can agree with the grindy bit (even though WoW was grindtastic too), but if you think they had no end game compared to WoW, there is no way you ever played them. I think you missed the fact that I was referring to MMO's in general, not specifically EQ, which is why I wrote that they "tended" to be that way. How many times had EQ been expanded by the time WoW came out? And no, WoW wasn't my first MMO, it was Eve. (Technically, it was Lineage, but I didn't stay with that game long enough to really even know what I was doing.) I didn't even play WoW until TBC, and even in TBC it was nowhere near as casual as this game is, nor as casual as what WoW is now. The point I'm making is that while going "more casual" in 2004 might have made sense, going more casual in "2012" is going too far to the opposite extreme. Edited January 17, 2012 by Mannic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gehoornde Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 I wouldn't put 1 game from the 90s MMOs that was a must play to be a veteran. But yeah if you haven't at least played Neverwinter Nights, Meridian 59, Ultima Online, or original Everquest you probably aren't an MMO vet. I agree 500% with this. Spot on!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts