ThisGuyThat Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 I'm at 60 valor and have over 500 expertise, so it's not for a lack of having it that I'm wondering, but I see a lot of people talking about how expertise of equal amounts "cancel each other out". However, the % values of reduction and increase are the same and thus do not simply cancel out, unless Bioware was incredibly ignorant of math and implemented % as some kind of static-value change. For example 100 damage:+10% damage and -10% damage=99 damage. 1% difference, but this scales with increased expertise, and when we're talking about thousands of damage it starts to matter. In combination with healing buff this is an obvious bonus to 'health' so to speak, nerfing damage and the value of damage when it can be healed away easily. Or am I missing something, as in the title? Does 400 expertise really cancel 400 expertise in defiance of math? If so what does this imply about expertise imbalances, such as 500 vs 200? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SandTrout Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 (edited) Your math is correct, but the resulting reduced damage in negligible on the scales we're dealing with. It functionally cancels itself out except with regards to healing, which has no counter-effect included in expertise. Edited January 17, 2012 by SandTrout Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThisGuyThat Posted January 17, 2012 Author Share Posted January 17, 2012 (edited) Your math is correct, but the resulting reduced damage in negligible on the scales we're dealing with that it functionally cancels itself out except with regards to healing, which has no counter-effect included in expertise. Why is 10% important and 1% not? If 500 expertise stomps someone without it, shouldn't 1/10th of the difference in that stomp also be acknowledged? The importance is that it is a scaling buff to health pools and more healing, meaning that self-healing powertechs, for example, should be better and better as everyone gears up, because in full battlemaster gear this powertech is not simply getting a bonus to healing, but with 20k HP would be getting 250+ more effective HP (more than 10% expertise difference). Basically, in a meta such as this everyone gearing up won't simply be tier 1 vs tier 1= tier 2 vs tier 2. Tanks and the healers that support them will be on a linear incline of effectiveness with equal gear. Project to the future here: the balance at tier 1 of pvp cannot also be balanced at tier 3... Edited January 17, 2012 by ThisGuyThat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soazak Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Basically, in a meta such as this everyone gearing up won't simply be tier 1 vs tier 1= tier 2 vs tier 2. Tanks and the healers that support them will be on a linear incline of effectiveness with equal gear. Project to the future here: the balance at tier 1 of pvp cannot also be balanced at tier 3... Although, it does seem to be balanced at the higher tiers, the increased healing effectiveness makes BM v BM premades quite fun.. can't predict how it will be beyond Battlemaster though, with so many people getting it now, can't be too long before another tier is implemented. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SandTrout Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 it's a 1% damage reduction, but it's a 1% damage reduction on both parties, meaning only that the theoretically average fight will last 1% longer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThisGuyThat Posted January 17, 2012 Author Share Posted January 17, 2012 it's a 1% damage reduction, but it's a 1% damage reduction on both parties, meaning only that the theoretically average fight will last 1% longer. The "win condition" for a tank is often to simply stall for long enough. Also when trying to focus down a ball carrier, point defender, etc. what we'll see is not simply 1% longer but that with increasing expertise this becomes harder and harder. If the goal was for both players to kill each other there should be no balance difference, but the fact is that when factoring in that many damage classes rely on burst in pvp this additional survival will change many scenarios, particularly when the receiver of the damage is struggling to stall for another CD. Let me be clear, excluding healing (as this is a separate issue with expertise), as everyone gets better and better gear the class balance will shift from whatever it is now to, gradually, favoring tanks and sustained dps'ers (as compared to now, whatever the balance may be). It might just be 1% (it is a bit more than that), but how many talents have 1% more damage? Or 1% more crit chance? These things add up... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Humus_ Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 To OP: Did you test this ? cause what you are saying is that the formula for inc dmg would be: (base dmg * expertise of shooter) * expertise of receiver. ( 100 * 110%) *90% = 99 while it might just be : Base dmg * ( expertise of shooter - expertise of receiver) 100 * (110%-10%) = 100 It's kinda the difference between percents and percentile points. I assume they have really nerdy math guys for this stuff and would not make a percent vs percentile points mistake (as it is pretty basic stuff in dmg calcs) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snuff Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 I"m not to sure what you guys are talking about. Take expertise out of it. If everyone gets the highest end PVE gear thier HP pool will be higher. Expertise is a wash player vs player if you both have the same amount. That stat is mainly there to give those of us who grow up in pure pvp at 50 an advantage over the guy who has been farming flahspoints. It sucks when a non pvper comes up and can kill you because he got a better drop from a dungeon then you could possibly have. Healing will be more powerful but they have kept that in check, we already have a debuff to healing in pvp. Right now opeartaives and scoundrals seem ery overpowered. Maybe after more people have a larger HP pool the fights against thier stun locking will be better Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neurosisxeno Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 To OP: Did you test this ? cause what you are saying is that the formula for inc dmg would be: (base dmg * expertise of shooter) * expertise of receiver. ( 100 * 110%) *90% = 99 while it might just be : Base dmg * ( expertise of shooter - expertise of receiver) 100 * (110%-10%) = 100 It's kinda the difference between percents and percentile points. I assume they have really nerdy math guys for this stuff and would not make a percent vs percentile points mistake (as it is pretty basic stuff in dmg calcs) It would be unusual for them to add and subtract the 10% as it's own value. It's more likely they have it setup to calculate your damage, then apply the extra 10%, and then take the total value and apply it to the defense which has the expertise of the other person added in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts