Same gender relationships clarifications?

[Talkative]

I think that the fact of the persistence of this thread, and moderation's stated wish to keep it active and on-topic, tends to indicate that Bioware is not unaware that this feature is deeply important to some players.

 

I do not doubt that it is a lower priority than patches addressing game functionality - as it really should be. But I don't think it is necessarily being indefinitely postponed. I expect it will come with a regular content patch when they have something to add.

 

I also am beginning to think they won't tell us much about their plans in this regard until they are just about ready to roll it out, aside from assurances that it is in fact being worked on.

 

That said, a confirmation from the development team that it is in fact being worked on currently would go a long way to alleviating my frustration and disappointment. A well worded apology might also be nice - both options that Bioware could easily implement at present if they are inclined to do so.

Something that people tend to forget, or choose to overlook, or what have you when they feel they're speaking in a group is that the size of that group matters very much.

 

This thread has about 160 participants. The PvP forums have over 1600 participants. Complaints about Operation issues have even more participants.

 

You can get a strong feeling for how highly BioWare should be prioritizing things.

 

Keep in mind that to do this at all correctly they'd really probably want to get the voice actors back in the booth to touch up dialogues so there aren't awkward stilted moments.

 

The first paid content expansion would be the most likely candidate but you cannot help but feel if that's one of the major selling points they're going to lose even more frustrated PvP players. It's up to BW what sort of audience they want to cultivate, but let's be honest: they're after the strongest profits, so expect numbers to win out.

[Nozybidaj]

This is an absolutely horrific idea that would suck all the character out of companions..

 

Okay then, just make all the romance options strictly same gander romance options then. No, none, zero, nadda OGRA's. Then lets see how "horrific" people think the companions being hero-sexual would be.

 

Comments like this always make me shake my head and laugh. They obviously don't want to allow any same gender relationships but are too worried about being seen as a bigot to say so.

[Leoroc]

Big difference is PvP players are all arguing for different things. SGRA fans are a bit more cohesive. Also the two things require two wholly separate departments (writing/voice acting vs coding/balance) so it isn't an either/or.

 

It would go a really long way if they just told us how and when they plan to implement it. Some people may be a bit disappointed by whatever method they pick but doubtful any will be enraged.

[elexier]

Something that people tend to forget, or choose to overlook, or what have you when they feel they're speaking in a group is that the size of that group matters very much.

 

This thread has about 160 participants. The PvP forums have over 1600 participants. Complaints about Operation issues have even more participants.

 

 

The problem with that is that all the PvPers are talking about different things, wanting different things buffed/nurfed/removed/added ect.

 

Operation issues is balancing again completely different department.

 

We are all after same gender romance, Were unified in what we want, The discussion is how to implement it, and wanting to know when its being aimed for release.

[MusedMoose]

Here's a thought for those worried about SGRs being OOC for some companions:

 

Playing your character is playing their story. That story is theirs and theirs alone. In that story, it's your character who's the hero. It's your character who saves the Esseles from the Empire or takes over the Black Talon, depending on which side you're on and assuming you do that FP. It's your character who solves peoples' problems and makes life better across several different planets.

 

Therefore, what happens in others' stories really doesn't affect yours - your story creates your personal canon, wherein your character acts how you want them to. Your character might take a mission to retrieve a long-lost treasure, while another might ignore it, leaving that treasure still buried. The people your character decides to save, another's character might kill without a second thought. The companions that your character always travels with might be doing nothing but crafting for another's character, even if they're the same companions. And since their companions are not your companions, why would those companions always have to have the same sexuality?

 

To give a more specific example, if two Jedi Knights can make wildly different decisions and yet still both be Jedi Knights, what's to stop Kira from falling for both of them in their stories, even if one's male and one's female?

 

As for the idea that these companions are in OGRs now and that means they're straight, I disagree. They only have the option to be in OGRs now. If a companion was written to refuse SGR/OGR and outright said they were straight/gay, then that would be different. But as it stands now, they're only able to go one way, so anything's possible once that changes.

[MoogleNut]

 

This thread has about 160 participants. The PvP forums have over 1600 participants. Complaints about Operation issues have even more participants.

 

 

Keep in mind also, that not all gay gamers are as open as some of us are. I'm one of the lucky ones in that I can happily live my life out of the closet (have done for the past 20 years), as I have very open minded family and friends, as well as living in a country that is tolerant (England).

 

Not every LGBT person has this luxury.

 

There may only be 160 or so of us (and tolerant straight gamers - thank you to those ) openly discussing the issue, but you can bet there are a lot more out there who for very valid reasons are unable/unwilling to. We represent those gamers as well as ourselves

[Rayla_Felana]

Keep in mind also, that not all gay gamers are as open as some of us are. I'm one of the lucky ones in that I can happily live my life out of the closet (have done for the past 20 years), as I have very open minded family and friends, as well as living in a country that is tolerant (England).

 

Not every LGBT person has this luxury.

 

There may only be 160 or so of us (and tolerant straight gamers - thank you to those ) openly discussing the issue, but you can bet there are a lot more out there who for very valid reasons are unable/unwilling to. We represent those gamers as well as ourselves

 

Yeh, if people want a real total of people on these forums alone that want SGRAs, people should remember the original SGRA thread that for nearly a month had a new thread made EVERY day, sometimes every few hours, because they repeatedly hit the 1000 posts marker, simple as that.

 

But back on the original topic, I maintain that some current companions be turned bisexual, some left the same, and new ones added in for SGRAs and OGRAs, that are unlockable over time, including new major expansions.

[Nozybidaj]

 

But back on the original topic, I maintain that some current companions be turned bisexual, some left the same, and new ones added in for SGRAs and OGRAs, that are unlockable over time, including new major expansions.

 

And who decides which ones? What if the ones you are interested in don't get same gender options? What if your whole class doesn't get any same gender options? The fairest is to allow the players to choose which companions they want to pursue romances with. Personally I feel that all this "it ruins the character" nonsense is just a bunch of, well, nonsense. All creating artificial limitations on the options does is limit the options. It doesn't magically make the characters more interesting.

 

As for new companions, that is so far down the road as to not even bother talking about. We'll probably get new companions about as often as we get new classes. /shrug

Edited January 29, 2012 by Nozybidaj

[Niccali]

And who decides which ones? What if the ones you are interested in don't get same gender options? What if your whole class doesn't get any same gender options? The fairest way to all players is to allow the players to choose which companions they want to pursue romances with. Personally I feel that all this "it ruins the character" nonsense is just a bunch of, well, nonsense. All creating artificial limitations on the options does is limit the options. It doesn't magically make the characters more interesting.

Ok, so who really thinks that they have ANY say on this topic as to when/how or if same sex relationships ever get implemented?

 

Do these threads/posts get taken to heart by BW and they plan their development around what the people say/think/rant should happen? It's naiive to think that the tail (this and these types of threads) somehow "wags the dog" and sets policy for Bioware..

 

Same sex will happen when it happens, lets let Bioware focus on the important issues first like fixing the bugs we all know are in the game that should have a higher priority anyway..

 

Right now, compared to those, playing a female character just to see if I can turn Mako on doesnt seem like it should be all that important.

 

I may be wrong but I'm just sayin..... Oh, and whenever it does happen to make it's way in to the game, maybe I'll try it, maybe I wont but until it's actually been implemented, I've got far more important things to worry about and if I'm level 40, 50 or whatever the level cap is when it comes, it'll just be one more thing to keep me occupied and engaged with the game...

Edited January 29, 2012 by Niccali

[Nozybidaj]

Ok, so who really thinks that they have ANY say on this topic as to when/how or if same sex relationships ever get implemented?

 

Do these threads/posts get taken to heart by BW and they plan their development around what the people say/think/rant should happen? It's naiive to think that the tail (this and these types of threads) somehow "wags the dog" and sets policy for Bioware..

 

Same sex will happen when it happens, lets let Bioware focus on the important issues first like fixing the bugs we all know are in the game that should have a higher priority anyway..

 

Right now, compared to those, playing a female character just to see if I can turn Mako on doesnt seem like it should be all that important.

 

I may be wrong but I'm just sayin.....

 

/shrug BW says they are listening. Only one way to find out.

 

And I seriously doubt the folks who do the bug fixing are the same folks who do PvP tweaks or who do the FP planning or who do the implementation of same gender romance content. Teams the size of the one BW would need to continue maintaining this game are split into different areas of responsibility for a reason.

Edited January 29, 2012 by Nozybidaj

[Niccali]

/shrug BW says they are listening. Only one way to find out.

Oh I fully agree and dont doubt for one second that they are listening, but I was making the point that while they may listen, I dont really think that their content release timetable is influenced by us debating/discussing/ranting about something in the forums.

 

Now if let's say 1/4 (or even 10%) of the original 1mil subscribers that were around on launch day suddenly quit "en masse" over lack of same sex companion character interaction, only then would there be some "moving this topic to the front of the line" discussion happening at BW to stem the tide of defectors, but we all know that's not going to happen eiher anytime soon (if at all) so....

 

A good indicator of when/if something's coming down the road is when it hits the PTS because when it's being tested there, then it's just a matter of time before it goes live as long as it doesn't break the game.

Edited January 29, 2012 by Niccali

[Raiellyn]

Same sex will happen when it happens, lets let Bioware focus on the important issues first like fixing the bugs we all know are in the game that should have a higher priority anyway..

 

I see your point, but the tone of this topic really doesn't fit that logic. We're not asking for Bioware to do the content now. We're not asking to be put at the front of the line. Man, we're not even asking to be *in* the line! (Technicality, seeing as how Bioware has already put us in the line. )

 

We're just looking for some information. Even a "hey, we're planning out how it might be implemented, and we're taking your ideas to heart" reply beyond the stock regurgitation of the same quote from pre-release would be enough for now. People just want to know how long of a wait we're looking at. If Bioware doesn't know, then they don't know. But it can't hurt to ask for an idea of how long it might be.

[nemhook]

As long as the companions of the same sex are not vocally suggestive when you walk onto your ship i have no problem with it, being forced however to listen to a companion say something Gay orientated when you have not progressed him that way is a big problem.

 

But that being said, they haven't even fixed the ones we have right now so until they are fixed and working then no other comps should be added.

[Niccali]

Sure I agree that my position on this doesnt fit the standard answer for "when" but it DOES actually address the "why" there's been no hard committment or any commentary really at all from BW on this topic other than "it's coming".

 

I understand the excitement and hope for understanding and tolerance that this concept brings to some players but at the same time I also think that patience is also something that needs to be more evident.

 

I'm sure that on the flip side BW knows how divisive it would be to the community to announce a hard date and make a committment to have same sex live by that date and then NOT make or meet it (for whatever rason) so they are instead choosing to not say anything that could be misconstrued for the time being.

 

So far we have assurances from BW it's coming and until/when or if they break their word, I beleive them.

 

I'm sure it cant be THAT easy to implement (legalities not withstanding) or else they would have had it done and in the game at launch. You know that for this, at a minimum they are going to have to involve their legal department to make sure that no obscenity laws are broken and any time that Vultures... err I mean lawyers are involved, things move at glacial paces. (no offense intended to any vultures living or dead is implied)

 

Bioware already releases patches and new content faster then WoW ever could so that alone shows me at least that Bioware is dedicated to giving us a quality experience in a reasonable timeframe so I expect no less when it comes to the idea of having same sex companion content in the game...

 

I personally would rather wait a few months for the content to be polished and ready then get it next week and find it rushed or lacking because Bioware bowed to pressure and released it before it's ready..

Edited January 29, 2012 by Niccali

[Rayla_Felana]

As long as the companions of the same sex are not vocally suggestive when you walk onto your ship i have no problem with it, being forced however to listen to a companion say something Gay orientated when you have not progressed him that way is a big problem.

 

But that being said, they haven't even fixed the ones we have right now so until they are fixed and working then no other comps should be added.

 

All of the OGRAs are started by repeatedly picking the Flirt option for the first couple of conversations, as long as you don't select them, they won't even make a move, nevermind be suggestive(except Kaliyo as she comes onto anything that lives), I see no reason why they would make SGRAs any different.

 

There are two completely different departments working on/will be working on bug fixes and SGRAs.

[Uluain]

You know that for this, at a minimum they are going to have to involve their legal department to make sure that no obscenity laws are broken and any time that Vultures... err I mean lawyers are involved, things move at glacial paces. (no offense intended to any vultures living or dead is implied)

I find this argument specious, as none of the existing OGRs move beyond anything beyond, at most, mild innuendo. There is no reason that SGRs should be any different. This would have been a point to consider before Bioware committed to the content, if it were a concern.

 

I personally would rather wait a few months for the content to be polished and ready then get it next week and find it rushed or lacking because Bioware bowed to pressure and released it before it's ready.

Do you feel that the game was ready for release as is? Personally, I find Bioware's commitment rings hollow with the game coming out with only opposite gender companion romances and opposite-gender NPC [Flirt] prompts, and no word since from Bioware regarding this issue except restating the pre-release "Post-launch" boilerplate.

 

Never mind me, though. I'll just go sit at the back of this bus.

[Uluain]

Ok, so who really thinks that they have ANY say on this topic as to when/how or if same sex relationships ever get implemented?

 

Do these threads/posts get taken to heart by BW and they plan their development around what the people say/think/rant should happen?

Bioware continuously states precisely that.

 

Right now, compared to those, playing a female character just to see if I can turn Mako on doesnt seem like it should be all that important.

It is important to those who want to experience the companion romance options but who are not interested in doing so in a context which excludes them. Which is where we are now.

 

I may be wrong but I'm just sayin..... Oh, and whenever it does happen to make it's way in to the game, maybe I'll try it, maybe I wont but until it's actually been implemented, I've got far more important things to worry about.

-nods- It doesn't matter to you. You don't care. We get that. That's fine.

 

But it is important to me. I do care. And having to see [Flirt] six times a day in an NPC conversation that never applies to me or my character only tends to drive the point home. Can you see that?

 

Really, to be equitable, companion romances should not have been included at all for anyone until they were able to implement it equitably. From that point of view, Bioware already made one development choice which tends to alienate some players. The only thing saving this situation is that these same players are so used to being alienated that the promise that something will be done some time can take the edge off it a bit.

 

But the more Bioware drags its feet on addressing the issue frankly in terms of reasonable time span, the more of an afterthought it seems.

 

Personally, I don't like being marginalized and while I am used to it, I am growingly increasingly disinclined to tolerate it. SGR "some time after launch" is a minor concession when OG NPC flirts are everywhere in-game right now.

[Vodalus]

Yeh, if people want a real total of people on these forums alone that want SGRAs, people should remember the original SGRA thread that for nearly a month had a new thread made EVERY day, sometimes every few hours, because they repeatedly hit the 1000 posts marker, simple as that.

 

But back on the original topic, I maintain that some current companions be turned bisexual, some left the same, and new ones added in for SGRAs and OGRAs, that are unlockable over time, including new major expansions.

 

I would agree that the ideal implementation would be as you've said above. This strengthens the "character" of each character by keeping them as individuals with their own desires. Sure, I might be disappointed if the character I really wanted a romance with were not of the orientation that worked for me, but that happens all the time with people and adds to the characters. . . as long as there were balanced options for all orientations. But. . .

 

Reality doesn't work that way. The number of romance options in the game is just too limited. If there were 5 of each gender for each class for whom romance was an option, then this could work. But there aren't. There are currently 1 or 2 romance options per companion gender for each class. That is not a large enough pool of characters to work with for making a balanced distribution that covers all of the options in your post above.

 

Ultimately, if they implemented it as such, it would turn out to be a case of "if you want F/F romance, you have to play class A, B, or C; if you want M/M romance you need to play class X, Y Z; if you want M/F you need to play class U, V, Y; if you want F/M romance you need to play class A, D, E."

 

It needs to be implemented in a way that balances across the classes, regardless of orientation. I just don't see how they could do that and still manage to divide them as above. Well, unless they surprised us all and doubled the companion character numbers with new characters. But I see 1 per class being added, maybe 2 if we are very lucky. And that would not be enough to distribute orientations evenly.

[Rayla_Felana]

I would agree that the ideal implementation would be as you've said above. This strengthens the "character" of each character by keeping them as individuals with their own desires. Sure, I might be disappointed if the character I really wanted a romance with were not of the orientation that worked for me, but that happens all the time with people and adds to the characters. . . as long as there were balanced options for all orientations. But. . .

 

Reality doesn't work that way. The number of romance options in the game is just too limited. If there were 5 of each gender for each class for whom romance was an option, then this could work. But there aren't. There are currently 1 or 2 romance options per companion gender for each class. That is not a large enough pool of characters to work with for making a balanced distribution that covers all of the options in your post above.

 

Ultimately, if they implemented it as such, it would turn out to be a case of "if you want F/F romance, you have to play class A, B, or C; if you want M/M romance you need to play class X, Y Z; if you want M/F you need to play class U, V, Y; if you want F/M romance you need to play class A, D, E."

 

It needs to be implemented in a way that balances across the classes, regardless of orientation. I just don't see how they could do that and still manage to divide them as above. Well, unless they surprised us all and doubled the companion character numbers with new characters. But I see 1 per class being added, maybe 2 if we are very lucky. And that would not be enough to distribute orientations evenly.

 

To be honest, I totally agree, I'm just dreaming of a perfect game, ah well.

[AckbarsHomegirl]

I have to say, honestly, that I am disappointed the SGRA were not included as intended for launch.

 

I'm alright with that, but I would imagine it would be easier (and possibly cheaper) to continue to work with their current voice acting staff to finish SGRA dialog and options rather than create all new ones.

 

I mean, personally, finding out I have to wait another six, seven months, to enjoy what I thought I was paying for is not very fun. I can imagine I am not the only one who would simply not play from the time of it being confirmed that -nothing- will be done for SGRAs to the first expansion or time frame until they are available in game. (Key word being 'Nothing')

 

Consider, say, out of the Some one to two million players TOR supposedly already has, 10-20% are adamant in the idea of having an SGRA, either with or without the current companion cast there is.

 

If that same group stopped playing for six months, assuming that would be as long as it takes to implement the SGRA options unsubbed for the time, that's money Bioware loses out on.

 

For Math's sake, we'll say there are only One Million TOR players, and that 10 percent of them are willing to stop playing this fantastic game till all options are available. Each pays month to month, at (Rounded for Math's sake.) $15USD a month.

 

1,000,000*.10=100,000. For number of players who, in the hypothetical situation, unsub for the time between now and SGRA release.

 

100,000*15=1,500,000. Or, the money 10% of players would pay every month.

 

1,500,000*6= 9,000,000. Or, the money Bioware loses out on from 100,000 fans not playing due to lack of SGRA, assuming six months is the time frame between now and SGRA release.

 

 

This is also not considering possible loss of business from people who would like SGRAs not buying the game and playing because Bioware -didn't- put them in.

 

 

Considering Brian Wilson of the SF Giants only made $6,500,000 Last year as a Major League Baseball Player, that is a lot of money for Bioware to lose out on, even considering how much it would cost to rehire voice actors and the staff required to implement the SGRAs back into the game.

 

I guess just food for thought.

Edited January 29, 2012 by AckbarsHomegirl

[Jovanna]

It goes beyond the core 10-20% too Homegirl. Plenty of heterosexual players (particularly male and female role-players) will roll gay characters and want that character to have all the available options.

[Kioma]

Did it occur to anyone that the reason why Bioware has said nothing more on this subject so far is because of exactly how rabid the SGRA crowd has become?

 

I do believe you're reading a fair bit into the responses here. To my mind by far the most 'rabid' group (if you really feel the need to use a term like 'rabid') is the group that jumps up and down on anyone even slightly defending the game and calling them a 'fanboi' and summarily dismissing every kind of input they have.

 

I just read a thread in the customer support forum where someone asked if people were sure the problem being encountered was just the game, and said that submitting bugs was a noble pursuit but that blaming the game without evidence (which I have most certainly seen people do) is unconstructive.

 

She immediately got branded a 'fanboi' and she wasn't even defending the game. She was just making a point about what is and is not constructive feedback.

 

In any case, irrespective of who is or isn't 'rabid', Bioware are running a game in which they have a global audience. Asking for information beyond 'it'll be a post-launch feature' is a fair enough sort of request, and given how wide their target audience is it's not terribly surprising that they'd get a lot of people asking for this information.

 

 

-----

 

 

For my part I'm not overly worried how they implement it as long as they do. At one point, a while ago now, a Bioware developer slapped down a gamer who said that he felt all non-OG content should be removed from Bioware games and I admit that when I read it I cheered. Bioware is progressive and we need more companies out there like it making this content.

 

A lot of people dislike how they implemented same-gender relationship options in Dragon Age 2 (usually without considering that bedding down with someone who has the same genitals as you might just be flat-out more accepted in Thedas than our world), but I say that irrespective of how well or badly it was done at least it was there.

 

I'd like it, for personal reasons, to incorporate the existing companions. I've become fond of Kira, and in beta testing I likewise became fond of Mako. But even if they say 'all existing companions are straight - or are straight/bi/gay but don't like your species,' and they then put in new characters that we can interact with, at least the content will be there.

 

Then if you like it, pursue it. If you don't like it, don't. And if Doc comes on to you in the hold of your ship you still have the option of slapping him down (even if you have to do it twice to cool his ardour).

[Gemin]

I'd say it is more than likely the VO for same gender romances with the current companions is already recorded. They simply chose not to allow its implementation. As such if they did so choose to allow same gender romances it would likely be a rather trivial thing for them to implement.

 

 

That is exactly what I was saying. Didn't I say that? lol, anyway, I agree and that is what I believe. I suspect the "choosing not to allow it to happen part" was affected by "external influences" that I won't speculate on. I think they are just waiting for a "go ahead" from some higher ups.

[Innocentone]

I doubt that they would have to change any voice acting . I've been watching corso talk to my smuggler in cantinas and so far alot would seem to work with both male and females.

[Kioma]

I doubt that they would have to change any voice acting . I've been watching corso talk to my smuggler in cantinas and so far alot would seem to work with both male and females.

 

Makes you wonder if they already had that in mind, eh.