Do you support an in game version of Recount. Please give reasons for your answer.

[TheSkate]

A trend I'm noticing is a thought process spawned from the informal logical fallacy of *** hoc ergo propter hoc. It is the false assumption that the correlation of two things means that one causes the other.

 

For instance, some are saying, "WoW has Recount. WoW has a significantly large immature audience. Therefore, Recount causes the immature audience. Recount in SWTOR will cause the same thing to happen since recount causes immaturity in WoW."

 

But this kind of statement is non sequitur in that WoW having recount has absolutely nothing to do with causing people to be immature.

 

So ask yourself this honest question before posting: Is it possible this negative could exist independent of recount?

 

Of course negative exists without recount. However with recount they will focus on one or two people that are not min/maxed, spam that they suck and drive those people away form the game.

 

How is this for a Latin phrase? ab abusu ad usum non valet consequentia. People don't lose their right to be a jerk just because they are a jerk. But they should earn a place on everyone's /ignore list.

Edited February 15, 2012 by Notannos

[Navakai]

Any game that intends to be competitive, whether it be in pve, or in pvp needs these tools.

 

Anyone arguing against this is holding the game back.

 

Personally, if these tools aren't implemented, it's a deal breaker for me. I won't continue to play.

 

If I have nothing to 'refine', and 'work on' in terms of my own personal development within the game, I have zero interest in it.

 

 

I'm sure I'm not alone here.

[Nexusissei]

Of course negative exists without recount. It is just highly enhanced BY recount. Without recount the idiots posting the "blah, blah, you all suck" comments really hurt no one but themselves. However with recount they will focus on one or two people that are not min/maxed, spam that they suck and drive those people away form the game.

 

How is this for a Latin phrase? ab abusu ad usum non valet consequentia. People don't lose their right to be a jerk just because they are a jerk. But they should earn a place on everyone's /ignore list.

 

You must have played a different game from myself or just had some bad luck, because in my many years of playing WoW, it is an extreme rarity to come across someone who whined about someone's position on the DPS meter. Even on a PvP server where the maturity level is notoriously lower, it wasn't like that. On occasion, we'd get someone who complained ad nauseam (unfounded complaints mind you) about another player in the group and they would just get kicked.

 

Now, is there a time when those complaints are valid? Absolutely. In such a case, the person who the complaints are against needs to swallow his ego and realize he has some more work to do on his character before he attempts the content again.

 

So first we'd have to determine in which camp is the player against whom the complaints are being lodged before making a judgment of who's being a jerk and who isn't.

 

So you support the use of Recount I take it?

Edited February 4, 2012 by Nexusissei

[TheSkate]

So you support the use of Recount I take it?

 

Nope. I would support a personal DPS meter IF there must be a meter at all. People that really want to compare their e-peen with others can take a screen shot to prove it's size.

[TheSkate]

Any game that intends to be competitive, whether it be in pve, or in pvp needs these tools.

 

Anyone arguing against this is holding the game back.

 

Personally, if these tools aren't implemented, it's a deal breaker for me. I won't continue to play.

 

If I have nothing to 'refine', and 'work on' in terms of my own personal development within the game, I have zero interest in it.

 

 

I'm sure I'm not alone here.

 

I think they intend to be competitive in the game market, not to be a game about competition which is what you seem to think "be competitive" means.

[Dunklezhan]

If a DPS meter does get added to the game, I feel it must be self-only (which I believe is currently Bioware's intent) and that it not come with a button to publish the stats to the chat window (If players really want to talk about it, they should type it out themselves). I believe raiders would enjoy a way to auto-publish their stats to the team leader. I oppose giving this ability to the masses in random teams, but if this could be limited to operation groups I would find it acceptable.

 

Agreed mostly.

 

 

That site is a useful tool for people interested in maxing their performance. As is recount. You can still do fun raids with friends or pugs without them. If someone is demanding you use a certain spec or do certain dps, find other people to run with.

 

The main problem with this can be seen by logging into WoW. The whole "improvement" ideal snowballed into something ugly and when you go to the LFG tool for random instances and raids there is always some dood in charge who boots folks because they don't have all the bells and whistles; or are a meer 10-15% less dps then the other people of said class. Great idea, but in the hands of the masses it just forces you to conform.

 

No, recount is unnecessary. Many times it simply leads to a DPS race which gets the group wiped and the healer trying to keep multiple people up.

 

IT'S NOT FUN.

 

Agreed 100%

 

Discussion threads, tooltip ability analysis, and spreadsheet modeling combined with in-game trials are useful tools for people interested in maximizing their performance.

 

You can still participate in challenging content with skilled players without Recount/Meters.

 

If you are demanding that Meters are needed for you to have fun, find another game to play.

(Oh.... look what I did there )

 

Really sticking to that "I'm not ignoring you you're ignoring ME" tactic aren't you? Claiming all the posts opposing you are ignoring you or spouting gibberish is over simplifying it just a tad though.

 

There is one MASSIVE hole in the standard "I just want to improve myself" recount argument... ...none of you guys want one that only tracks your own stats.

You're throwing a sheet over the elitist banthas*** and hoping we don't notice.

 

Basically my thought is something like this could be implemented for self use and guild use only. I don't want some guy telling me i need to swap 5 points of my spec into something else and grind for 20 hours for a certain piece of gear before letting me join a random instance found via LFG tools. I will conform only for those I call friends and guild mates, not for some 13 year old with a Napolean complex. To those trying to force me into this situation: I say Good Day sir!

 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sabii

meters are good tools, so is a hammer, but if you put a hammer in the hands of a hyper active attention starved chimp no good can come of it.

 

Pretty much sums it up don't you think?

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Nexusissei]

Nope. I would support a personal DPS meter IF there must be a meter at all. People that really want to compare their e-peen with others can take a screen shot to prove it's size.

 

If you don't support it because of people using it to act childish, as you say, why would you say, "ab abusu ad usum non valet consequentia," as part of your argument? That means that the tool is useful despite possible exploitation. (i.e. We should not ban hammers since they are still useful tools despite the fact that some people may commit murder with them.)

 

Furthermore, "e-peens" has nothing to do with any of this. You're purposefully disregarding valid arguments that are contrary to your belief for the convenience of your argument.

Edited February 5, 2012 by Nexusissei

[Dunklezhan]

If you don't support it because of people using it to act childish, as you say, why would you say, "ab abusu ad usum non valet consequentia," as part of your argument? That means that the tool is useful despite possible exploitation. (i.e. We should not ban hammers since they are still useful tools despite the fact that some people may commit murder with them.)

 

Furthermore, "e-peens" has nothing to do with any of this. You're purposefully disregarding valid arguments that are contrary to your belief for the convenience of your argument.

 

So much writing and so little said.

 

A. Most everyone supports self usable meters.

B. You don't need to monitor what I or anyone else around you does. Some of the hardest raid mobs in all of gaming have been done without:

1. Macros

2. Meters

3. Vent/TS

 

Again, it would seem most everyone on here has no problems with self meters. You don't need anything more then that to improve your performance. You don't need to monitor my performance to make your performance better and anyone claming it's for team use should be able to count on their team members to monitor themselves like adults.

[Nexusissei]

So much writing and so little said.

 

A. Most everyone supports self usable meters.

B. You don't need to monitor what I or anyone else around you does. Some of the hardest raid mobs in all of gaming have been done without:

1. Macros

2. Meters

3. Vent/TS

 

Again, it would seem most everyone on here has no problems with self meters. You don't need anything more then that to improve your performance. You don't need to monitor my performance to make your performance better and anyone claming it's for team use should be able to count on their team members to monitor themselves like adults.

 

There's really no need to make personal attacks in your arguments like those immature children would make that you so don't want to be here.

 

Macros, meters and voice chat make things easier or better to understand. They're not even "needed" in WoW. The lack of absolute need is not evidence supporting not having it. If I'm leading a raid, knowing my entire team's DPS/HPS/DTPS/etc. helps me determine better compositions for the raid, whether the raid is geared well for the encounter or it's a mechanics issue, what players are taking the most damage and possibly what damage could be avoided for the entire raid.

 

So when I say you're conveniently ignoring facts and making it all about "e-peens", it's because you're making a strawman argument. Ignore all the compelling evidence and reasoning and argue that it's about ego boosting only. That's just not right.

Edited February 5, 2012 by Nexusissei

[Kelticfury]

The people that don't want damage meters are just plain....silly( keeping it respectful )

 

Im tired of mashing random buttons THINKING I know my best rotation, when you can only really know this with numbers proving it.

 

Are you unable to see the damage numbers that float up around your enemy everytime you do damage?

 

Spurious argument is spurious.

[Nexusissei]

Are you unable to see the damage numbers that float up around your enemy everytime you do damage?

 

Spurious argument is spurious.

 

Are you able to parse that damage accurately and easily within a tenth of a second?

[Kelticfury]

Are you able to parse that damage accurately and easily within a tenth of a second?

 

I can see whats hitting hard and whats hitting for crap, so yeah i guess I don't need a damage meter to tell me how to do my rotation.

 

I am all for combat logs, but claiming you can't tell how you are performing without a dmg meter crutch is just BS.

[Nexusissei]

I can see whats hitting hard and whats hitting for crap, so yeah i guess I don't need a damage meter to tell me how to do my rotation.

 

I am all for combat logs, but claiming you can't tell how you are performing without a dmg meter crutch is just BS.

 

So what's better:

 

Skill A:

500-1500 damage 15% crit rate 3 second CD.

 

or Skill B:

2000-2500 damage 5% crit rate and 2 second CD.

 

You have one-tenth of a second to figure it out. Go.

 

Oh, sorry, you don't win the car, cash or fridge. Better luck next time.

[Kelticfury]

So what's better:

 

Skill A:

500-1500 damage 15% crit rate 3 second CD.

 

or Skill B:

2000-2500 damage 5% crit rate and 2 second CD.

 

You have one-tenth of a second to figure it out. Go.

 

Oh, sorry, you don't win the car, cash or fridge. Better luck next time.

 

You see the numbers of damage done, so in action you can tell which is better in a heartbeat.

 

Sorry for poking holes in your pet crusade dude, but get over it.

[Nexusissei]

You see the numbers of damage done, so in action you can tell which is better in a heartbeat.

 

Sorry for poking holes in your pet crusade dude, but get over it.

 

You completely disregard the temporal aspect of the issue and therefore you vastly oversimplify the issue to the point where you believe that just because you see big numbers, that's got to be better than lots of little numbers.

Edited February 5, 2012 by Nexusissei

[Kelticfury]

You completely disregard the temporal aspect of the issue and therefore you vastly oversimplify the issue to the point where you believe that just because you see big numbers, that's got to be better than lots of little numbers.

 

Make assumptions much? I have been playing MMOs for a long time, and I am quite aware that many small numbers can be > a few large numbers.

 

But keep assuming and claiming vociferously just how hard it is for you. Personally I wouldn't be so proudly claiming how unable I am to tell how I am doing without a crutch to figure it out for me. Anything I can't figure out by observing my character's performance, I'll be able to figure out using the combat log (once its available). You seem to be trying to make it sound like its a huge roadblock of a task, when its really not.

[Nexusissei]

Make assumptions much? I have been playing MMOs for a long time, and I am quite aware that many small numbers can be > a few large numbers.

 

But keep assuming and claiming vociferously just how hard it is for you. Personally I wouldn't be so proudly claiming how unable I am to tell how I am doing without a crutch to figure it out for me. Anything I can't figure out by observing my character's performance, I'll be able to figure out using the combat log (once its available). You seem to be trying to make it sound like its a huge roadblock of a task, when its really not.

 

I didn't make assumptions. You stated that you can see from the numbers what's hitting hard and what's hitting for crap.

 

I don't know of anyone, including most likely you, that's capable of writing down/adding up numbers as quickly as they're appearing over an enemy's head (assuming all numbers show up) and then keep accurate time to within a tenth of a second by which to divide the sum. Let's say you are one of the few people in the world that might be able to accomplish such a feat (which you probably aren't). Can you do it while in a boss fight and worried about mechanics? Can you do it at the same time you're watching incoming healing and damage? No human that I've ever heard of is capable of such things.

Edited February 5, 2012 by Nexusissei

[Kelticfury]

I didn't make assumptions. You stated that you can see from the numbers what's hitting hard and what's hitting for crap.

 

I said damage done, not what hits hard or doesn't, that was your assumption.

 

Carry on with your crusade.

 

Like I said, its not that hard to tell how effective you are.

[Nexusissei]

I said damage done, not what hits hard or doesn't, that was your assumption.

 

Carry on with your crusade.

 

Like I said, its not that hard to tell how effective you are.

 

I quote you (copy and paste from your own comment) as saying, "I can see whats hitting hard and whats hitting for crap..."

 

So, no you didn't say "damage done."

 

Now do you really think you could add up all those numbers and divide in real time like a meter can? Look, we both know you're just talking smack here and you're just trying to backpedal out of it. Just apologize, don't post here anymore, and move on.

[Kelticfury]

I quote you (copy and paste from your own comment) as saying, "I can see whats hitting hard and whats hitting for crap..."

 

So, no you didn't say "damage done."

 

Now do you really think you could add up all those numbers and divide in real time like a meter can? Look, we both know you're just talking smack here and you're just trying to backpedal out of it. Just apologize, don't post here anymore, and move on.

 

Oh so you aren't talking about the text you actually quoted, you are going several posts back.

Good game.

 

And of course I don't do idiot savant math in my head, you don't need to. You can tell through simple observation what works and what doesn't, but make it out to be a huge issue, because you are personally so unable to see what is right in front of your face. I am not buying it and I doubt anyone else is either.

 

I support the combat log, but damage meters are not needed in swtor. there are no 40 man raids where all you can see of the ridiculously large enemy is their knee.

 

If you can't see whats effective and what isn't through simple observation, thats your problem, not mine. I don't need some program to tell me how I am doing, I can see it happening.

 

We are just going to have to agree to disagree, and no matter how much you want to force your belief, you will never convince me that a damage meter is needed in order to play this game effectively.

[Nexusissei]

Oh so you aren't talking about the text you actually quoted, you are going several posts back.

Good game.

 

And of course I don't do idiot savant math in my head, you don't need to. You can tell through simple observation what works and what doesn't, but make it out to be a huge issue, because you are personally so unable to see what is right in front of your face. I am not buying it and I doubt anyone else is either.

 

I support the combat log, but damage meters are not needed in swtor. there are no 40 man raids where all you can see of the ridiculously large enemy is their knee.

 

If you can't see whats effective and what isn't through simple observation, thats your problem, not mine. I don't need some program to tell me how I am doing, I can see it happening.

 

We are just going to have to agree to disagree, and no matter how much you want to force your belief, you will never convince me that a damage meter is needed in order to play this game effectively.

 

Let me make this perfectly clear: I'm not here to convince you of anything -- I'm asking that you stop your blatant trolling.

 

Oh so you aren't talking about the text you actually quoted, you are going several posts back.

Good game.

 

Comments like this regarding a quote from this page of the thread 3 posts above where I referenced it is clearly not going back "several posts" and is just an attempt to avoid confronting your faux pas in hopes that the trolling can continue. Just stop.

[Kelticfury]

Let me make this perfectly clear: I'm not here to convince you of anything -- I'm asking that you stop your blatant trolling.

 

 

 

Comments like this regarding a quote from this page of the thread 3 posts above where I referenced it is clearly not going back "several posts" and is just an attempt to avoid confronting your faux pas in hopes that the trolling can continue. Just stop.

 

If you wanted to quote that text you should have quoted that text, not the one you DID quote where I clearly said damage done. and fyi several = 3 or more.

 

And now I understand, disagreeing with you is trolling.

 

Have a good night crusading.

Edited February 5, 2012 by Kelticfury

[Nexusissei]

If you wanted to quote that text you should have quoted that text, not the one you DID quote where I clearly said damage done. and fyi several = 3 or more.

 

And now I understand, disagreeing with you is trolling.

 

Have a good night crusading.

 

No, ignoring arguments and miring the debate in semantics for, I believe, the purpose of miring the debate is trolling.

Edited February 5, 2012 by Nexusissei

[swiftintruder]

He77 no , recount make players worst socially and performance wise. Ex: people worry more about topping dps than moving out of fire or not taking damage making healers save their a$%&es instead of healing tanks.

IF there ever is a recount its personal only, you cant see anyone elses. Ive seen people in worst gear possible beat content, I bet they werent breaking dps records so a small % boost matters little.

[Kelticfury]

No, ignoring arguments and miring the debate in semantics for, I believe, the purpose of miring the debate is trolling.

 

Dude get off your horse for a moment.

 

I have stated several times, exactly what I feel about this issue, you are the one going on and on about math and trying to force your opinion. You are so narrowly focused on the idea that you must be correct that you don't want to allow anyone else their opinion. So again, you will not convince me through your arguments when my direct experience tells me otherwise.

 

Again, I support the combat log, but no I do not support the need for a dmg meter or recount and I think that anyone so adamantly trying to claim that the lack of a damage meter is a game breaker is just making an issue out of nothing.