DevonLoy Posted January 16, 2012 Author Share Posted January 16, 2012 Possibly party makeup. Might need a DPS off-tank if multiples have boss immunities. But in general from the first post you wrote, I'd have guessed CC. I used gaurd on our sentinel so I was trying to balance out his tanking and dps. so that the healer would have more focus on me if he took damage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DevonLoy Posted January 16, 2012 Author Share Posted January 16, 2012 So which ones were doing the damage? How much damage were you taking? Was it more than the healer could theoretically output? Were the mobs dying at a rate to enable success? Were dps focusing fire? Get a lot of speculation here. The data you want to look at is in game.. well.. it's not, but hey whatever. Think real hard. I'm really looking for help here guys (I don't want this to turn into a combat log post.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mannic Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 Healer also needs to use his aggro dump if he has mobs on him. Not 100% sure if ALL healers have one, but I know Mercs and Operatives do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheHeadCapper Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 Healer also needs to use his aggro dump if he has mobs on him. Not 100% sure if ALL healers have one, but I know Mercs and Operatives do. Commandos and BH do as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cmdluke Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 Healer also needs to use his aggro dump if he has mobs on him. Not 100% sure if ALL healers have one, but I know Mercs and Operatives do. Sage/Sorc definitely has one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DevonLoy Posted January 16, 2012 Author Share Posted January 16, 2012 Healer also needs to use his aggro dump if he has mobs on him. Not 100% sure if ALL healers have one, but I know Mercs and Operatives do. He was a smuggler by the way if I forgot to mention that (We completed it with a sage) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aryzyra Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 I'm really looking for help here guys (I don't want this to turn into a combat log post.) Well, honestly we don't know what you were doing as a tank, how much damage you were taking, how much healing the healer was doing, or how much damage the dpsers were doing. It's a math problem, but you have no variables defined. Maybe the healer was playing poorly. Maybe the healer was undergeared. Maybe the tank was undergeared for the strategy. Maybe the dps were just being terrible and drawing the fight out. Maybe there were other issues. Lots of possible problems. Bottom line, which isn't particularly helpful: If you're taking more damage than the healer can deal with, then try to take less damage. Meh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalfear Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 (edited) Now I know from past MMO experience, that if the Tank dies and you wipe, usually it means that the Tank was holding enough damage to drop him quickly (me in this case) and the healer did not heal enough. And that folks is why I rarely PUG anymore! I dont know this guy or who his healer was or what they played like but reading his discription Im left wondering Why wasnt one of the 4 CCd? And since he makes no mention of it at all and talks about his great tanking ability (plus I had the misfortune one day of meeting a jedi knight who said almost the same thing as this write up but left out a clear point) Why were you breaking cc on 1 or 2 or even 3 of the 4? Ive done Mando Raiders many times and you can cc that group so no tank EVER has all 4 on him/her. Unless they break cc constantly. again I dont know any of these people but the only time Ive seen healers freak out and drop is when someone being a idiot and then blaming the healer! Your story misses key points that suggest you were not as good a tank as you say and maybe the healer wasnt as bad as you say. Group of 4 players, AT LEAST ONE of the 4 should be on a 60 sec cc, if not 2-3 of them. So if your facing 3-4 mobs from the 4 group, thats on THE ENTIRE GROUP! Not just the healer! Oh and btw, Ive done that with Trooper (100% heal), Sage (100% heal), Sorc (100% heal) and no healer can out heal the damage done by all 4 at once. I doubt anyone at level could out heal 3 on 1 either to be honest (but no group I been in ever been silly enough to try that head on WOW concept of straight DPS for the win). People, this not WOW, you cant just DPS for the win. TOR is NOT HARD but there is some tactics utilized in these flash point battles and you need to learn them! Or you will come to boards complaining a single healer cant out heal 4 elite level (or are they champs? I forget now) heroic mobs attacking 1 target. Sounds like you to be honest with out hearing all sides of the story! Problem would be solved with combat logs/meters. Just sayin LOL no it wouldnt This problem clear CAUSED by the Damage meter mentality of more damage = win Clear the problem here is not damage but tactics sad you dont see that! Edited January 16, 2012 by Kalfear Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DevonLoy Posted January 16, 2012 Author Share Posted January 16, 2012 Well, honestly we don't know what you were doing as a tank, how much damage you were taking, how much healing the healer was doing, or how much damage the dpsers were doing. It's a math problem, but you have no variables defined. Maybe the healer was playing poorly. Maybe the healer was undergeared. Maybe the tank was undergeared for the strategy. Maybe the dps were just being terrible and drawing the fight out. Maybe there were other issues. Lots of possible problems. Bottom line, which isn't particularly helpful: If you're taking more damage than the healer can deal with, then try to take less damage. Meh. Who's we your the only person asking that question and I stated most of that "info" if not specifically in numbers (which I dare you to try and remember after a couple hours) so just don't Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silkforcalde Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 I know that their aren't very many tanks in this game. I've met a few others but there about as rare as healers. Now I'm a tank (and one of the already few that tank specs) and it jerks my chain when I'm tanking a run on Mandalorian Raiders. I tank all the way to the 4 man boarding party. I die while tanking 3 to all 4 of them through the whole fight, while being healed, and we wipe. This of course makes the healer mad and he gets mad at me for not keeping them off him. So he up and leaves. (we got another one and completed the flashpoint but that's not the story here.) Now I know from past MMO experience, that if the Tank dies and you wipe, usually it means that the Tank was holding enough damage to drop him quickly (me in this case) and the healer did not heal enough. So my question is. Should I try and Tank less of a fight in order to make it easier on the healer, or should I just start looking for better healers. I need some tips here, If it's me I need to know, but if it's not me please help. EDIT (forgot to ask if it could just be the game) As someone that plays a healer, typically if the tank dies it's because I'm taking damage or someone else is taking damage from tanking a mob so I heal them or me, usually me. If I'm being attacked by a mob, my heals will get pushed back and I'll have to decide whether to keep you up or me up, if I die it's a wipe but if the tank dies it's not always a wipe so I almost always decide to keep myself up. That said, on that fight in particular you should use CC and only take one or two on at a time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DevonLoy Posted January 16, 2012 Author Share Posted January 16, 2012 And that folks is why I rarely PUG anymore! I dont know this guy or who his healer was or what they played like but reading his discription Im left wondering Why wasnt one of the 4 CCd? And since he makes no mention of it at all and talks about his great tanking ability (plus I had the misfortune one day of meeting a jedi knight who said almost the same thing as this write up but left out a clear point) Why were you breaking cc on 1 or 2 or even 3 of the 4? Ive done Mando Raiders many times and you can cc that group so no tank EVER has all 4 on him/her. Unless they break cc constantly. again I dont know any of these people but the only time Ive seen healers freak out and drop is when someone being a idiot and then blaming the healer! Your story misses key points that suggest you were not as good a tank as you say and maybe the healer wasnt as bad as you say. Group of 4 players, AT LEAST ONE of the 4 should be on a 60 sec cc, if not 2-3 of them. So if your facing 3-4 mobs from the 4 group, thats on THE ENTIRE GROUP! Not just the healer! Oh and btw, Ive done that with Trooper (100% heal), Sage (100% heal), Sorc (100% heal) and no healer can out heal the damage done by all 4 at once. I doubt anyone at level could out heal 3 on 1 either to be honest (but no group I been in ever been silly enough to try that head on WOW concept of straight DPS for the win). People, this not WOW, you cant just DPS for the win. TOR is NOT HARD but there is some tactics utilized in these flash point battles and you need to learn them! Or you will come to boards complaining a single healer cant out heal 4 elite level (or are they champs? I forget now) heroic mobs attacking 1 target. Sounds like you to be honest with out hearing all sides of the story! LOL no it wouldnt This problem clear CAUSED by the Damage meter mentality of more damage = win Clear the problem here is not damage but tactics sad you dont see that! Srry if I didnt edit the main post but we talked about all that stuff int the 3 1/2 pages after my post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silkforcalde Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 Need to have that Healer CC one(sage and scoundrel get 1 minute cc, dunno about the trooper lines), and if anyone else in your group can CC to get another one. CC is more important in this game than it has been in recent games. Trooper gets a 1 minute CC, I forget which level I got it on my trooper but it's called something like Concussive Shot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DevonLoy Posted January 16, 2012 Author Share Posted January 16, 2012 As someone that plays a healer, typically if the tank dies it's because I'm taking damage or someone else is taking damage from tanking a mob so I heal them or me, usually me. If I'm being attacked by a mob, my heals will get pushed back and I'll have to decide whether to keep you up or me up, if I die it's a wipe but if the tank dies it's not always a wipe so I almost always decide to keep myself up. That said, on that fight in particular you should use CC and only take one or two on at a time. The healer was never in danger of dying, but like I've said before I wasn't even aware if my party members had any CC abilitys Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DevonLoy Posted January 16, 2012 Author Share Posted January 16, 2012 Quick clarification in terms of level here if that helps anyone Healer lvl 30 or 31 Sentinel (DPS) lvl 36 Merc (DPS) lvl 24 Tank (Me) lvl 22 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cmdluke Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 The healer was never in danger of dying, but like I've said before I wasn't even aware if my party members had any CC abilitys sounds like it's on them, then. it would be highly unlikely (although I suppose possible) that no-one in your party had a 1 min CC ability. sounds like they just weren't using them. for a tank, especially if you are leading the party, it might be a good idea to have a rough idea of what other classes can do so you know how to organize each mob. When i lead a party, i know what all members can do. we spend a good 30 secs before each mob marking targets so everyone knows exactly what they are doing during that fight. it may take a bit longer, but its much easier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aryzyra Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 Who's we your the only person asking that question and I stated most of that "info" if not specifically in numbers (which I dare you to try and remember after a couple hours) so just don't "We" is everyone. If you're dying as a tank and thinking about blaming the healer, comparing damage taken to potential healing output is kind of a big deal. You could be taking more damage than the healer could theoretically heal. Or the healer might not be specced effectively, or could just be freezing up in combat and not casting. Lots of potential issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cmdluke Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 (edited) Quick clarification in terms of level here if that helps anyone Healer lvl 30 or 31 Sentinel (DPS) lvl 36 Merc (DPS) lvl 24 Tank (Me) lvl 22 I don't remember what lvl mando raiders is, but that seems like your problem right there. and how do you have a mercenary and a sentinel on the same team? Edited January 16, 2012 by Cmdluke Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lornalove Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 (edited) Hard to say without having been there, but I've never personally quit after one boss wipe, so I assume (and you know what they say about assumptions) that the healer thought the group was doing pretty darn bad, or maybe s/he was just having a bad day. Or maybe s/he was just a jerk, or embarrassed, or something else, I don't know. I always use the wipe as a learning experience and move on. Edited January 16, 2012 by lornalove Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mandrax Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 (edited) The healer was never in danger of dying, but like I've said before I wasn't even aware if my party members had any CC abilitys Next time you are in there, you need to ask. If you CC those guys the fight is very easy. If you don't, the healer can very easily get into trouble. Why take the risk? It's far quicker to CC the two and kill the other two, than trying to take on all four, wiping and all having to run back again. Just make sure you pull the two you are tanking away from the two that are CC'd in case some silly person decides to use their AoE and breaks the CC. Edited January 16, 2012 by Mandrax Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DevonLoy Posted January 16, 2012 Author Share Posted January 16, 2012 I don't remember what lvl mando raiders is, but that seems like your problem right there. I unlocked it at 21 I think. (Rare drops were 25) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cmdluke Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 I unlocked it at 21 I think. (Rare drops were 25) well if 2 party members were 10-15 lvls above the content, you shouldn't have had any problem at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wager Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 The Sentinel is 36? I solo'd this at 38. (I do it a lot for orange gear. Foundry is bugged, it gives Warrior drops instead of Inquisitor after the first boss.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DevonLoy Posted January 16, 2012 Author Share Posted January 16, 2012 The Sentinel is 36? I solo'd this at 38. (I do it a lot for orange gear. Foundry is bugged, it gives Warrior drops instead of Inquisitor after the first boss.) I thought foundry was an empire flashpoint. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RagnarokJC Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 I know that their aren't very many tanks in this game. I've met a few others but there about as rare as healers. Now I'm a tank (and one of the already few that tank specs) and it jerks my chain when I'm tanking a run on Mandalorian Raiders. I tank all the way to the 4 man boarding party. I die while tanking 3 to all 4 of them through the whole fight, while being healed, and we wipe. This of course makes the healer mad and he gets mad at me for not keeping them off him. So he up and leaves. (we got another one and completed the flashpoint but that's not the story here.) Now I know from past MMO experience, that if the Tank dies and you wipe, usually it means that the Tank was holding enough damage to drop him quickly (me in this case) and the healer did not heal enough. So my question is. Should I try and Tank less of a fight in order to make it easier on the healer, or should I just start looking for better healers. I need some tips here, If it's me I need to know, but if it's not me please help. EDIT (forgot to ask if it could just be the game) When a wipe happens. it can be due to a number of factors. For example, as a tank, you did your job in terms of grabbing aggro from most of the mobs. However, for a tank, you also have to consider whether you have enough damage mitigation abilities (shields, stun abilities, damage reduction, etc.). You also need to make sure that your gear is up to par for the instance that you're running. I've seen plenty of cases where the tank just wasn't geared enough for the content and his health bar dropped faster than the Titanic. Also, there may just be the possibility that there are just too many tough mobs for your group to handle all together. That's where CC abilities come in. Reduce the fight to 1-2 mobs at a time instead of 3-4 mobs, and things will be easier for everyone in your group. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PjPablo Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 Something like Recount could tell you exactly what's going but alas not allowed currently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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